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Thread: Who did more to help the Allies win WW2 Fance or Austrailia?

  1. #91
    Member Member sharrukin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who did more to help the Allies win WW2 Fance or Austrailia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Papewaio
    So by your statement the USA should have more votes at the UN because it can project more military power further?
    In reality it does! If the Americans don't like something it's not easy to get that something to happen. They control the purse strings and have tremendous political sway. Nigeria with a large population but no power projection or money may have a lot of deep thoughts on the subject but no one cares. What Australia thinks is considered of more importance because they have more money and influence. It really cannot be any other way because if you want something done...someone has to do it. And that means they must have the wherewithal to get it done. "You take the king's silver then you do the king's bidding". We do not live in a perfect world.
    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
    -- John Stewart Mills

    But from the absolute will of an entire people there is no appeal, no redemption, no refuge but treason.
    LORD ACTON

  2. #92
    Member Member bmolsson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who did more to help the Allies win WW2 Fance or Austrailia?

    I like France. It has it's ups and downs, but still the French people I know here are great, as long as you don't speak foreign politics with them.....

  3. #93
    Member Member sharrukin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who did more to help the Allies win WW2 Fance or Austrailia?

    Quote Originally Posted by bmolsson
    I like France. It has it's ups and downs, but still the French people I know here are great, as long as you don't speak foreign politics with them.....


    Well everyone likes France, some are just too shy to admit it.

    So where does all this hostility towards France come from? It's envy, plain and simple. The suave, sophisticated Frenchman is a threat to those with social problems. We envy them their success with women, they are the very essence of what women want. Frenchmen understand the endless contradictions that constitute what women want. Dark sexy and very handsome, unbelievably talented, witty, humorous and utterly charming. Envy isn't just wanting what you don't have; it's hating, even just a little bit, those who do. Let's face it, we all want to be Frenchmen.

    Pepe Le Pew




    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
    -- John Stewart Mills

    But from the absolute will of an entire people there is no appeal, no redemption, no refuge but treason.
    LORD ACTON

  4. #94
    Viceroy of the Indian Empire Member Duke Malcolm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who did more to help the Allies win WW2 Fance or Austrailia?

    Blasphemy!
    It was not theirs to reason why,
    It was not theirs to make reply,
    It was theirs but to do or die.
    -The Charge of the Light Brigade - Alfred, Lord Tennyson

    "Wherever this stone shall lie, the King of the Scots shall rule"
    -Prophecy of the Stone of Destiny

    "For God, For King and country, For loved ones home and Empire, For the sacred cause of justice, and The freedom of the world, They buried him among the kings because he, Had done good toward God and toward his house."
    -Inscription on the Tomb of the Unknown Warrior

  5. #95
    Slapshooter Senior Member el_slapper's Avatar
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    Default Re : Re: Who did more to help the Allies win WW2 Fance or Austrailia?

    Quote Originally Posted by bmolsson
    I like France. It has it's ups and downs, but still the French people I know here are great, as long as you don't speak foreign politics with them.....
    Errrrm... I'm not sure it is a good idea to ask which part is irony, & which part isn't.....

    Anyways, the question has been answered : The french empire is the reason why we got a seat in 1945. Of course it did vanish in 17 years after that, as the British one did, which is the reason why 5 seats are no more enough to cover the globe. Brazil & India should have one, maybe Indonesia. It is a shame noone in Africa does have the level.
    War is not about who is right, only about who is left

    Having a point of view upon everything is good
    Having a view upon every point is better

  6. #96
    Lord of the House Flies Member Al Khalifah's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who did more to help the Allies win WW2 Fance or Austrailia?

    Brazil & India should have one, maybe Indonesia. It is a shame noone in Africa does have the level.
    Problem is if India gets one that Pakistan will want one too. Then if Pakistan gets one, why shouldn't other Islamic nations and so on.
    If Brazil gets one, Argentina would definately want one too.

    It's a good question though, who else deserves a U.N permanent security council seat?
    A shortlist would be:
    Norway
    Sweden
    Argentina
    Brazil
    Canada
    Japan
    India
    Pakistan
    Indonesia
    Germany
    Israel
    Egypt
    South Africa
    But of those very few would meet with widespread approval except maybe Canada and South Africa.
    Cowardice is to run from the fear;
    Bravery is not to never feel the fear.
    Bravery is to be terrified as hell;
    But to hold the line anyway.

