The US Health Care System Not as Heartless as Some Would Have You Believe

[Don Corleone]

I saw a documentary with Walter Cronkite that showed film of a woman with brain cancer being told by her doctor that it was operable, and that she could be saved, but since she didn't have insurance or money, that the hospital refused to treat her and she would have to go home and die.

This is patently illegal and the hospital could have been shut down. Any management involved in this discussion could be facing jail time. Walter Cronkite is an avowed mouthpiece for the trial attorneys, and this is how he funds his retirement. It's a shame that a journalistic icon like him is selling his integrity like that.

They also showed a case of a very sick person who was covered by her employer's insurance. The insurance company told the employer to fire her, thereby cancelling her coverage, or the company's rates would go up by hundreds of percent. That would mean no one would be covered. She lost her job.

Again, this is illegal. Her employer is facing 1) significant fines from the labor bureau 2) the state regulating authorities will remove their 'right' to provide insurance for their employees (in other words, they won't be able to hire anyone) and 3) individuals involved in this decision could face personal liablity, including jail time.

Beirut, I appreciate that this is an emotional issue for you, but the fact remains, at the end of the day, all economic decisions stem from who makes the decision? In your system, your government tells you what treatment you are allowed to have, regardless of how much you'd be willing to pay for it. In ours, an insurance company tells you "we'll pay this much, for this treatment. If you're willing to pay it out of your own pocket, go ahead and do it". Which sounds more fair to you?

[Redleg]

I saw a documentary with Walter Cronkite that showed film of a woman with brain cancer being told by her doctor that it was operable, and that she could be saved, but since she didn't have insurance or money, that the hospital refused to treat her and she would have to go home and die.

They also showed a case of a very sick person who was covered by her employer's insurance. The insurance company told the employer to fire her, thereby cancelling her coverage, or the company's rates would go up by hundreds of percent. That would mean no one would be covered. She lost her job.

For-profit medicine is not merely wrong, it is a perverted ideal, a horrid and barbaric practice, and an abomination imposed by the government on its people. If the government can use the people's money to enact laws, enforce those laws, build jails, imprison us, draft us into wars and force us to kill, all for the public good(?), there is not one, not one decent reason why they cannot take care of the health of the citizens. All this cow crud about competition being good is just that. Crud! How many people would be dee-lighted! to be treated at a top notch army hospital? I'd say, oh, all of them. Since when are army doctors looked at as second rate since they don't face competition?

For God's sake, it's literally a matter of national security. 3000 die in a terrorist act and hundreds of billions are spent and hundred of thousands are mobilized with the full force of the government. Entire countries are shaken to their roots. Cancer kills millions, weakens the country, destroys lives full of potential to help and strengthen the state, and the government encourages us to have charity bake sales and walks to raise cash. What a disgusting and insulting crock of ****!

Careful now - this little rant is just that. I can quote horror stories of the Canadian Socialized Medicine that equal and exceed the ones that you just mentioned.

As stated before people who can not pay and do not have health insurance do get treated and it does not cost them. Is it preventive medicine - no, is it a perfect system, no - however once again instead of looking into all aspects of the system that we do have here in the states you chose to rant about how our system works and complain about other necessities of our government at the same time.

I pay my taxes Beriut - and on my Pay stub there are three catergories of taxes taken out.

Federal Withholding that is geared torward the Federal Government General Fund.
Social Security which is geared to the governments Social Security Insurance Fund. Notice its not a welfare program or a retirement fund - which is the lie that many beliefe it is - the initial setup was for taking care of older people if they lived beyond the retirement age which is going up again.
And hold on to your head because its going to explode.

Medicare and Medicaid gets a portion of my earnings also which is matched by my employer.

Then I go to my property tax allocation - and guess what the local community hosiptal that is geared to providing aid and healthcare to the poor in my community gets a portion of my property tax.

Then there is the county health clinic which provides free preventive health care for anyone -

Now should I go into the horror stories about the Canadian System that I have heard - or is it fair to say each system has its problems and shortfalls.

