northern ireland ethnic question

[nokhor]

what is the ethnic composition of northern ireland? are they ethnically all irish? or are the catholics irish and the protestants ethcnically british? or are they all ethnically british? or some other combination?

[ShadesPanther]

Well considering most of the protestants originally came from Scottland and some from England basically they are the same ethnically.

Alot of people that fight the "enemy catholic nationalists" and vise versa are mostly thugs or people who grow up in the poor areas of Belfast and other inner cities and don't really know any better and deonise the other side.

There are two main groups in Northern Ireland
Unionists who want Northern Ireland to stay part of the UK with Britain
and Nationalists who want a united Ireland. The majority of people in Northern Ireland are unionists (big note: The British are not forcing NI to stay with them, The majority wants to stay part of UK but it is a very sticky issue)

2001 Census


The elections
http://www.ark.ac.uk/elections/

UUP and DUP are unionist parties (DUP is more "extreme")
Sinn Fein and SDLP (Sinn Fein is more extreme)

[Duke of Gloucester]

Ethnicity is difficult to define, but I think it is hard to sustain a claim that the Protestant and Catholic communities are ethnically the same. Basically the Protestants are descended from people settled in Ulster in Tudor and Stuart times whereas the Catholics are descended from the original inhabitants. (It would be wrong to conclude from this that the Catholic population have more right to be there, although many of them would argue just that). Both communities have distinct and different cultures based on different religions, so I would say that they are ethnicallly distinct. However both communities could legitimately claim to be ethnically Irish. I believe that the conflict is ethnic rather than religous. Of course there has been a certain amount of intermarriage, but you can't be Protestant and Catholic, so you take your ethnicity from the religion your ancestors chose after the intermarriage.

Whilst it is true that the majority of people in Northern Ireland would like to remain British, this is the result of historic gerrymandering. The ancient Irish kingdom of Ulster comprises 9 counties - the 6 counties of Northern Ireland, plus Cavan, Monaghan and Donegal. Over the 9 counties there is a majority who would favour Irish unity. Northern Ireland is an invented entity to maintain a Unionist majority.

As shades says, it's a sticky issue. I wonder if this thread might find itself in the backroom.

[ShadesPanther]

Well, the British faced a very difficult decision just before the first world war, The infamous house of parliament act would make the 3rd home rule bill law and make Ireland pretty much independant. Both sides had created paramilitaries and a civil war would break out, but the First world war began and so the Unionist (technically they weren't unionist as there was no union ) paramilitary (the UVF, which still exists today) had most of its members sign up for the war and the Nationalist had their paramiliatary join "to earn their Home Rule".

Eire was formed in 1926 but Britain had a problem, 4 of the counties had a huge majority but as Duke of Gloucester said Ulster is 9 counties. 6 would givea safe majority and make Northern Ireland a reasonable size.
The main reason Northern Ireland is needed is because of the huge problems if there was a united Ireland.


for some reason I thought Ethnicity was only race and counted cultre as a different thing.
The cultre between the two groups is different but not hugely so. I would say its similar along the lines of The Irish in the Republic and the Scottish. Similar but not totally different.

It could be claimed that the unionists shouldnot be in Ulster to start with but The same claim could be made to everyone in USA Canada some Southern American countries, Australia, Southern Africa and many other non european countries. Complaining wont do anything, Unionists are going to leave just because what their (so many)x grandparents settled in an area is unfair.

[Kraxis]

Of course nobody should move out just because they had some ancestor that moved to the area. If we did that then the whole world would become a mishmash of peoples moving around forever as we would forever find more and more ancient peoples that had the 'right' to stay even more. It would solve nothing and it would be unfair in the extreme. Nothing any civilized people would do anyway.

That said, I was rather surprised at the rather slim majority of unionists, I thought it was more along the lines of 70/30 or less so 60/40 but this is almost 55/45 (even less in the last line in the second link presented by Panther).

I also think that a part of the Irish minor nobility survived the English 'invasion' and thus they too followed the higher nobility and became protestants, that has been the way all over the world at all times. The local elites will go to great lengths to retain their powers. Thus many of the protestants could claim to be as Irish as most of the catholics.

[Gregoshi]

As shades says, its a sticky issue. I wonder if this thread might find itself in the backroom.

This thread will go to the Backroom if it turns into a political exchange. It will be closed if it gets nasty. But, so far, so good unless I'm missing something.

[Steppe Merc]

They'd have a lot of Nordic, Celtic and people who lived there before the Celts blood. Everywhere in the world especillay Europe, the British Isles in particular(with the pre Celts, Celts, a smidge of Roman, Germanic, Nordic and Norman blood all thrown in) are very mixed, thus practically impossible to narrow down a certaint area's ethnicity.

[Tribesman]

(technically they weren't unionist as there was no union )
Panther are you saying that the Act of Union of 1800 that came into existance on Jan 1st 1801 was not a Union ?

[GoreBag]

They'd have a lot of Nordic, Celtic and people who lived there before the Celts blood. Everywhere in the world especillay Europe, the British Isles in particular(with the pre Celts, Celts, a smidge of Roman, Germanic, Nordic and Norman blood all thrown in) are very mixed, thus practically impossible to narrow down a certaint area's ethnicity.

Irish would be the Celtic Goidils mixing with the indigenous populace. There are people of other ethnicities, of course, but most of them in Ireland, as one would expect, are Irish (meaning Gaelic mixed with the indigens).

The Ulstermen are mostly Scots with some English, as they were moved in there in the middle ages. Ironically, it was from Ulster that the Scoti came to what is now Scotland in the first place. Ulster is, comparatively, Irish only in geography.