  7. #97
    Viceroy of the Indian Empire Member Duke Malcolm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who did more to help the Allies win WW2 Fance or Austrailia?

    Not Canada.
    South Africa and India, yes.
    It was not theirs to reason why,
    It was not theirs to make reply,
    It was theirs but to do or die.
    -The Charge of the Light Brigade - Alfred, Lord Tennyson

    "Wherever this stone shall lie, the King of the Scots shall rule"
    -Prophecy of the Stone of Destiny

    "For God, For King and country, For loved ones home and Empire, For the sacred cause of justice, and The freedom of the world, They buried him among the kings because he, Had done good toward God and toward his house."
    -Inscription on the Tomb of the Unknown Warrior

  8. #98
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who did more to help the Allies win WW2 Fance or Austrailia?

    It's a good question though, who else deserves a U.N permanent security council seat?
    A shortlist would be:
    Norway
    Sweden
    Argentina
    Brazil
    Canada
    Japan
    India
    Pakistan
    Indonesia
    Germany
    Israel
    Egypt
    South Africa
    But of those very few would meet with widespread approval except maybe Canada and South Africa.
    Yes and lets give them all veto power Then the UN will finally be totaly useless.
    Fighting for Truth , Justice and the American way

  9. #99
    Lord of the House Flies Member Al Khalifah's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who did more to help the Allies win WW2 Fance or Austrailia?

    Woah! I didn't say all of them, I just think 1 or 2 of them.
    I agree the U.N is already useless enough as it is.
    Cowardice is to run from the fear;
    Bravery is not to never feel the fear.
    Bravery is to be terrified as hell;
    But to hold the line anyway.

  10. #100

    Default Re: Who did more to help the Allies win WW2 Fance or Austrailia?

    The French stand against the American position regarding the 2nd Gulf War upset people NOT because they were weak but because they would not buckle under and agree to what the Americans wanted.

    As i said earlier, bashing the French in WW2 is only ok if you bash the rest of Europe. BUT, the French position on the Iraq war is nothing to put on a pedastal. They were deeply invested in Iraq and Saddam both legally and illegally..

    Thats not to say they should be bashed for wanting to protect their cash cow in the middle east. Most nations do what they can to protect their interests. However, they should not be praised either for taking some "Moral stand against America and George Bush" because that was simply not the case.

    It's a good question though, who else deserves a U.N permanent security council seat?
    A shortlist would be:
    Norway
    Sweden


    I can see why the others on that list could possibly be suggested for a seat but why these two? Im not sure but i doubt either of them could field even as many divisions as Brazil... maybe im wrong.

  11. #101
    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who did more to help the Allies win WW2 Fance or Austrailia?

    Just an idea: French Seat in the Security Council because Nuclear Power after the lost of their Empire?
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

    "I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
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  12. #102
    Scandinavian and loving it Member Lazul's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who did more to help the Allies win WW2 Fance or Austrailia?

    Sweden eh? sounds good hehe
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  13. #103
    Member Member sharrukin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who did more to help the Allies win WW2 Fance or Austrailia?

    Norway; no
    Sweden; no
    Argentina; no
    Brazil; yes
    Canada; no
    Japan; yes
    India; yes
    Pakistan; no
    Indonesia; no
    Germany; yes
    Israel; no
    Egypt; no
    South Africa; no

    Germany, India, Japan and Brazil make sense. The others really do not. They do not have the power and/or the money to make much of a difference.

    It would never happen due to the infighting and politics.


    PanzerJager
    Thats not to say they should be bashed for wanting to protect their cash cow in the middle east. Most nations do what they can to protect their interests. However, they should not be praised either for taking some "Moral stand against America and George Bush" because that was simply not the case.

    Well I agree the French stand against the American position was not based on morality. My point was that you need strong nations on the security council who are willing to disagree and can make it stick or the whole thing becomes more pointless than it already is. And just because something is amoral doesn't mean it's wrong. The cynical viewpoint is always worth listening to.
    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
    -- John Stewart Mills

    But from the absolute will of an entire people there is no appeal, no redemption, no refuge but treason.
    LORD ACTON

  14. #104
    Viceroy of the Indian Empire Member Duke Malcolm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who did more to help the Allies win WW2 Fance or Austrailia?

