Age of Vikings and Fanatics: Total war

[skeletor]

I,m not really sure, we could have them only as a unique Norwegian (and maybe west swedish) archer unit.

BTW new avatar that doesn't get cut

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-Skel-

[Rodion Romanovich]

Ah, the new pic indeed looks sweet!

Anyway, regarding the birkebeiners I think it would be fun to have them with zone of recruit in Norwegian provinces. Then the swedish faction can also recruit them if they conquer Norwegian land which will help them later in the game. I've edited so they've been added to the tech tree now.

I'll try to fix complete tech tree suggestions for the remaining factions too by tomorrow or Tuesday.

[King Ragnar]

LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix, i would like to help you in this mod as the one that me and ferret decided to do hasnt made progress in a while and ferret himself hasnt siad anything, i still want to make a viking mod though and i am offering my services if you would like them.

[Rodion Romanovich]

LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix, i would like to help you in this mod as the one that me and ferret decided to do hasnt made progress in a while and ferret himself hasnt siad anything, i still want to make a viking mod though and i am offering my services if you would like them.

Ok, what skills do you have? We'll probably have loads of units in the mod so more modellers/skinners are always welcome, I believe. I'm sure the others in the mod team don't mind if another modder joins the team.

[King Ragnar]

Researching looks like you have done most of that, i can skin but i've just started and i am trying to learn to model units. But i have problems opening the file etc.

[Rodion Romanovich]

No problem, there'll probably be more research to do. There are some holes in the lists I've made - more research is needed before those holes can be filled. We also need to find good pictures for all the units and so on. Most of my sources have been written sources with very few pictures.

[Rodion Romanovich]

I've updated the post about tech trees: http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpo...4&postcount=52

Now the post contains tech tree suggestions for all factions. One problem is that I couldn't find any good sources about magyar religion so I didn't know what their shrines should be dedicated too.

I'll see what I can do with the province list. Hopefully I'll be able to get a more complete province list ready by tomorrow. When that has been done, I can start working on the campaign map again, yay! Only the province names are really necessary before starting the work on the campaign map, the city names can easily be filled in later.

Edit: BTW some of my thoughts on the campaign map (I'd like to know what you think of these ideas): 1. less forests than in R:TW map, because much more forests had been chopped down at this time. 2. almost no inpenetrable forests at all - if there are forests they should be possible to move through in most cases (with a few exceptions though), 3. perhaps more varied terrain than in RTW, with more hills in the landscapes and so on, 4. possible to sail also in non-coastal seas (in vanilla R:TW you can't move too far away from the spanish coast etc.), 5. more lakes than in RTW in the areas where there are many lakes, 6. now that the team has so many modelers/skinners, I'll be able to put more effort into the campaign map making and I'll base the campaign map on real maps and pictures of different areas and try to make it as realistic as possible.

I also believe you skinners/modellers can start the work on the units shortly as I believe many of the units in the tech tree lists are units that simply HAVE to be in the mod, that probably won't need much discussion: viking berserkers, kataphraktoi, welsh longbowmen, varangian mercenaries etc. I suggest you who do the modelling and/or skinning discuss internally who will model/skin which units. My suggestion is that you, skeletor, primarily create the units that require new models while the others primarily try to skin units which could use almost the same models as in vanilla R:TW because you are the only modeller on the team right now. However, if you, skeletor, have time for it, I think we'd get an even better result if new models are created for all units. Then it'll be possible to slow down movement speed a little (by perhaps 20-40%), and implement more different movement speeds to add tactical depth and make lighter units more interesting etc. If you haven't got time to create that many models and animations, we'll have to find a compromise where we use existing models for many units. For example the chosen swordsmen have a model that I believe can be used for plenty of swordsmen carrying a round shield. And many of the cavalry models can also be reskinned and used almost directly.

Edit2: Here's a list of things I'd like to discuss about my tech tree lists:
1. should khazar too have access to camels? In the suggestion above they can't recruit camels.
2. should all factions be able to recruit the bedouin camels if they capture the zones of recruit where camels can be built for the factions that have camels now?
3. magyar shrines - what gods did they worship when they were pagan?
4. what extra happiness buildings should be used for the orthodox and muslim factions and khazar and magyars?
5. is any faction overpowered in your opinion?
6. are there too many or too few units?
7. should I have more zone of recruit for units and have more local specialists?
8. comments or better suggestions regarding the muslim, khazar and magyar units are welcome. I couldn't find that many sources about their armies so the current tech tree could be wrong

[Agraes]

Hi all, I have some historic knowledge to display (sorry for my approximative english), about Brittany (where Im coming from).

Brittany was colonised by Romano-Brittons during the V and the VIth century, they come from Domnonia and Dyfed principaly. The Tierns (or little kings) of the Britons create 3 main kingdoms : Cornouailles, Domnonée and Bro-Erec.

In the late VIth century the Frank Clothaire fight with the Bretons and killed Conomor, a great breton leader.

