The US Health Care System Not as Heartless as Some Would Have You Believe

[Don Corleone]

Invariably, whenever we get into discussions of health-care, and one payer systems in here, people use the US as an example of the 'haves' and 'have-nots'. Even though defenders of the US system point out that hospitals cannot deny treatment based on the ability to pay, many people on these boards claim the defenders are (sometimes willfully) wrong and that the US does in fact deny treatment to all but the wealthiest Americans as a matter of course. If that's the case, please explain why Congress is issuing emergency funding to hospitals in border states to treat illegal immigrants:

We're nowhere near as tight with health care as you say

Of particular note:

Members of Congress from border states had sought the money. They said treatment of illegal immigrants imposed a huge financial burden on many hospitals, which are required to provide emergency care to patients who need it, regardless of their immigration status or ability to pay.

Now, they do point out that hospitals are allowed to try to determine a patient's citizenship status, but they are not allowed to deny treatment, regardless of the answers they receive. In other words, I'm allowed to try to get information from you in the hopes I might get paid one day, but I'm not allowed to hinder your care, even if you refuse to cooperate. Game, set, match.

[Ironside]

So you only end up bankrupt?

deuce

[LittleGrizzly]

My understanding is they'll cover you for emergency's but what about non-emergencys can you get anything treated or are there limitations ?

[Don Corleone]

Irosnside, not exactly. What appears to upset those on the Left is that we have the colossal gall to still actually assess a cost to health care. But as I've said time and time again, if you can't pay, nobody can deny you care and they could go to jail for attempting to do so, even surreptitiously. A large percentage of Americans use the emergency room of their local hospital as their regular physician, for this very reason.

But we're not going broke. This is part of why health care costs in America have outpaced inflation. Most of our hospitals are not-for-profit, so they don't have large cash reserves sitting around to soak the slack up. They pass the cost along to those people do have insurance or can pay their bills out of pocket.

[Don Corleone]

Depends on what you mean by non-emergency Griz. Yes, you can get checkups and get long term health issues resolved. No, if you're a whino, you can't walk into a hospital and get free viagra or plastic surgery.

[Ironside]

And your oppinion on a solution for this problem is...? I assume you know mine.

1-0 in set

0-15

[LittleGrizzly]

Depends on what you mean by non-emergency Griz. Yes, you can get checkups and get long term health issues resolved. No, if you're a whino, you can't walk into a hospital and get free viagra or plastic surgery.

i wouldn't expect free viagra or plastic surgery there not free over here (not 100% sure on viagra it might be allowed in some cases)

im having headaches but cant afford to pay anything can i get a check up to try and identify the problem maybe i'd need tests done and if they discover some discomforting illness but not life threatening but requiring some longer term treatment.

would they allow that with the inability to pay ?

[Don Corleone]

This is my point Ironside. We don't have the problems you all think we do. Nobody gets turned away for lack of ability to pay. If somebody tried that, they'd 1) have the IRS go over their books for the past 5 years 2) they'd be facing contempt of Congress charges and 3) they'd probably wind up doing jail time. The idea that 40% of our population is wandering around over here without access to proper health care is a myth.

Perhaps if you could articulate the problem you see, I could offer a possible solution. For example, doctor's fees.... put in two torte reforms 1) limiting liability in non-culpable malpractice suits and 2) forcing the losing party to pay the legal bills when the lawsuit is shown to be extraneous. You'd see liablity insurance premiums drop overnight if those two pieces of legislation would get passed.

[Don Corleone]

Griz,
In the case you describe, you'd be given some paperwork to fill out. Whether you do so, and whether the information is accurate, yes, they'd have to treat you. You would technically be responsible fiscally for paying the hospital or clinic back, but they'd have to accept any payment terms you offered, because they can't say no. If you told them "look, I don't work, but I want to do the right thing. I'll give you 10 bucks a month", they'd still have to treat you. No kidding.