    Japan and Germany? Over my cold, decomposing dead body. They lost the war which the UN is trying to stop.
    It was not theirs to reason why,
    It was not theirs to make reply,
    It was theirs but to do or die.
    -The Charge of the Light Brigade - Alfred, Lord Tennyson

    "Wherever this stone shall lie, the King of the Scots shall rule"
    -Prophecy of the Stone of Destiny

    "For God, For King and country, For loved ones home and Empire, For the sacred cause of justice, and The freedom of the world, They buried him among the kings because he, Had done good toward God and toward his house."
    -Inscription on the Tomb of the Unknown Warrior

  15. #105
    Senior Member Senior Member Ser Clegane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who did more to help the Allies win WW2 Fance or Austrailia?

    Quote Originally Posted by King Malcolm
    Japan and Germany? Over my cold, decomposing dead body. They lost the war which the UN is trying to stop.
    That's a very strange argument.

    Anyway - I'm might remind you of your statement when the time comes

    Personally, I believe that India and Brazil should definitely be included. An African country would probably make more sense than an additional European one.

    The one thing I definitely don't want to see is veto rights for new permanent members.

    Actually IMO veto rights should be removed altogether but it's probably a bit unrealistic to expect that the current permanent members not only allow additional members in but would also give up their veto rights - so it just ain't gonna happen...

  16. #106
    Member Member sharrukin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who did more to help the Allies win WW2 Fance or Austrailia?

    Quote Originally Posted by King Malcolm
    Japan and Germany? Over my cold, decomposing dead body. They lost the war which the UN is trying to stop.
    Actually the war is over and ummm...has been for some time.

    It's time to come out of the jungle now!


    Personally, I believe that India and Brazil should definitely be included. An African country would probably make more sense than an additional European one.

    It's not a sympathy vote. We should include Tuvalu to represent the pacific islands as well if that was the case. It is who will be an effective member, has a military and money and is capable of standing up to the larger nations if it comes to a difference of opinion. In africa Egypt is the only nation that comes close to this.
    Last edited by sharrukin; 05-04-2005 at 20:34.
    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
    -- John Stewart Mills

    But from the absolute will of an entire people there is no appeal, no redemption, no refuge but treason.
    LORD ACTON

  17. #107
    Senior Member Senior Member Ser Clegane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who did more to help the Allies win WW2 Fance or Austrailia?

    Quote Originally Posted by sharrukin
    Actually the war is over and ummm...has been for some time.

    It's time to come out of the jungle now!


    Personally, I believe that India and Brazil should definitely be included. An African country would probably make more sense than an additional European one.

    It's not a sympathy vote. We should include Tuvalu to represent the pacific islands as well if that was the case. It is who will be an effective member, has a military and money and is capable of standing up to the larger nations if it comes to a difference of opinion.
    Who is talking about a sympathy vote? I disagree that only the raw "power" of a nation should be the criteria for being a permanent member (in this case Brazil would have no place there). IMO fair representation of the global population should play an important role when it come to selecting permanent members.

    If Tuvalu would reperesnt a significant portion of the global population then it should by all means have a permanent seat - however, last time I checked this was not the case.

  18. #108
    Member Member sharrukin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who did more to help the Allies win WW2 Fance or Austrailia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ser Clegane
    Who is talking about a sympathy vote? I disagree that only the raw "power" of a nation should be the criteria for being a permanent member (in this case Brazil would have no place there). IMO fair representation of the global population should play an important role when it come to selecting permanent members.

    If Tuvalu would reperesnt a significant portion of the global population then it should by all means have a permanent seat - however, last time I checked this was not the case.
    And what exactly do you suppose the security council made up of China, India, Nigeria, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Mexico, Japan, Philippines, Brazil, Egypt, Ethiopia and Vietnam would do when the United States wanted something? They would ask "how high did you say?" They mostly lack the money to have an independent policy. China, India, Japan and Brazil might be somewhat independent but it would make little difference as the others know which side their bread is buttered on and not being fools would act accordingly.

    And when it came time for military action what exactly would Mexico, Ethiopia or Bangladesh do in that regard? Demand that other nations send their militaries? And what if they said no? How lame would that be? And without money OR the military strength to back it up you would eventually have the situation of those nations who did have these things would quietly dictate policy behind the scenes anyway.