[Ironside]

Social Security which is geared to the governments Social Security Insurance Fund. Notice its not a welfare program or a retirement fund - which is the lie that many beliefe it is - the initial setup was for taking care of older people if they lived beyond the retirement age which is going up again.

I'm curious, does US have the problem with that people who gets unemployed around thier 50:ties have a huge problem of getting any jobs?

It's a known problem here atleast.

[Redleg]

For Instance Beriut

Canada's Medical Nightmare


Written By: Robert J. Cihak, M.D.
Published In: Health Care News
Publication Date: September 1, 2004
Publisher: The Heartland Institute

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For decades, Canadians have cast pitying glances at us poor American neighbors who actually have to pay for our medical care while they get theirs for "free."

Yet the major candidates in Canada's recent national election both agreed the country's health care system is failing. They made the usual socialist diagnosis of "not enough money." None of the candidates mentioned government control as what ails the Canadian system.

On this side of the border, Senator Edward Kennedy (D-Massachusetts), with presidential candidate Senator John Kerry, also from Massachusetts, in tow, promotes Canadian health care to U.S. voters, in the hope we too can have "free" medical care.


High Costs, Low Quality

A July 2004 study by the Vancouver-based Fraser Institute, Paying, More, Getting Less, concluded that after years of government control, the Canadian medical system is badly injured and bleeding citizens' hard-earned tax dollars. The institute compared health care systems in the industrialized countries in the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) and found Canada currently spends the most, yet ranks among the lowest on such indicators as access to physicians, quality of medical equipment, and key health outcomes.

One of the major reasons for this discrepancy is that, unlike the countries in the study that outperformed Canada--Sweden, Japan, Australia, and France, for example--Canada outlaws most private health care.

If the Canadian government says it provides a particular medical service, it is illegal for a Canadian citizen to pay for and obtain that service privately. At the same time, the Canadian government bureaucracy rations medical services. According to another Fraser Institute survey, Waiting Your Turn: Hospital Waiting Lists in Canada (13th edition, October 2003), a Canadian health care patient, on average, must wait 17.7 weeks for hospital treatment. Those who live in Saskatchewan waited an average of 30 weeks, those in Ontario a relatively expeditious 14 weeks.


Dying in Queues

In 1999, Dr. Richard F. Davies, a cardiologist at the University of Ottawa Heart Institute and professor of medicine at the University of Ottawa, described in remarks for the Canadian Institute for Health Information how delays affected Ontario heart patients scheduled for coronary artery bypass graft surgery. In a single year, for this one operation, the doctor said, "71 Ontario patients died before surgery, 121 were removed from the list permanently because they had become medically unfit for surgery," and 44 left the province to have the surgery, many having gone to the United States for the operation. (According to the Canadian Institute for Health Information, 33 Canadian hospitals performed approximately 22,500 bypass surgeries in 1998-99.)

In other words, 192 people either died or became too sick to have surgery before they could work their way to the front of the line.

In a May/June 2004 article in the journal Health Affairs, researcher Robert Blendon and colleagues described the results of a survey of hospital administrators in Australia, New Zealand, Great Britain, the United States, and Canada. Fifty percent of the Canadian hospital administrators said the average waiting time for a 65-year-old man requiring a routine hip replacement was more than six months. Not one American hospital administrator reported waiting periods that long. Eighty-six percent of American hospital administrators said the average waiting time was shorter than three weeks; only 3 percent of Canadian hospital administrators said their patients had this brief a wait.


Bare-Bones Health Care

Barring epidemics and other disasters, fewer than one out of 10 people in prosperous societies will face a major medical crisis in any one year. Those suffering people, however, are the ones who need help the most, and the aging of the baby boomers in the United States makes it likely more serious illnesses will afflict more Americans in the next couple of decades. The kind of minor health care services the Canadian system provides well are not what America's aging Baby Boomers will need most urgently in years to come.

America's health care system already includes too much Canadian-style bureaucratic delay and inefficiency. For example, the slow acceptance by Medicare and Medicaid of medical innovation, their exacting paperwork requirements, delayed and low payments of claims, and the threat of overzealous prosecution by health care bureaucrats are driving doctors out of business and giving patients fewer medical options.