[LittleGrizzly]

Griz,
In the case you describe, you'd be given some paperwork to fill out. Whether you do so, and whether the information is accurate, yes, they'd have to treat you. You would technically be responsible fiscally for paying the hospital or clinic back, but they'd have to accept any payment terms you offered, because they can't say no. If you told them "look, I don't work, but I want to do the right thing. I'll give you 10 bucks a month", they'd still have to treat you. No kidding.

would this apply to almost all healthcare (things which require attention not things like viagra and plastic surgery)

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

Griz,
In the case you describe, you'd be given some paperwork to fill out. Whether you do so, and whether the information is accurate, yes, they'd have to treat you. You would technically be responsible fiscally for paying the hospital or clinic back, but they'd have to accept any payment terms you offered, because they can't say no. If you told them "look, I don't work, but I want to do the right thing. I'll give you 10 bucks a month", they'd still have to treat you. No kidding.

If you can just dicatate how much you pay, why does anyone get life insurance or pay at all?

[Don Corleone]

First, the quality of care you receive in an emergency room or a clinic is nowhere near as good as you would receive from an actual practice. If it's not an emergency, plan on waiting a long time (4+ hours). If you leave, when you return you start from scratch.

Second, you're cheating the system if you claim you cannot pay but you really can, but I don't know what the penalties are for this.

Finally, as I said, a lot of people actually do just that. They go in, tell the hospital they can't pay, get treated and go on their merry way. Why do you think Congress has to bail these hospitals out?

[Nelson]

The problem with American health care isn’t that everyone can’t get emergency help. If you’re not DOA the ambulance will get you to a hospital whoever you are. But because so many people have no insurance they don’t get any preventive care.

Instead of getting regular checkups that can lead to meds for risks like hypertension, high cholesterol or diabetes, to name just a few common ailments, the uninsured simply have strokes and heart attacks first. THEN they get some care after the 911 call. Until they leave the hospital at least.

One day, when enough voters are without health care, the USA will find a way to provide adequate health benefits to everyone, universally. Until then, we will go on looking to all the world like a place run by the selfish “I’ve got mine” crowd of miserly Scrooges.

[Don Corleone]

You absolutely can get regular health care. What do you think County Health Departments are all about?

Your problem is that not everyone gets the same level of care. Well, let me ask you this, how do you draw the line?

Let's take the Mickey Mantle example... somebody has drunk their liver away. Should they be guaranteed a stay at Cedar's for the most expensive, most experimental procedures available? If they want to pay for it out of their own pocket, that's one thing. But why should I have to?

[Nelson]

It is too easy to hang your argument on self inflicted injuries like alcoholism. That’s like using the “welfare queen” stories to avoid buying food for other poor folks. Should any amount of fraud or any imperfection at all in benefit distribution deter quality health care for all? I think not. Not for a society as affluent as ours. The good could be far greater than the evil.

And how many counties are there in the US? Because that’s how often benefits can differ. We all need health care, from Bill Gates to the panhandlers we see on street corners. Ruinous costs should not loom like such terrible potential devastation over so many uninsured people.

Don, I don’t pretend to have all the answers. I expect that the well healed among us will always be able to get the best possible care. But what we have now if woeful IMO.

[Xiahou]

Instead of getting regular checkups that can lead to meds for risks like hypertension, high cholesterol or diabetes, to name just a few common ailments, the uninsured simply have strokes and heart attacks first. THEN they get some care after the 911 call. Until they leave the hospital at least.

I have insurance and don't get regular checkups. I try to get one every few years or so, but at my age, if I'm not having problems, Im not too concerned. I constantly hear advertisements for free cholesterol or diabetes screenings and there are clinics that give care for little or nothing. If you dont get checkups, for the overwhelming majority at least, it's because you didn't want one.

Don, I believe that 40% number you mentioned has been since proven false- if you were referring to people without insurance. The actual number is believed to be significantly lower.