    And where would the money come from? Do you really think that most nations would simply open their treasuries without any say in how those monies are spent?

    And given the internal conditions of many of these nations what policies do you think they would adopt?
    Do you think human rights would be any great concern for them? Money! Just give me money! that would be their policy because they are NOT idiots and if you have a poverty stricken nation then money is your first concern.
    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
    -- John Stewart Mills

    But from the absolute will of an entire people there is no appeal, no redemption, no refuge but treason.
    LORD ACTON

  19. #109
    Senior Member Senior Member Ser Clegane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who did more to help the Allies win WW2 Fance or Austrailia?

    Quote Originally Posted by sharrukin
    And what exactly do you suppose the security council made up of China, India, Nigeria, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Mexico, Japan, Philippines, Brazil, Egypt, Ethiopia and Vietnam would do when the United


    Could you please tell me how exactly you come to these conclusions based on my posts?
    Where exactly did I say that the permanent council members should be the one with the highest population?

    I believe that a representation of all major region by at least one member should be one important criteria for selecting permanent council members.
    If you choose to make up a completely different scenario and pretend that it was something I suggested - fine, but don't expect me to argue on that level.


    And given the internal conditions of many of these nations what policies do you think they would adopt?
    Do you think human rights would be any great concern for them? Money! Just give me money! that would be their policy because they are NOT idiots and if you have a poverty stricken nation then money is your first concern.
    Are you suggesting that the current permanent council members are not primarily driven by their own interests

  20. #110
    Member Member sharrukin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who did more to help the Allies win WW2 Fance or Austrailia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ser Clegane


    Could you please tell me how exactly you come to these conclusions based on my posts?
    Where exactly did I say that the permanent council members should be the one with the highest population?

    I believe that a representation of all major region by at least one member should be one important criteria for selecting permanent council members.
    If you choose to make up a completely different scenario and pretend that it was something I suggested - fine, but don't expect me to argue on that level.
    I guess it was this!

    IMO fair representation of the global population should play an important role when it come to selecting permanent members.

    And no I am not making this up these are your words! And what level you argue on has more to do with you than it does with me!
    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
    -- John Stewart Mills

    But from the absolute will of an entire people there is no appeal, no redemption, no refuge but treason.
    LORD ACTON

  21. #111
    Senior Member Senior Member Ser Clegane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who did more to help the Allies win WW2 Fance or Austrailia?

    Quote Originally Posted by sharrukin
    I guess it was this!

    IMO fair representation of the global population should play an important role when it come to selecting permanent members.

    And no I am not making this up these are your words! And what level you argue on has more to do with you than it does with me!
    For your convenience I marked the part in my statement that you chose to ignore...

  22. #112
    Feeding the Peanut Gallery Senior Member Redleg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who did more to help the Allies win WW2 Fance or Austrailia?

    Quote Originally Posted by sharrukin
    I guess it was this!

    IMO fair representation of the global population should play an important role when it come to selecting permanent members.

    And no I am not making this up these are your words! And what level you argue on has more to do with you than it does with me!
    +

    Actually I believe you misread and mis-understood Ser Clegane point. He was speaking in fair representation of each area of the globe because the way the planets population is spread out - not by population density.
    O well, seems like 'some' people decide to ruin a perfectly valid threat. Nice going guys... doc bean

  23. #113
    Member Member sharrukin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who did more to help the Allies win WW2 Fance or Austrailia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redleg
    +

    Actually I believe you misread and mis-understood Ser Clegane point. He was speaking in fair representation of each area of the globe because the way the planets population is spread out - not by population density.
    That is entirely possible that I misread and misunderstand his point. And if he had simply and politely pointed that out as you have I would have responded in kind. However the part that I did not misread or misunderstand is the personal attack!

    If you choose to make up a completely different scenario and pretend that it was something I suggested - fine, but don't expect me to argue on that level.

    I like argument to remain civilized and intelligent and personal attacks have no part in that.

    If I want anything of the sort we have this thread;
    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=47080

    And he is far more entertaining.
    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
    -- John Stewart Mills

    But from the absolute will of an entire people there is no appeal, no redemption, no refuge but treason.
    LORD ACTON

  24. #114
    Senior Member Senior Member Ser Clegane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who did more to help the Allies win WW2 Fance or Austrailia?