During the reign of Carloman, the Franks overcame the Bretons who became their vassals.
But after the death of Louis le Pieux, about 843, Nominoé, who was the governor of Brittany and also a breton noble, take the head of an unrest against the new king of the Francs, Charles le Chauve, and win the victory of Ballon. It is only at this time that the franks countys of Rennes and Nantes becamed part of Brittany.
His son Erispoé became King of Brittany, after the victory of Messac against Charles. But Erispoé was killed by his cousin, Salomon. Salomon became king, and the franks give him the Cotentin (part of actuel Normandy).

When the Vikings rushed Brittany coast, they were going to make it a second normandy, with a lot of colonies like the island of Groix or a principauty next Nantes.
Alain Barbetorte was the grandson of the last king, Alain the Great, he have grew in the court of Aethelstan of Wessex. But he came back in Brittany and won the victory of Trans against the Norses, but then he can't be a king so a became the first duke of Brittany. Brittany stay independant from France until 1532.

Bretons have at the time of Nominoé a powerful war cavalry : they ride little horses, threw javelots in the face of the heavy frank infantry and go back.

I think it will be good too make the Bretons a rebel factions with this special cavalry unit recrutable, or eventually a real faction. At this time they have keep some relations with their cousins of Wales and Cornwall.

So if you want other informations about the Bretons, tell me. I can give you chronology or scans of the cavalry.

Also, this is a site dedicated to the dark age in Britain (V to the VIIth century but you can find infos) : www.earlybritishkingdoms.com

I have a project for a mod about the dark ages and the arthurian period, but I will made it only this automn, after the release of Barbarians Invasions.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Hi Agraes. As you might know, the R:TW engine has a limit to the number of factions you can have, and we've already reached that limit. Brittany will not be an own faction, but we plan to, if there's time and room for it, make all the rebels of the different provinces in the mod use troops typical to the region, either as unique units for the rebels faction, or by using almost similar units from the units that are already owned by the other factions. Either way, I'm thankful for the information you posted.

[Agraes]

Ok no matter

Anyway, I will enjoy your mod cause High Middle Age is a period I like so much, if I gather information on other Celts factions such as Welsh ; I will give transmeet it.

So Good Luck

[Rodion Romanovich]

So if you want other informations about the Bretons, tell me. I can give you chronology or scans of the cavalry.

If you know what city/town/village in Britanny was most important around 850 AD that'd be of much help.

You also said you were good at Welsh history? Well, in the province list I've got the provinces:
* Gwyned (northern Wales) - ?
* Powys (middle Wales) - ?
* Gwent (southern Wales) - ?
* Dyfed (western Wales) - ?
* West Wealas / Cerniu / Cornwall - southwest England
I don't know which cities/towns/villages to use there either.

[Rodion Romanovich]

NEWS UPDATE May 24th, 2005
=======================
Province and tech tree lists updated. The province list is almost complete now but there are some regions which are very hard to find info about. Mostly North africa and Middle east regions lack good sources.

[Agraes]

Mmm for Brittany the must will be to make 2 provinces : Brittany (Rebels) and Brittany March (Rennes and Nantes Counties).

In Brittany the main city can be Vannes (the name became Gwened in Breton), it was not the city where the kings where olding their court (they got palaces) but it was an important city.
In Brittany march, the capital may be Rennes or Nantes (the biggest), this march was made of two counties.

As I know, this is the main cities for the early middle age (V-VIth century) in Wales. Otherway you can refer to the cities in Viking Invasion

Gwent : Caerleon-upon-Uisc
Dyfed : Carmarthen (Caer-Myrddin)
Cerniu : Isca (modern Exeter) or Tintagel (a real place but was it an important stronghold in the IXth century ?)
Gwynedd : Deganwy, or Din Conwy (was the fortress of Maelgun Gwynedd, but it was destructed in 850)

Also, make Strathclyde as a rebel faction : it was a briton kingdom that became part of Scotland in the XIth century if I remeber.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Ok, nice. Do you know where I can find a good map indicating exactly where they cities are situated? I already have some maps but they aren't complete, especially for the Wales area, where they aren't showing a single town whereas they show around 50 towns for the England part of Britain...

Strathclyde will be rebels, yes.

[Rodion Romanovich]

@ALL mod team members: I've started work on campaign map again. If things keep going as well as they've done today I'll probably have something ready to show screenshots from in one or two weeks from now.

[skeletor]

Aje....

Looking forward to that. My work have been a bit slow lately, and i have only half finished unit's yet. I had to do some try and fails, and that takes time, but unit's are comming.

Keep up the good work..

-Skel-

[Rodion Romanovich]

unit's are comming

Nice, now I'm jumping too

[oj121]

Hey guys im a specialist historian on Medieval Britain and im from Wales so im sure i can help you.

As for the provinces, the Pembroke region of Wales as far east as Swansea was known as Deaubaerth (mind the spelling) and Gwent wasnt an area either, it was known as something different, joining all of South east wales. As for NorthWales you have Powys and Gwynydd. I love Welsh history and ive studied it in great detail, although i specialised in King John. If you want any help email me at oj121@hotmail.com and i will help if i can.

