Investigation of general bodyguard size

[A.Saturnus]

On request of Simetrical, this thread investigates the factors influencing the size of general bodyguard units.

[Kraxis]

Obviously the faction leader and his heir have enlarged guards, now since those two have a special trait then perhaps it could be generated in the traits. That fits somewhat effectively with the common feeling that the bodyguard of a good commander is often larger than a poor governor.

[sunsmountain]

I've seen three types of bodyguards:

Faction leaders,
Faction heirs, and
Governors (neither leader nor heir)

From observation so far (not checked): The base bodyguard (on Huge), for leaders is 80 cavalry men, heirs is 60, normal governors 40. To this number is added a certain amount based on age, as far as i can tell. Retinues and ancillaries should expand bodyguard size as well, but i am not sure.

It's clear however, this time around, that bodyguard sizes are also scaled to unit scale, as opposed to MTW. (Where playing Denmark meant playing on a lower unit scale to make your princes fight better)

[A.Saturnus]

I checked all my family members in my current Germanic campagne. Hard/hard, large units. I only noted ancilliaries and traits that seemed possibly relevant.

[table 1 2 2]
=#Men|=Command|=Valour|=ancilliaries|=traits
=26|=2|=1|=Fam.Warrior, Vet.Warrior, Shieldbearer|=InthePink Berserker
=36|=1|=0|= |=BeeninWars, FactionHeir
=24|=2|=0|= |=BeeninWars
=24|=0|=0|= |
=24|=0|=0|= |
=24|=2|=1|=Shieldbearer|
=48|=6|=5|=Bodyguard, Fam.Warrior|=FactionLeader
=38|=6|=4|=Shieldbearer|=BeeninWars, Disinherited
=26|=0|=0|=PriestofWoden|
=26|=2|=1|=PriestofDonar|=UntouchedbyFear
[/table]

Any ideas?

[Simetrical]

Let's change that slightly. Assuming you're using vanilla:

[table 1 2 2]
=#Men|=Command|=Valour|=Personal Security|=HP|=Faction
=26|=2|=1|=+1|=+2|
=36|=1|=0|=+2|=+2|=Heir
=24|=2|=0|=+0|=+2|
=24|=0|=0|=+0|=+0|
=24|=0|=0|=+0|=+0|
=24|=2|=1|=+0|=+0|
=48|=6|=5|=+5|=+0|=Leader
=38|=6|=4|=+0|=+2|=Disinherited
=26|=0|=0|=+0|=+0|
=26|=2|=1|=+0|=+0|
[/table]
Let me formulate a hypothesis. My guess is that the variable of primary importance is the state of being a) a faction leader, b) a faction heir or former faction heir, or c) a regular family member; and of secondary importance is a random factor. Organizing the table by the primary factor first, then by bodyguard size, we get:

[table 1 2 2]
=ID#|=#Men|=Command|=Valour|=Personal Security|=HP|=Faction
=1|=48|=6|=5|=+5|=+0|=Leader
=2|=38|=6|=4|=+0|=+2|=Disinherited
=3|=36|=1|=0|=+2|=+2|=Heir
=4|=26|=2|=1|=+1|=+2|
=5|=26|=0|=0|=+0|=+0|
=6|=26|=2|=1|=+0|=+0|
=7|=24|=2|=0|=+0|=+2|
=8|=24|=0|=0|=+0|=+0|
=9|=24|=0|=0|=+0|=+0|
=10|=24|=2|=1|=+0|=+0|
[/table]
I see no correlation between the two-man differences in unit size and any other factor I've charted. Any of the four factors should put #5 as less than or equal to #7-9, but it has more guards. Two uncharted possibilities are Influence and age. I'll do some more research into this when I get the chance, but I don't expect that to be for a while.

-Simetrical

[Dearmad]

Regarding the above:
Wrong data gathered = wrong conclusion drawn.

I think it has more to do with influnce... something like X*influence + base size modified to bonus faction leaders and maybe heirs.

[Simetrical]

Would you care to share your own data, rather than calling A.Saturnus' data wrong with no reason provided and then proceeding to state a hypothesis that the data we do have flatly contradicts?

-Simetrical

[Dearmad]

Calm down. I was simply poiting out that the data gathered so far is not the whole story, clearly- as it doesn't correlate into a relationship.

In one of my games, all 6 generals' cavalry matched the formula: 2*influence + base- 3 generals were identical in stats except for influence and had no personal security vnv. Their command stars appeared to have no influence, but it could other factors combining to create that papearence. More testing is required, since the generals can age and gain stars, and other qualities that may also affect the formula.