Fixing those flaws would seem to be a much more promising prospect than a further move down the road Canada has followed to high costs and low quality of health care.

Yep completely flawless 71 people die in one province waiting for an operation

[Redleg]

I'm curious, does US have the problem with that people who gets unemployed around thier 50:ties have a huge problem of getting any jobs?

It's a known problem here atleast.

There is another program - the unemployment insurance which every employer pays into a general fund for that state. Unfortunately it will only last so long and is often 50% or less of what the wage earner was makin prior to his/her termination from employment.

There are anti-age discrimination laws that are geared to prevent just what you are talking about - however I do believe there are problems along what you are also experiencing in your country.

However saying that - if an individual wants work - its often not hard to find a low paying service industry job - ie fast food restraunts, Janitor services and the like.

[Byzantine Prince]

Couldn't agree with you more Beirut. There's so many deseases that kill more then terrorists ever could every year. Those people I guess are not important enough to get any media attention so people and senators combined ignore them.

[Beirut]

Careful now - this little rant is just that. I can quote horror stories of the Canadian Socialized Medicine that equal and exceed the ones that you just mentioned.

And rant I do. For many of us Canadians, socialized health care is the be all, end all, of nationhood. For what other reason do you form a group except for the protection and betterment of the group.

Absolutely there are horror stories in the Canadian system. Lots of them. I've seen them. But the idea of the system itself is sound, it simply needs better management.

The idea of for-profit medicine is in itself wrong, revolting, and to me, downright cowardly. It is the abrogation of the most fundemental of responsibilities between a government and it's people. It is allows the worst elements of our nature to interfere with what is not only good and right, but necessary to every single citizen.

To allow the idea of profit to interfere with health care, at any level, is the very worst of our behaviour and shows what a low level bunch of intellectual and moral clods we really are.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Absolutely there are horror stories in the Canadian system. Lots of them. I've seen them. But the idea of the system itself is sound, it simply needs better management.

Then take it out of the hands of the government or your doomed.

To allow the idea of profit to interfere with health care, at any level, is the very worst of our behaviour and shows what a low level bunch of intellectual and moral clods we really are.

The idea of profit in healthcare just like every other product in a free capitalistic econmy is to provide the best product at the most competitive cost. It improves healthcare. Money makes the Vorld go round, the vorld go around the vorld boom boom. I love that song.

It is allows the worst elements of our nature to interfere with what is not only good and right, but necessary to every single citizen.

Who are these 'worst elements'?

[The Black Ship]

With the US system availabilty of service, and ease of visitation are what you're paying for, just ask Canadian cancer patients that come to the States for treatment. Or, ask the English executive of a radio-pharmaceutical company that flew across the pond to be treated in what he felt to be a more timely fashion the the National Healthcare system deemed reasonable. Availability and ease drive the market.

The uninsured must be treated for any life-threatening illness, it's the law. The uninsured can also receive preventative care, and followup care...it's just not as easy. You have to work the system, find the clinics or aid agencies, put in some effort.

The patient descibed earlier with the inoperable brain tumor, denied the undescribed miracle treatment probably just let it drop, whereas if he/she, or more importantly their family made inquiries at other hospitals/facilities they would likely find someone willing to do the procedure - free. I know this to be true, I've seen it first-hand, I work at such a place. It is common practice for hospitals, doctor groups to dedicate a substantial economic investment into charity work(s).

[Redleg]

And rant I do. For many of us Canadians, socialized health care is the be all, end all, of nationhood. For what other reason do you form a group except for the protection and betterment of the group.

Absolutely there are horror stories in the Canadian system. Lots of them. I've seen them. But the idea of the system itself is sound, it simply needs better management.

The idea of for-profit medicine is in itself wrong, revolting, and to me, downright cowardly. It is the abrogation of the most fundemental of responsibilities between a government and it's people. It is allows the worst elements of our nature to interfere with what is not only good and right, but necessary to every single citizen.