[GoreBag]

Things look really good here so far; I'm impressed. I have a suggestion, though. I've heard that when William the Conqueror invaded in 1066, the Saxon force that fought against him made particular use of slings. This may need to be verified, but I thought it might be a noteworthy addition to the Saxon roster.

[Wikingus]

As a total Viking fanatic, I am awaiting this mod and drooling!

[Rodion Romanovich]

Thanks, it's fun to hear that the work is being appreciated!

@NeonGod: I believe the saxon force at Hastings was mostly infantry (huscarles with axes and large round shields and fyrdmen with spears) but it's possible they had a few slingers too. What's your source, I can't find anything special about saxon slingers.

[oj121]

The thing with Saxon Slingers is that they were just a regional unit of no particular importance. Harold had to find some form of missile defence at Hastings as he had left his archers at Stamford Bridge(Noob) and as a result all he could muster were a few slingers. I suppose it could be worth including them as a basic missile unit for the Saxons with archers being a level 2 upgrade?!?!?! Although small amounts were present at such an important battle they weren't regarded as anything other than emergency troops, but to be fair id prefer slingers rather than nothing!

[Kamahl]

Factions:
=======
REAL FACTIONS
- Norway - pagan
- Sweden - pagan
- Denmark - pagan
- Rus - orthodox
- Normandy - catholic
- Saxons - catholic
- Scots - catholic
- Irish - catholic
- Welsh - catholic
- France - catholic
- Holy roman empire - catholic
- Kingdom of Lotharingia - catholic
- Kingdom of Asturia - catholic
- Papal state - catholic
- Magyars - pagan
- Bulgars - orthodox
- Khazars - jewish
- Byzantine empire - orthodox
- Abbassids - muslim
- Al Andalus - muslim
- (and of course the Rebels)

Dont get me as ungreatfull for doing this but you forghot the slovanic ppl that were near the medditaranion sea and had a state named Karantania just after the total collapse of the roman empire

[Rodion Romanovich]

@Kamahl: There is a faction limit hardcoded in R:TW and that limit has already been reached, so no more factions can be added. If it had been possible we would have included several factions that aren't included now.

@oj121: You can get the first, simplest type of bow-armed troops in a level 1 building, I don't know what you mean with level 2 upgrade?!?!

After some consideration I've decided to include slingers in the saxon unit rooster too.

[King Ragnar]

On the slinger theory they weren't really slingers, they just had men behind the shield wall throwing big rocks/stones and javelins as the Normans advanced up the hill.

[oj121]

They can be loosely regarded as slingers as they used whatever they could to hurl rocks and slings would have been readily available.

What i meant by level 1 and 2 is maybe with the saxons, when you build a building on the archery route, maybe the first type of building can only produce slingers, then maybe as the settlement expands and you can improve the building, then archers become available.

[Rodion Romanovich]

On the slinger theory they weren't really slingers, they just had men behind the shield wall throwing big rocks/stones and javelins as the Normans advanced up the hill.

Ok. All factions, saxons included, already have javelinmen so that solves the javelin problem. Adding a stone thrower unit isn't a good idea though, neither is it good to give many troops an ability to throw stones. Perhaps slingers is the best way to represent them after all? I'm not sure... Right now they have slingers but I don't believe we'll create more than one, generic slinger unit, so it's easy to decide about whether saxons will have slingers or not later. My opinion right now is that I actually think they shouldn't have any...

[GoreBag]

Ok. All factions, saxons included, already have javelinmen so that solves the javelin problem. Adding a stone thrower unit isn't a good idea though, neither is it good to give many troops an ability to throw stones. Perhaps slingers is the best way to represent them after all? I'm not sure... Right now they have slingers but I don't believe we'll create more than one, generic slinger unit, so it's easy to decide about whether saxons will have slingers or not later. My opinion right now is that I actually think they shouldn't have any...

Were javelins really the catch-all basic missile unit used by all of those cultures? I've never heard anything about Germanic javelins.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Were javelins really the catch-all basic missile unit used by all of those cultures? I've never heard anything about Germanic javelins.

Javelins are such simple weapons that everyone can get hold of one if they want it. It's probably older or as old as the hand-held spear and all you need to do is really cut down a branch or a small tree and sharpen one edge of it. However, only a few factions had javelinmen of greater importance and therefore only a few have javelinmen of higher quality available in their tech trees. As you see the javelins are in the militia complex building system whereas the archers, who are the more standardized missile troops at the time, are in a specific complex building system and are much superior to the javelins in most cases.

[skeletor]

It sounds a little exotic. I i've also reard about the slingers used at Hastings, and i also belive that people throwing rocks in battle was rather common. I think i read some were about scots using them regularly . They could have short range, and otherwise be pretty crappy (maybe mercs). The headhurlers have a good model/animation for them.

- I'll look if i can find some sources of how mutch they were deployed.

-Skel-