Venezuela's Chavez accuses oil companies of massive tax evasion

[JAG]

*claps Adrian*

[The Wizard]

Exactly. And then it comes down to the capitalists and open market economists to clean up the ravage socialism left behind when it ran like hell from facing the problems.

And come now, don't go around ignoring the big problems in Venezuela by covering it up with small victories. That's like saying all was well in Stalin's 1930s USSR, because everybody could read and write, and there was good public transportation, and women and men were equal; all the while ignoring the massive social and personal cost that Stalin's industrialization of Russia cost.

As I said; socialism can create big economical growth for a while, but then it just caves in and the entire conjunctural situation gets too complex for the central organ to understand and control it all. That's when the mess comes. And that's when socialism runs. And that's when others have to clean it up.



~Wiz

[Adrian II]

Exactly. And then it comes down to the capitalists and open market economists to clean up the ravage socialism left behind when it ran like hell from facing the problems.

A sustained ten percent growth in a Third World Country looks good to me, Wizard. And the Chicago School of capitalism favoured by seven U.S. presidents in a row and many of their Latin American cronies have never managed to clean up barrios, so let's give Chavez, Lula and the others a chance shall we? Why do you think that nine out of twelve Latin American countries have elected lefties to govern them now that the accursed Soviet Union is gone? For heaven's sake man, half of them are working wholeheartedly with the IMF..

[Gawain of Orkeny]

A sustained ten percent growth in a Third World Country looks good to me, Wizard.

The Germans thought Hitler looked good too and he sure gave them real sustained growth much higher than that. Of course when you rob the rich and hand it out to the poor you will get an intial surge of growth. But when youve taxed the rich out of existance where to you turn for your free ride? History supports my position.

[Byzantine Prince]

Yes Chavez=Hitler. Great job Gawain.

[Adrian II]

History supports my position.

You sound like Castro.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Yes Chavez=Hitler. Great job Gawain.

I didnt directly compare him to Hitler I only said that they were or are both seen as heroes by their gemeral public at least at the start. We will have to wait to make the final judgement on Chavez.

Maybe you like the Stalin comparison better as he was a communist. But then he was such a nice guy.

[The Wizard]

Yep, and the Cultural Revolution brought great gains as well... far greater than Deng Xiao Ping's idea...



~Wiz

[Byzantine Prince]

He was a very convivial fellow that Stalin.

Chavez is not a communis though, and neither is he a racist fascist that wants to invade South America and therefore do what you call 'something similar to Hitler'.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

and therefore do what you call 'something similar to Hitler'.

I made no such remark. All I said is that they both are or were looked at as saviors when they first took control . Spin that anyway you like.

[Adrian II]

I made no such remark. All I said is that they both are or were looked at as saviors when they first took control . Spin that anyway you like.

The comparison with Hitler is wrong for all sorts of reasons. A main difference being that Hitler installed a military regime, Chavez a democracy, including the people's right to subject the president to a referendum between elections. He defended his people against coup plotters supported by the U.S. government, something that has apparently gone completely unnoticed in the United States. I haven't registered any protest from you about it.

Yet this is what it's all about, Gawain. This isn't 1973. Democratic socialism is alive in your 'backyard' and attempts to 'lose' elected leaders aren't as easy as they used to be.

I'd say the mere fact that Washington supported those Venezuelan gorillas in 2003 proves that George W. Bush' words about spreading democracy in the world are propaganda and we shouldn't take them at face value. Killing or deposing elected leaders is criminal. Maybe you don't care. The rest of the world does. If you ever want to understand why so many people in the world hate the U.S., look no further than this example.

[JAG]

All I can do is say very well said Adrian, so true.

[The Wizard]

As if Bush's policy is any news. Monroe doctrine, my friends, early 19th century. Then good ol' Teddy in the early 20th.

I still don't see any reaction of you socialists at Chavez's repression of those who oppose him (oh, about half the country).



~Wiz

[Crazed Rabbit]

I suppose they think some people just have to suffer, for that etheral goal, that haunting, phantom of a goal that is 'the public good'.

What's funny is that they always say capitalism is slavery, then start going on about how they have to rob you, force you to work, etc., for the public good. Socialism really is slavery, because they want you to work without reward for your work, in service of other people.

Naturally, people don't work at all, but do become extremely needy.

And why have these socialists been completely unwilling to answer any hard questions about the nature of socialism? Instead we here how, since Chavez allowed a rigged referendum, he is 'democratic', even while he changes the constitution and throws dissenters in jail.

Crazed Rabbit

[Byzantine Prince]

I suppose they think some people just have to suffer, for that etheral goal, that haunting, phantom of a goal that is 'the public good'.

What's funny is that they always say capitalism is slavery, then start going on about how they have to rob you, force you to work, etc., for the public good. Socialism really is slavery, because they want you to work without reward for your work, in service of other people.

Naturally, people don't work at all, but do become extremely needy.

And why have these socialists been completely unwilling to answer any hard questions about the nature of socialism? Instead we here how, since Chavez allowed a rigged referendum, he is 'democratic', even while he changes the constitution and throws dissenters in jail.

Crazed Rabbit

I beleave the line I'm looking for is: "Man is doomed to be free." - Sartre

[Crazed Rabbit]

And what does that mean? That you think man should not be free, but live on your whims and what you decide to be good for him? I don't quite understand what your getting at.

And do you concede, by your silence, that socialism is terrible, doomed to fail, and goes against man's nature?

Crazed Rabbit

[Byzantine Prince]

Au Contraire. Socialism is great. Man is doomed to be free so slavery and work are all subjective. If you think you are free and don't wanna work you won't be trully free.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

The comparison with Hitler is wrong for all sorts of reasons. A main difference being that Hitler installed a military regime, Chavez a democracy, including the people's right to subject the president to a referendum between elections

First off once again I didnt compare him to Hitler but I did compare their influence of their countries economies and the reaction of their people to them. I in no way said he was an evil psyhcopath like Hitler. Again you spin it anyway you like. Also democracy is no better than socialism in its pure form if not worse.

Yet this is what it's all about, Gawain. This isn't 1973. Democratic socialism is alive in your 'backyard' and attempts to 'lose' elected leaders aren't as easy as they used to be.

I never said it was or did I say we should remove him. If his people want him so bad its their choice and in the future mark my words it is they who will have to pay the price of what hes doing now. It looks to me like a sure recipe for disaster.

[JAG]

I beleave the line I'm looking for is: "Man is doomed to be free." - Sartre

Condemned to be free actually, but the point remains the same.

Au Contraire. Socialism is great. Man is doomed to be free so slavery and work are all subjective. If you think you are free and don't wanna work you won't be trully free.

Is of course completely true. Slaves were still totally free, it was simply the options of their choices they had which were abhorrent.

[Byzantine Prince]

Thanks for that correction JAG.

Oh I got my first Sartre book!
I got Being and Nothingness because I couldn't find the other one you mentioned anywhere.

I still have to finish up my reading of Nietzsche though. Soon I'll start reading that too.

[JAG]

Well good luck reading it without an expert Sartre philosopher on hand, that is one hell of a hard book to read and grasp. Mainly because of the terrible grammar.