IMO the data you fgathered is not the complete picture.

[Simetrical]

Dearmad, you appear to have been vindicated. I have just established that Influence unequivocally changes bodyguard size. Your formula doesn't appear to hold, however; cursory testing with toggle_perfect_spy shows that there appears to be yet another independent variable. I'll look into this more later.

-Simetrical

[magnum]

Currently in the process of collecting data, but a cursory look at what I have so far seems to indicate that Personal Security is the main factor that controls bodyguard size. Each point of personal security equals 2 bodyguards, with values possible values ranging from +9 to -3. Some things to note though for others that are collecting data.

1) When an event occurs that INCREASES bodyguard size, the unit does not immediately increase, but increases 1 man a turn until it is the correct size. (This is on large.)

2) When an event occurs the DECREASES bodyguard size, the unit DOES NOT lose men automatically. Until the unit is involved in combat in which one or more of the bodyguards are killed, it will stay the same size. Once they've been killed they simply don't regenerate.

Once I realized that personal security was definately affecting bodyguard size, I discovered #2. My faction leader had a unit size of 52 with a Pet Lion (+1 security) and a Gladiator (+1 Security). I transfered these two retainers to another leader and that leaders bodyguard did in fact increase from 24 (base size on large) to 28. However, my Faction Leader's bodyguard stayed at 52. Several turns later my Faction Leader was involved in an autocalc battle against some rebels and lost 20 men. His unit regen'd back up to 48 (which was the expected size.) So if you are seeing a bodyguard size that doesn't appear correct, think back to when his personal security might have changed and has he been in combat since then.

I've not finished collecting data, so I can't in any way say that personal security is the only thing that affects bodyguard size. I can only say that so far its the only variable (ok, other than Faction Leader and Faction Heir) that I can say definately has an effect. Hopefully by the end of the weekend I'll be able to post a more detailed explanation of how a generals bodyguard size is determined.

[player1]

Well, Faction leader and Facition heir have higher personal security then other leaders (they are more difficult to assassinate).

[Simetrical]

I've verified that the effect goes beyond that, however. Even if you remove the PersonalSecurity effect, heirs/leaders still get substantially larger bodyguards.

-Simetrical

[magnum]

Yes, not counting personal security, Leaders get +14 bodyguards and Heirs get +8 bodyguards. (Thats on large unit size.) Haven't tested the disenherited yet. They may or may not get anything.

Faction Leaders also get +3 Personal Security and Faction Heirs get +2.

[A.Saturnus]

If you look at the data above, there are cases where personal security is not increased yet bodyguard size is. There must be another factor. Maybe influence?

[magnum]

Yes. Still going over all the data I've collected, and there's always a possiblity of things/situations that might have an effect that just didn't happen, but so far the following meets all the data I've collected.

On Large Unit size:
Base Bodyguard : 24
Leader: + 14
Heir: +8
Personal Security: +2 per point
Influence: +2 per 3 points (whole values only. So at 3, 6, and 9)

Those are the only influences I've found and with them, all the data I've collected matches. A few other things though:

First two are the two points I brought up in an earlier post, increases are not immediate but take a few turns. Decreases don't occur until you lose the bodyguards in battle.

(BUG) There's an error in the export_desc_character_traits.txt file (imagine that!) for the IanR trait. Its very rare but the three levels of it are -10 / -20 / -30 to personal security. This means that a family member could end up with a negative bodyguard size. Gonna need to mod a start file to see how the game handles that. Believe the values were meant to be -1 / -2 / -3.

Haven't tested to see if disenherieted gets any bonus to bodyguard size.

Holding Senate offices (nor the ex-office titles) do not confer any special bodyguard size. However, the office bonuses to influence might give you enough influence to increase the size.

Command, Valor, HPs and Management never made a difference in bodyguard size. I had cases in all 4 where generals were max'ed (and on HPs min'd) and it never affected the size of the bodyguards.

(BUG) Senate office of Pontifex Maximus should be obtainable multiple times (several of the offices you can only hold once) but if you get it a second time it does not appear in the characters traits nor do you get the stat bonuses for the office, nor do you get the ex-Pontifex Maximus title.

That's it so far. If I come across anything else I'll post it. If others who are looking into this could check my findings against the data they have I'd appreciate it. Cheers!

[Morat]

Is anyone still looking into this? It is something that has bugged me a bit. I think magnum is right to approach the issue in a more systematic way by modding the game rather than gathering data in normal games.