To allow the idea of profit to interfere with health care, at any level, is the very worst of our behaviour and shows what a low level bunch of intellectual and moral clods we really are.

And the once again you are ignoring the reality of what I just stated - there is a federally funded health care system designed to take care of those who can not pay for thier own care. Our system is different then the Canadian System - and you don't see me ranting on how your government decides to care for its people no matter how much I disagree with it.

Lets us worry about how we function - the overwhelming majority of th nation at this time does not want socialized medicine - but are pursueing tort reform to prevent individuals from suing doctors out of business.

Your entitled to your opinion - but it seems that many Canadians come to the United States to get health care because of the failures of the Canadian Healthcare system. That to me that is more criminal, wrong and revolting then our system, because your government is failing just as bad as the United States in taking care of its people's health care. Your health care system can not adequately care for its own people - and you dare call the American system as worse. Laughable and sad at the same time.

More horror stories of the Canadian System

Take the tragic case of 18-year-old Joshua Fleuelling of Ontario, who died on Jan. 22 of asthma. It might be more accurate if the death certificate identified the cause of death as “acute failure of the Canadian health care system.” In his effort to become a patient, Joshua instead became a victim — a fatal example of just how sick a government-run health care system can get.

Joshua suffered a severe asthma attack and was rushed to a nearby hospital.
But his ambulance was turned away because the hospital was on “critical care
bypass,” meaning the emergency room was full. The additional 18 minutes it took to reach a second hospital apparently cost him his life.

And why was the emergency room full? Canadian officials recently explained
that Canada has been experiencing an outbreak of the flu. But why are people withthe flu going to the emergency room? Shouldn’t a model of government-run healthcare get those patients to a family physician?

Tit for tat Beriut. Edit: By the way if this would have happened in the states the Hospital and the staff could of been held both criminal and civil liable for their neglect - but I guess in Canada its perfectly acceptable to send a dying patient away to another hostipal to care for non-urgent sick people.

Edit: forgot link
http://www.txccri.org/publications/matthews.pdf#search='Failure%20of%20the%20Canadian%20Health%20Care%20System'

[Don Corleone]

Couldn't agree with you more Beirut. There's so many deseases that kill more then terrorists ever could every year. Those people I guess are not important enough to get any media attention so people and senators combined ignore them.

Well, where do you draw the line? At the end of the day, if we have a heart at all, how can we not sieze everyone's assets & property and use it to fund health care? There's all sorts of diseases we already spend billions on each year researching. Just ask the researchers, there's plenty more we could spend. In fact, let's dedicate our entire economy to this goal.

[Beirut]

...and you don't see me ranting on how your government decides to care for its people no matter how much I disagree with it.

Don't take it personally. I'm not after you or even the US, I am simply against the patient's ability to pay having any bearing whatsoever as far as health care is concerned. Regardless of the country. And yes, I am an unadultered fanatic as far as socilaized medice goes. Lenin was a conservative compared to me on this issue.

Your health care system can not adequately care for its own people - and you dare call the American system as worse. Laughable and sad at the same time.

Agreed. We have far to go. And the tragedies that have occured here are terrible. You will get no argument from me that Canadian health care is in dire need of repair. I am saying that a fully socialized health care is inherently better than for-profit health care. Perhaps not now as it is being practiced, but in concept, morality and foresight.

Laughable and sad at the same time.

Make 'em laugh, make 'em cry. I'm like those two theater faces aren't I?

[Don Corleone]

Don't take it personally. I'm not after you or even the US, I am simply against the patient's ability to pay having any bearing whatsoever as far as health care is concerned. Regardless of the country. And yes, I am an unadultered fanatic as far as socilaized medice goes. Lenin was a conservative compared to me on this issue.

Okay, well, let's start with taking your TV and other frivalous belongings and selling them to pay for the methadone clinic down the street. Fair?

[Krypta]

Hmm, I wonder how many articles I could find on the net that proves , how much of a horror story the American health care system is ? I wonder if I could find just one article that would prove my point ? Hmmm...