    Quote Originally Posted by sharrukin

    I like argument to remain civilized and intelligent and personal attacks have no part in that.
    So do I.

    After your flippant response to my first post
    It's not a sympathy vote. We should include Tuvalu to represent the pacific islands as well if that was the case.
    I politely clarified my position. However, in your next post you again chose to put words into my mouth and went on a rant about how unqualified countries (of which nobody suggested that they get a council seat) were.

    Now you accuse me of personal attacks... intersting...

    EDIT: OK, I suggest that this thread goes back on topic.
    sharrukin, if you have the feeling that my comments were a personal attack (which was not the intent), I will be glad to discuss this issue via PM.
    Last edited by Ser Clegane; 05-04-2005 at 22:08.

  25. #115
    MOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member Idomeneas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who did more to help the Allies win WW2 Fance or Austrailia?

    Quote Originally Posted by sharrukin
    Well everyone likes France, some are just too shy to admit it.

    So where does all this hostility towards France come from? It's envy, plain and simple. The suave, sophisticated Frenchman is a threat to those with social problems. We envy them their success with women, they are the very essence of what women want. Frenchmen understand the endless contradictions that constitute what women want. Dark sexy and very handsome, unbelievably talented, witty, humorous and utterly charming. Envy isn't just wanting what you don't have; it's hating, even just a little bit, those who do. Let's face it, we all want to be Frenchmen.

    Pepe Le Pew




    ever heard about greek lovers??
    μηνιν αειδε θεα Πηληιαδεω Αχιληοs ουλομενην

  26. #116
    Member Member sharrukin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who did more to help the Allies win WW2 Fance or Austrailia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Idomeneas
    ever heard about greek lovers??
    I tried to resist, I really did!

    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
    -- John Stewart Mills

    But from the absolute will of an entire people there is no appeal, no redemption, no refuge but treason.
    LORD ACTON

  27. #117
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who did more to help the Allies win WW2 Fance or Austrailia?

    Here we go





    Charlemagne SS Division

    8. Freiwillgen Sturmbrigade der SS FRANKREICH

    Before incorporating the LVF into the Waffen-SS, individual Frenchmen of German heritage had successfully enlisted in SS formations. From the very start of the occupation, these men served under the "TOTENKOPF," "DAS REICH" and "WIKING" Divisions.

    In July 1943, recruiting office was set up at 24 avenue du Recteur Poincare in Paris where some 1500 applications were received. University students were prominent among the volunteers.

    By August 1943, 800 French candidates were drafted into the Waffen-SS and sent to a training camp at Sennheim in Alsace. In November 1943, 20 French Officers were sent to the SS training camp at Bad Tolz and 100 NCO's to SS school at Posen Treskau. The French volunteers received German Waffen-SS uniforms. In March 1944, 1538 Frenchmen along with trained Officers and NCO's were assembled as a complete formation at the Waffen-SS training camp located at Beneschau near Prague. On 30 June 1944, the unit was designated as the "8. Freiwilligen Sturmbrigade Frankreich." Other sources referred to the brigade number as 7th, nevertheless the French unit was commonly referred as the "SS Sturmbrigade Frankreich."

    In July 1944, the Sturmbrigade was ordered to form an emergency battle group. The 1st battalion under the command of SS-Haupsturmführer Pierre Cance was selected for the Eastern Front. Henri Fenet was in charged of the 1st Company.

    In early August the 1st battalion was sent to reinforce the battle group of the "18th SS Division HORST WESSEL." This division was engaged at Mielec in the bend of the Vistula Front.
    These men fought with great courage, earning praise from the commander of the 18th SS Division, SS-Oberführer Trabandt. In that battle the French lost 7 Officers and 130 men killed with 661 wounded. A total of 58 2nd class Iron Crosses were awarded, (many posthumously).
    They were pulled out of the frontline and sent to regroup at Schwarnegast near Danzig.