Also interesting is how the Scots Ulstermen retained their Presbyterian faith throughout the years while the rest of the Scots from which the Ulstermen were chosen and migrated converted to the Episcopacy, for the most part (but that's still not Catholic enough for most Catholics I know).

[ShadesPanther]

That said, I was rather surprised at the rather slim majority of unionists, I thought it was more along the lines of 70/30 or less so 60/40 but this is almost 55/45 (even less in the last line in the second link presented by Panther).

I also think that a part of the Irish minor nobility survived the English 'invasion' and thus they too followed the higher nobility and became protestants, that has been the way all over the world at all times. The local elites will go to great lengths to retain their powers. Thus many of the protestants could claim to be as Irish as most of the catholics.

There was quite a large majority when Northern Ireland was formed, but the nationalists had higher birth rate than the unionists and now the population is fairly even. I don't really think there will be a united Ireland with a slight nationalist majority more likely that some areas in the west will join the ROI, unless the unionists get a very good deal.

Panther are you saying that the Act of Union of 1800 that came into existance on Jan 1st 1801 was not a Union ?

oops my mistake forgot about that

[Tribesman]

That said, I was rather surprised at the rather slim majority of unionists, I thought it was more along the lines of 70/30 or less so 60/40 but this is almost 55/45
The current majority in the 6 counties is now almost identical to the majority in the 9 counties at the time of partition .

[Colovion]

The Norse occupied Northern Ireland for generations, till Boru - but only the military resistance was killed, the blood remained forever.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

The Episcopal church in Scotland was very powerful until the mid-18th century when it was basically driven out of its position as it tended to be very supportive of Jacobitism.

The Presbyterians then really came to the fore. I grew up in Scotland, in the Episcopal "heartland", let's just say they are pretty insignificant nowadays.

The Scottish settlers in Ulster tended to come from areas where Presbyterianism was very strong even before the 18th century.
I'd also like to point out that there were undoubtedly plenty of Scottish Catholics who settled in Ulster (just consider the MacDonnels of Antrim) too.
Also, some of the native Irish converted to Protestantism.

[GoreBag]

The Episcopal church in Scotland was very powerful until the mid-18th century when it was basically driven out of its position as it tended to be very supportive of Jacobitism.

You must mean Catholicism. The Episcopacy is the church of England, which was gradually imposed on Scotland.

Protestantism had a much greater heyday in the 17th Century.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

No, I mean the Episcopal church.

The Episcopal church only became so interconnected with the Anglican church much later, I believe it did so for its own survival as its congregation had dwindled so much by that point.

The Anglican church did try to impose itself on Scotland which led to the Bishops Wars of the mid 17th century in which the English military got hammered.

The Episcopal church name refers to the continued use of the ancient Bishoprics of Scotland. The Presbyterians do not have bishops.

Believe me, the Episcopal church was the original moderate Protestant church of the Kingdom of Scotland.

[GoreBag]

No, I mean the Episcopal church.

The Episcopal church only became so interconnected with the Anglican church much later, I believe it did so for its own survival as its congregation had dwindled so much by that point.

The Anglican church did try to impose itself on Scotland which led to the Bishops Wars of the mid 17th century in which the English military got hammered.

The Episcopal church name refers to the continued use of the ancient Bishoprics of Scotland. The Presbyterians do not have bishops.

Believe me, the Episcopal church was the original moderate Protestant church of the Kingdom of Scotland.

Ah, I was using Episcopal as a synonym for Anglican. I hadn't realized there was actually a difference.

[Tribesman]

Ah, I was using Episcopal as a synonym for Anglican. I hadn't realized there was actually a difference.
A difference ? Come on Neon this is the remnants of Ulster we are talking about .
You are a Muslim , is that a protestant or catholic muslim ?

But onto the ethnicity of the inhabitants and returnees .
Is anyone familiar withthe two similar legends that put the post nordic(after Boru) ascendancy down to either the Greeks , Egyptians or Portugese(well actually a mixture dependng on which legend you think might be true)

[GoreBag]

Ah, I was using Episcopal as a synonym for Anglican. I hadn't realized there was actually a difference.
A difference ? Come on Neon this is the remnants of Ulster we are talking about .
You are a Muslim , is that a protestant or catholic muslim ?

WHAT?

[ShadesPanther]

But onto the ethnicity of the inhabitants and returnees .
Is anyone familiar withthe two similar legends that put the post nordic(after Boru) ascendancy down to either the Greeks , Egyptians or Portugese(well actually a mixture dependng on which legend you think might be true)

never heard of it. I have heard about the Scottish one though bring the Stone of scone

[Mouzafphaerre]

-
Anglicanism
Presbyterianism
Episcopal churches

-

[Tribesman]

never heard of it.
Its two similar old legends related to the origin of the Gaels (apperaently named after a greek fellow Gael---something or other) that married into the clans and gained ascendancy and another related to the origin of the Scotti that is the same sort of thing (but I think that is the Egyptian/Portugese one) but it was a woman this time .
Of course they are only legends , you can find the tales in the "Odins" web links in this section . I would provide the link but I am slightly drunk .

WHAT?
Neon , that is past history that is unfortunately current history in the 26+6 , I don't expect you to fully understand . It is a joke , but a Joke based on reality . Though if anyone can fully understand it then they deserve the biggest prize that ever has been awarded to humankind

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

oh, I get it...

I've heard the Protestant/Catholic atheist version too.

[GoreBag]

I wish the internet had some better way of presenting sarcasm...

Tribesman, telling me I don't understand isn't explaining. Can you please enlighten instead of, well, mocking, or whatever it is that was?

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

Neon, I think it's a joke based on the assumption that everybody must have taken a side in the issue.