I tell you what, if you wanna frame the arguement in that way, we can have a post-off. You post one about how bad Canada's health care system is, and I will then post one on how bad America's is, and we can go back and forth like that until we can't google no more, tit for tat. No? Ok.

As far as this little snippet that essentially is proof of your "Horror" stories, Redleg, comon man. Albeit, awful that this kid died, lets look at the facts surrounding this case(and not just the little quote that you have provided and also without the emotion of words like fatal, sick, death certificate ).

"At 1:00 am on the morning of Jan. 14, 2000, 18-year-old Joshua Fleuelling was having trouble breathing. He had a history of asthma. Despite being given Ventolin and Serevent by his mother, he experienced severe respiratory distress, and at 1:48 am a call was made to 911 asking for an ambulance to transport him to the hospital. Fire personnel arrived first and administered oxygen. At 1:57 am a basic life-support ambulance crew arrived. As they began their assessment, Fleuelling collapsed and experienced full body convulsions. He did not have a pulse. Cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) was initiated and an oral airway inserted. The ambulance crew was advised by the dispatch centre that an advanced life-support unit was not available in the area. Two unsuccessful attempts were made to defibrillate his heart, and CPR was continued. A second request was made for advanced life-support, but a unit was still unavailable. The dispatch centre informed the crew that the nearest emergency department was on critical care bypass. A decision was made to go to another hospital, and the ambulance departed at 2:11 am. The emergency department at the first hospital was not contacted. Defibrillation was attempted again en route, but Fleuelling's heart remained asystolic. CPR was continued, and the ambulance arrived at the emergency department at 2:23 am. An endotracheal tube was inserted and a normal cardiac rhythm was eventually established; however, there was irreversible brain damage, and on Jan. 16, 2000, Fleuelling was declared dead.
Estimates vary as to the extent of the delay in reaching the emergency department. Newspaper reports suggested that the closest hospital was a 10-minute drive from the Fleuelling's home and that the second hospital was 18 minutes away.2 The family has estimated that only 3 to 4 minutes would have been needed to reach the first hospital and that the ambulance was required to travel 4 times as far.A coroner's inquest was held to examine the circumstances surrounding the death. The jury made recommendations with respect to asthma prevention, improvements in the ability of emergency personnel to respond to a problem and to provide advanced life-support, and resolution of emergency department overcrowding."

My Link

So, by this we can see that on that particular night, the initial emergency room was probably full and so they had to divert the kid to another hospital 8 minutes away. The question in this case seems to be whether that 3-4 minutes would have made the difference in his life, who knows, but it by no means points to a system that is falling apart, even remotely. This begs the question though :
Do American emergency rooms ever become so overloaded that, they may have to divert a patient to another hospital?
Should Canada build hospitals every 4 minutes apart such that this type of thing could be avoided in the future, I mean, 2 hospitals-8 minutes apart seems like an awfully long distance? What do you think?

BTW, There was an inquiry and the hospital and its "Critical Bypass Procedures" were reviewed and recommendations were put forth. I have the link to it if you would like to look at it.

I could go on, but who cares really? The bottom-line is I-like Beirut, like the system we have, and I don't nor will ever envy yours. You can call it a Horror, Socialist, Cuban, even the living embodiment of Lenin's grand plan, however, it doesn't seem to stop your elderly citizens from buying prescription drugs here, nor does it disway Canadian tax payers from subsidizing Americans, whenever your system can't provide something as simple as flu-shots(LOL) to you or your grandparents/children(as an example). Should I find that revolting, criminal, wrong? No, because I don't. I don't have any problems with helping you or any other American be it a grandparent or child, even if the Canadian tax payers have to take a hit. But thats the difference between seeing health care as a responsibility and not something that can be traded on the stock market the way somebody like Gawain does. I guess this just another example of, "just how sick a government-run health care system can get."

[Beirut]

Then take it out of the hands of the government...

The same day you privatize the US Army.

The idea of profit in healthcare just like every other product in a free capitalistic econmy is to provide the best product at the most competitive cost. It improves healthcare. Money makes the Vorld go round, the vorld go around the vorld boom boom. I love that song.