    Meanwhile, the 2nd battalion was transferred to the Waffen-SS barracks in West Prussia, northeast of Konitz, where it was joined by survivors of the 1st battalion. In September 1944, the assault brigade, French Navy personnel and members of the LVF were united to form a Waffen-SS Grenadier-Brigade. By this date much of France had been liberated and hundreds of French collaborators were evacuated along with the retreating German Wehrmacht. Himmler managed to draft various groups of retreating Frenchmen in order to complete the new Waffen-SS division, the “33. Waffen Grenadier-Division der SS Charlemagne.”
    SS French Picture

    Never before seen SS propaganda picture showing the Vichy General Secretary Joseph Darnand who was granted an honorary commission as an SS-Obersturmführer, shown here visiting French SS volunteers of the 1st Regiment before departing to the Eastern Front.

    33. Waffen Grenadier-Division der SS CHARLEMAGNE

    This division was composed of 7340 men and was divided into two regiments. The 57th Regiment had former LVF and the 58th Regiment formed from SS Sturmbrigade and Milice personnel. The divisional commander was German SS-Brigadeführer Dr. Gustav Krukenberg, second in command former LVF, Edgar Puaud with the rank of Waffen-Oberführer. The division was placed at Wildflecken Depot station, about 40Kms away from Schweinfurt, Germany. Many Frenchmen were selected for special training and were dispatched to courses in remaining areas of the Reich. The division was provided with leftover German and Italian armament and provisions.

    On 24 February 1945, two regiments of the division without divisional support were sent to the front lines near the railroad station in the village of Hammerstein.

    The Division was attached to the German XVIII Gebirgs-Korps of the 2nd Army, commanded by General Houchbaum, which was part of Army Group Vistula in Pomerania. The Corps was tasked to defend a front line running from Landeck to Konitz, 45 Kms long. The Corps had already two Divisions defending the region, the German 32nd Infantry Pomeranian Division and the 15th Waffen-SS Latvian Division.

    Meanwhile the Russians were already launching an offensive attack near Hammerstein-Neustettin Sector. The SS-French troops unaware what was going on went on the offensive but were immediately pull back towards Hammerstein from the Russian onslaught. Orders were immediately given to have the SS-French troops to assemble at Neustettin.

    The Battle of Neustettin

    By midday on the 26th February 1945, the bulk of the SS-French Division had reached Neustettin. Of the 4500 troops that formed the Division, 1000 of them including 15 officers were missing in action. Overall about 50 Russian tanks were destroyed and inflicted more then double of Russian casualties.

    At Neustettin about thirty Iron Crosses were awarded.

    This caused the French forces to re-organize in Neustettin with three small battle groups. By the 2nd of March 1945, the new organization consisted of the following battle groups, which consisted of two battalions:

    The first group was referred as "Regiment of Marche," which had the best elements of men, under the command of Ostuf. Fenet.
    The second group was mostly made up of ex-LVF and Miliciens under the command of Hstuf. Bassompierre.
    The third group was a Reserve unit of two small battalion size groups placed under the command of Hstuf. Monneuse.

    During the 3rd & 4th March 1945, these battle groups were surrounded. One battle group tried to escape under cover of the fog, unfortunately the fog cleared, and they were exposed to a murderous fire from the Russian artillery. Oberführer Puaud was among those missing. Another battle group, which was composed mostly of former miliciens thought that the Baltic ports were in enemy hands and attempted a fighting retreat westward. All were either killed or taken captive including Bassompierre. The third group was trapped in a pocket on the Baltic coast in Danzig. SS-Brigaderführer Krukenberg, received orders to evacuate his remaining troops via the German Navy. The remnants split into small groups and dispersed in all directions. During this withdrawal, the group of mostly LVF veterans engaged ex-German POWs of the "Seydlitz Division." This German Division fought on the Soviet side.

    On the 10th March the French SS reached the Oder and crossing by pontoon bridge they broke the Soviet circle. In mid-March all that was left of the division regrouped at Neustrelitz. A regimental strength and a small battalion size of men were reorganized.
    SS French Picture

    Press photo showing two French SS men dug in an underground trench. The soldier manning the machine-gun looks like Henri Fenet. He would later fight defending Berlin earning him the Knight Cross.
    In the background you can see another trench with some soldiers, one of them is wearing what seems to be a black fur cap. Notice the clear image of the soldier wearing a German issued "French SS" shield attached on the left sleeve of his SS uniform. The helmets are void of any insignia they seem well worn or smother with mud and dirt.

    The Battle of Berlin

    In Neustrelitz, Krukenberg received a telegram ordering him to reach Berlin with one battalion. He asked for volunteers, those who didn't want to continue fighting were absolved, one officer and 300 other ranks elected to call it quits.