[Fragony]

I don't see what is so bad about USA healthcare system, if you have no insurance you are pretty much screwed here as well (you will be helped but you will have serious debts, just like over there). The only difference is that over here you have to wait for months even if you have insurance.

[ICantSpellDawg]

I like the US and our health care
most jobs with even incredibly low wages have the oppurtunity for a decent health care plan

and i know friends of mine in boston - one of which has NO insurance and wasnt even a student who got a COLONOSCOPY and regular health care for nothing for a prolonged period of time

and im sitting here paying out me butt....
im joking - i get them regularly and love my health care - i have a problem - i go in and see a doctor

i need a surgury - i go in and get it that night

I like thise country very much in terms of standard of living

[Sigurd]

Johnny Q...

[BDC]

You treat immigrants because otherwise they give horrible diseases to everyone they come into contact with, which then spread, and end up costing lots of lives and millions of dollars.

Which is pretty similar to why its cheaper to just give people free checkups and treatment straight away; much better than waiting until they are at death's door and it costs a fortune to get them back together.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Don, I believe that 40% number you mentioned has been since proven false- if you were referring to people without insurance. The actual number is believed to be significantly lower.

The actual number is more like 10%. Many here qualify for health benefits and dont even apply for them.

And how many counties are there in the US? Because that’s how often benefits can differ.

Well theres only 1 so I guess we have universal coverage.

First, the quality of care you receive in an emergency room or a clinic is nowhere near as good as you would receive from an actual practice.

Only as far as follow up goes. Whether you can pay or not they emergency room treats you the same.

You treat immigrants because otherwise they give horrible diseases to everyone they come into contact with, which then spread, and end up costing lots of lives and millions of dollars.

No we treat immigrants because the law says we cant refuse anyone treatment. There are even cases where they have sued the hospitals for malpractice and won millions.

Don, I don’t pretend to have all the answers. I expect that the well healed among us will always be able to get the best possible care. But what we have now if woeful IMO.

Move to Canada or Cuba where they have universal healthcare and you will see woefull. Its just the opposite of here. Yes you can get free check ups and the like but then when they find something wrong you have to wait months or years to have it fixed.

[Ironside]

US counties


I don't think that qualifies as one Gawain.

Move to Canada or Cuba where they have universal healthcare and you will see woefull. Its just the opposite of here. Yes you can get free check ups and the like but then when they find something wrong you have to wait months or years to have it fixed.

So you treat all people, get non-vital operations done immidiatly, got the best and most expensive care in the world, get sued on millions for maltreatments and everything still cost less than socialised healthcare.

It's brilliant!!!!
And why to I smell something fishy? hmmm...

[Krypta]

"Move to Canada or Cuba where they have universal healthcare and you will see woefull."

Ah, so tempting...

[Gawain of Orkeny]

I don't think that qualifies as one Gawain.

Me bad I read countries not counties

So you treat all people, get non-vital operations done immidiatly, got the best and most expensive care in the world, get sued on millions for maltreatments and everything still cost less than socialised healthcare.

See even you agree it still cost less than socialised healthcare.

[Ironside]

See even you agree it still cost less than socialised healthcare.

Well, that is what is claimed. Otherwise it would be quite stupid.

"Our system is better on all points and only cost twice as much than your system."
Well duh! It should be!

Actually to make your system go around I will have to say this. It seems that the poor get "free" treatment while the rich ends up paying for it. If that isn't income redistribution I don't know what is.

[KukriKhan]

Maria Hernandez, my 60-year old neighbor, emigrated legally here in the 60's, via a guest-worker program. Naturalized in 1969.

Her older brother (from Sinaloa, Mexico) visits every year. Last month, on his annual visit, he collapsed during dinner. Maria called 911. In the Emergency Room, after tests, they determined that he had tuberculosis.

Now, 3 times a week, a home-care nurse arrives at Maria's house with her brother's meds, and checks up on him. Free of charge. The ambulance ride and ER visit were also free, after Maria filled out papers detailing her (low) income.