Then privatize the Army and Air Force and Navy. Why on Earth should the government run, what is considered by many Amricans, to be the most crucial of all efforts?

Who are these 'worst elements'?

Those who seek to make maximum profit with minimum effort. Let Wal-Mart executives run a hospital and then you will see the tragedy of profit and health care reach is zenith.

[Beirut]

Okay, well, let's start with taking your TV and other frivalous belongings and selling them to pay for the methadone clinic down the street. Fair?

You don't have to take my things. The tax money the government already takes from me is sufficient. It merely needs to be better managed.

[Don Corleone]

Look, as repugnant as you might find capitalism Beirut, the fact of the matter is when you remove cost from an equation, to the decision maker cost is no longer an issue. But it DOES cost something.

Example: Insurance companies in the US have found that simply raising co-payments on medical procedures (which usually cost hundreds if not thousands) from $25US to $30US, the numbers of procedures being performed drops dramatically. AND THIS IS WHEN THE PERSON THINKS IT COSTS $30!!!

I'm serious about this... if your doctor comes to you and says "Alright Beirut, I've been reading this journal here, and according to it, .03% of lumberjacks have been shown to be deficient in argon in their bloodstream, causing them to have more hot air than the average joe. I'm going to run a diagnostic on you". You ask how much it costs, and he says "Oh, don't worry about it. Your insurance will cover you". You say "cool, go ahead and do it". Now it turns out the procedure costs $15K US. Regardless of the results of the exam, you're perfectly healthy and nothing changes as a result of you having it, other than the doctor having performed another procedure, and some lab techs making a few extra bucks. Who gets hurt?

Without knowledge of relative cost, it's impossible as a consumer to make an informed decision about whether you want a medical procedure or not. If you're one of these 'do whatever it takes, I want to live as long as I possibly can' types, that's fine. I'm not, and I shouldn't have to pay out of my pocket for you to be. I should have to pay for your basic essential care, if you can't afford to, but I shouldn't be on the hook to give you any experimental procedure or test your doctor can come up with.

[Redleg]

Hmm, I wonder how many articles I could find on the net that proves , how much of a horror story the American health care system is ? I wonder if I could find just one article that would prove my point ? Hmmm...

I tell you what, if you wanna frame the arguement in that way, we can have a post-off. You post one about how bad Canada's health care system is, and I will then post one on how bad America's is, and we can go back and forth like that until we can't google no more, tit for tat. No? Ok.

Beriut made the first horror story comment - and you now get upset because I tit for tat for him. Do you understand the point I am making - that most medical systems have flaws in providing care for people - or did I strike the emotional cord that I was going for by doing what I did. Because that is exactly the same type of arguement that Beruit used. However I don't see you attempting to critize Beriut for using that exact same method first.

As far as this little snippet that essentially is proof of your "Horror" stories, Redleg, comon man. Albeit, awful that this kid died, lets look at the facts surrounding this case(and not just the little quote that you have provided and also without the emotion of words like fatal, sick, death certificate ).



My Link

So, by this we can see that on that particular night, the initial emergency room was probably full and so they had to divert the kid to another hospital 8 minutes away. The question in this case seems to be whether that 3-4 minutes would have made the difference in his life, who knows, but it by no means points to a system that is falling apart, even remotely. This begs the question though :
Do American emergency rooms ever become so overloaded that, they may have to divert a patient to another hospital?
Should Canada build hospitals every 4 minutes apart such that this type of thing could be avoided in the future, I mean, 2 hospitals-8 minutes apart seems like an awfully long distance? What do you think?

BTW, There was an inquiry and the hospital and its "Critical Bypass Procedures" were reviewed and recommendations were put forth. I have the link to it if you would like to look at it.

Seems you do get the point - there is always more to the story - just like the story Beriut attempted to use. Where is your criticism for his use of a horror story. Oh wait its about the American medicial system - so its acceptable for you - is that it?