    In spite of fighting a loosing war 500 men volunteered. They eventually reached Neukolln, East Berlin. However, due to the very heavy Russian air attack 100 of them perished on their way.

    In East Berlin the remaining 400 men were attached to the 11th SS Panzer-Grenadier Division Nordland. They fought with undeniable heroism and terrible losses, 30 Russian tanks were destroyed at the very beginning of the battle. Street fighting raged on, within a week it's strength had been reduced to 120 men. Every street and house was hotly contested by French SS men.
    By 29 April, 60 more Russian tanks had been knockout. Such was the courage of the "CHARLEMAGNE" Division.

    Three Frenchmen "Apolot" "Fenet" and "Vaulot" have received the Knights Cross to the Iron Cross during the Battle for Berlin.
    It is estimated that more than 100,000 Frenchmen collaborated with the Germans during World War II.
    It should be noted that Frenchmen from Alsace and Lorraine were drafted into the German Army. Alsace and Lorraine was annexed by Germany on August 1940.


    SS French Shield

    Official Waffen-SS French Tricolore Shield

    In July 1944, the first official SS pattern French shield was introduced in the Neweklau training camp during the formation of the French SS-Sturmbrigade. This shield differed noticeably from the LVF counterpart because it only shows the national tricolore stripes on a black field. Interestingly upon receipt of the first French sleeve shields it was the German instructors who were first to sport them, whereas the Alsatian NCOs held out as long as possible. According to SS-FHA regulations the national shield was to be worn on the left sleeve directly under the SS sleeve eagle as shown in the example below.


    SS French Shield

    This is another SS official pattern variation noticeably similar to the LVF counterpart but with curved sides and the word "FRANCE" at the top. In spite of SS regulations most wore the shield on the forearm. It should be noted that privately made insignia was worn prior to its official introduction.
    EKII and EKII Award Document to Frenchman in the Charlemagne Division
    EKII Award Document

    During January and early February 1945 the French SS Brigade was expanded into the "33. Waffen-Gren der SS Charlemagne." The defensive battles in Pomerania started on the 23 February 1945 with the Charlemagne Division refitting at Hammerstein Camp. On 8 March 1945, the remnants of the Division assembled in Jargelin North-west of Anklam. During that time Brigaderführer Krukenberg awards 16 EKII to French volunteers. The EKII Document was given to SS Rottenführer Andre Lamy. It is dated 15 March 1945 and handstamped with the Divisional Seal of the Charlemagne. The document also has the signature of SS-Brigadeführer Krukenberg who would later command the remaining remnants of the Nordland Division. Also shown is the original EKII awarded to the Charlemagne volunteer.

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  28. #118

    Default Re: Who did more to help the Allies win WW2 Fance or Austrailia?

    The SS was very successful in many countries that had large populations of people who hated communism.

    If I was a young Estonian for example and my country was threatened by the USSR, i would definately join the SS over the Estonian army. Better weapons and leadership.

    Doesnt really excuse the french though, they werent directly threatened..

  29. #119
    Member Member sharrukin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who did more to help the Allies win WW2 Fance or Austrailia?

    Well I did mention the French participation regarding the 'Charlemagne' division.

    How many French served with the German armed forces? c.20,000, 33rd Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS "Charlemagne"

    I am not saying that they did not have some who joined the Germans.

    I am saying that every country in europe had some who did exactly the same thing. This is not an indictment of the French but an indictment of human nature. The Spanish fielded the Blue Division for service with the Germans but I do not see condemnations of them for this. They were not even occupied by the Germans but did this because they chose to do so. Why are the French especially guilty of anything here besides being French, and that's burden enough I should think.
    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
    -- John Stewart Mills

    But from the absolute will of an entire people there is no appeal, no redemption, no refuge but treason.
    LORD ACTON

  30. #120

    Default Re: Who did more to help the Allies win WW2 Fance or Austrailia?

    Why are the French especially guilty of anything here besides being French, and that's burden enough I should think.

    Well i know the question wasnt directed at me but ill give my opinion. As i eluded to countries in Eastern Europe that were directly threatened with such a horrible system that communism was had a valid excuse IMO for having SS legions.

    The french are no more guilty than the dutch or the norwegians however.

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