That's how uninsured non-citizens are treated in our county. If the guy had no relatives here, I'm not certain ... I'm sure he'd have gotten ER treatment, but maybe not the homecare stuff.

[Don Corleone]

The number one problem with the American healthcare is not a payer or a medical issue. Lawyers have convinced people that unless a medical procedure/diagnosis/ prescription works 110% the way described, they're entitled to get rich. We are the most litigious society on the planet, and the majority of all lawsuits filed are for 'malpractice'. But understand, the American definition of 'malpacrtice' is radically different than the rest of the world. The high cost of malpractice insurance for hospitals and doctors, due to repeated abuses by the trial attorneys, is putting many doctors out of business. Those that stay move into less risky, and less necessary fields of medicine, or to states that have implemented torte reforms. Even simple reforms, like requiring a lawyer to file a case in the state where the 'malpractice' occurred are bitterly fought by the Democrats, because the trial attorneys are forcing them to.

[Beirut]

I saw a documentary with Walter Cronkite that showed film of a woman with brain cancer being told by her doctor that it was operable, and that she could be saved, but since she didn't have insurance or money, that the hospital refused to treat her and she would have to go home and die.

They also showed a case of a very sick person who was covered by her employer's insurance. The insurance company told the employer to fire her, thereby cancelling her coverage, or the company's rates would go up by hundreds of percent. That would mean no one would be covered. She lost her job.

For-profit medicine is not merely wrong, it is a perverted ideal, a horrid and barbaric practice, and an abomination imposed by the government on its people. If the government can use the people's money to enact laws, enforce those laws, build jails, imprison us, draft us into wars and force us to kill, all for the public good(?), there is not one, not one decent reason why they cannot take care of the health of the citizens. All this cow crud about competition being good is just that. Crud! How many people would be dee-lighted! to be treated at a top notch army hospital? I'd say, oh, all of them. Since when are army doctors looked at as second rate since they don't face competition?

For God's sake, it's literally a matter of national security. 3000 die in a terrorist act and hundreds of billions are spent and hundred of thousands are mobilized with the full force of the government. Entire countries are shaken to their roots. Cancer kills millions, weakens the country, destroys lives full of potential to help and strengthen the state, and the government encourages us to have charity bake sales and walks to raise cash. What a disgusting and insulting crock of ****!

[Beirut]

Move to Canada or Cuba where they have universal healthcare and you will see woefull. Its just the opposite of here. Yes you can get free check ups and the like but then when they find something wrong you have to wait months or years to have it fixed.

The American Army sucked in the mid-70s after Vietnam. Terrible moral and efficiency. But the army was not disbanded, it was fixed. The system was not in need of being destroyed, only repaired. Canadian medicine is exactly the same. We have a fantastic system, I've used it and my family has used it and our people are the best in the world. The efficiency simply needs to be upgraded.

[Don Corleone]

"Our system is better on all points and only cost twice as much than your system."
Well duh! It should be!

Our system wouldn't cost twice as much if suing your doctor wasn't the first thing in every patient's mind. If they had to pay legal bills for the defendant when their claims were shown to be patently ridiculous, this nonsense would stop immediately.

Come over here and watch American television sometime. It's impossible to watch an hour of television and not see an amublance chaser on TV saying "Were you injured? Have you been sick? You deserve to get rich, and I'll make anyone associated pay out the nose. I'll sue the company that made the roadsign you were watching when you crashed your car".

Actually to make your system go around I will have to say this. It seems that the poor get "free" treatment while the rich ends up paying for it. If that isn't income redistribution I don't know what is.

Almost... it's more accurate to say that those who can pay, do so. Those who can't don't. One thing that hasn't come up yet is the whole concept of credit. If you blow off a hospital or a doctor bill, they are legally required to keep treating you. But you can forget about getting a mortgage or a new car after that trick. Expect your credit card interest rates to skyrocket, too. Poor people generally don't care about their credit score, so it's really more a restriction on the rich (as you say) and the middle class, who care quite a bit about this stuff.