[Severous]

Hi

I like the collection of research data in this forum. Very useful.

Heres a little bit more for this old thread.

During my first full Campaign I had an excellent General. 10 Command stars. I noticed his Bodyguard was small. I thought it was all the fighting. After a long rest in a remote African town the bodygaurd didnt increase. I thought it was age having an effect.



On Large scale the default unit size is 24. So this is half strength yet he has not been in battle for years. Why didnt his bodyguard increase?

After reading this thread I went to see if the low strength was consistent with Magnums detailed post above.

It was.

This general rankings are:
9 Command, 2 management, -3 Influence, -7 Personal Security

This should make the general bodyguard strength = 7 (24-3-[7*2])

But here it is 12. This is because the bodyguard wont go down until there are losses.

So I engineered a revolt in the town. This caused casualties down to 10 but no lower. When I checked the general had picked up an Influence trait and was now -2. Maybe he also picked up increased security?

I played on until he was age 76 . Allowing riots to kill any surplus bodyguards. But his bodyguard never got any weaker before he died. Low influence, trusting and trusting fool (-7 to lack of trust!)

Age did not have any effect. The traits did.

[Garvanko]

Make every faction member an heir for a turn, and all of them should get larger bodyguard units.

[Tzar Dusan of Serbs]

only things that meters are influence,and of course if your general is leader or heir

[knoddy]

there are 2 factors influencing body guard size as already stated in this thread. high influence will always increase body guard size, as can be seen in any camp game u play, high influence gens will always have slightly bigger body guards. the second is personal security. i have seen 2 cases where this was show to be true.

first i should note i play on second biggest unit setting (cant remember wot it is) so my gens normally consist of about 20-30, faction leaders and heirs 40-50 depending.

after the romans repeatedly tried to assasinate several of my thracian generals in italy, i noticed i had 2 gens with low influence, who were not heirs or leaders with body guards of over 40 men! upon futher inspection i found that they both had large bonous's to personal security due to so many failed assasination attempts.

The second was when i saw a brutii faction heir, he had 0 personal security traits, and had a standard body guard of about 40ish. then i assasinated his father, and attempted to assasinate him several times. by the time i had lost 3-4 good assasins, he had 3 ancillaries which improved his personal security, 3-4 traits which improved his personal security and a body guard of 60 men!!!!
needless to say he lived to the ripe old age of about 30 till i finially assasinated him :D :D

Cheers Knoddy

[guineawolf]

Yes. Still going over all the data I've collected, and there's always a possiblity of things/situations that might have an effect that just didn't happen, but so far the following meets all the data I've collected.

On Large Unit size:
Base Bodyguard : 24
Leader: + 14
Heir: +8
Personal Security: +2 per point
Influence: +2 per 3 points (whole values only. So at 3, 6, and 9)

Those are the only influences I've found and with them, all the data I've collected matches. A few other things though:

First two are the two points I brought up in an earlier post, increases are not immediate but take a few turns. Decreases don't occur until you lose the bodyguards in battle.

(BUG) There's an error in the export_desc_character_traits.txt file (imagine that!) for the IanR trait. Its very rare but the three levels of it are -10 / -20 / -30 to personal security. This means that a family member could end up with a negative bodyguard size. Gonna need to mod a start file to see how the game handles that. Believe the values were meant to be -1 / -2 / -3.

Haven't tested to see if disenherieted gets any bonus to bodyguard size.

Holding Senate offices (nor the ex-office titles) do not confer any special bodyguard size. However, the office bonuses to influence might give you enough influence to increase the size.

Command, Valor, HPs and Management never made a difference in bodyguard size. I had cases in all 4 where generals were max'ed (and on HPs min'd) and it never affected the size of the bodyguards.

(BUG) Senate office of Pontifex Maximus should be obtainable multiple times (several of the offices you can only hold once) but if you get it a second time it does not appear in the characters traits nor do you get the stat bonuses for the office, nor do you get the ex-Pontifex Maximus title.

That's it so far. If I come across anything else I'll post it. If others who are looking into this could check my findings against the data they have I'd appreciate it. Cheers!

i found out that every 2 influence that a character get will increase that character's general bobyguards by 4=it seems same as +1 personal security
(i played at huge size),and it will increase when it get every 2 influence only.

It seems Magnum's post are the conclusion of this research,:
On Large Unit size:
Base Bodyguard : 24
Leader: + 14
Heir: +8
Personal Security: +2 per point
Influence: +2 per 3 points

Game units size,is normal=2,small=1,large*2 of normal,huge=*2 of large.