I could go on, but who cares really? The bottom-line is I-like Beirut, like the system we have, and I don't nor will ever envy yours. You can call it a Horror, Socialist, Cuban, even the living embodiment of Lenin's grand plan, however, it doesn't seem to stop your elderly citizens from buying prescription drugs here, nor does it disway Canadian tax payers from subsidizing Americans, whenever your system can't provide something as simple as flu-shots(LOL) to you or your grandparents/children(as an example). Should I find that revolting, criminal, wrong? No, because I don't. I don't have any problems with helping you or any other American be it a grandparent or child, even if the Canadian tax payers have to take a hit. But thats the difference between seeing health care as a responsibility and not something that can be traded on the stock market the way somebody like Gawain does. I guess this just another example of, "just how sick a government-run health care system can get."

And it seems that your citizens must come down to get treatment in a timely fashion from your country. Shall we continue for the tit for tat - because frankly I am game - since you Canadians claim your system is better - however you and others fail to realize that Americans pay taxes for multiple programs that are controlled by the Government in the exact same manner as your Medicial system.


While the system in the United States has its inherient flaws - its our system to either correct or live with - just like your system in Canada is for you to live with or change if it no longer meets your needs.

When outsiders complain that the United States does not have adequate health care - they neglect to mention all of the totally free care that is available nor do they mention the fact that there is two Federal Programs that are designed to care for the poor and the elderly. It seems you are just as guilty of that as the rest of our Canadian Brothers to the north.

Yea get real - don't complain or comment on the American system until yours is fixed and adequate care is given to all your citizens. I guess its easier for you to notice our problems then it is to fix your own.

[Beirut]

Look, as repugnant as you might find capitalism Beirut...

I'm a die hard capitalist. I work very hard for my money and I want to keep it. But I understand that I have social responsibilities that I must help fund. And if this included funding a methadone clinic, so be it. Why on Earth would I not shell out a little extra on my taxes to help a fellow Canadian get off heroin? Being a citizen is not merely a right, it is a responsibility.

Regardless of the results of the exam, you're perfectly healthy and nothing changes as a result of you having it, other than the doctor having performed another procedure, and some lab techs making a few extra bucks. Who gets hurt?

I would think that if the system is properly run, this sort of behaviour would be kept to a "tolerable' minimum.

Without knowledge of relative cost, it's impossible as a consumer to make an informed decision about whether you want a medical procedure or not.

Well, for my part, I would rather leave the decision up to my doctor rather than my accountant. My accountant only has a CPR badge from the Boy Scouts.

If you're one of these 'do whatever it takes, I want to live as long as I possibly can' types, that's fine. I'm not, and I shouldn't have to pay out of my pocket for you to be. I should have to pay for your basic essential care, if you can't afford to, but I shouldn't be on the hook to give you any experimental procedure or test your doctor can come up with.

And I thank you for that. Perhaps that's a difference in our national cultures.

[Beirut]

Seems you do get the point - there is always more to the story - just like the story Beriut attempted to use. Where is your criticism for his use of a horror story. Oh wait its about the American medicial system - so its acceptable for you - is that it?

My dearest Redleg, would you do me the courtesy of not taking what I (we perhaps) am saying as a slight against Americans.

I am not bashing the US. I am bashing the idea of for-profit health care. Most vociferously and with great anger I would admit, but I am not bashing the US as either a country or a people.

I love y'all Americans! I think you're the second greatest country on Earth. And you make the best damn bourbon!

[Redleg]

My dearest Redleg, would you do me the courtesy of not taking what I (we perhaps) am saying as a slight against Americans.

however you used a horror story and someone trys to criticize my use of the same tactic in the exact same way you did. And I am not making a slight against Canadians at all.

I am not bashing the US. I am bashing the idea of for-profit health care. Most vociferously and with great anger I would admit, but I am not bashing the US as either a country or a people.

And I am not bashing Canadians either - however I am bashing those who criticize the American system without understanding the amount of Taxes I pay to insure free care is provided to the disadvantage and the elderly - to include giving a portion of my property taxes going to the county hosiptal to insure that it can operate so it can care for those that need the care and can not pay for it.

I love y'all Americans! I think you're the second greatest country on Earth. And you make the best damn bourbon!

And I love going up into Canada - you have some of the next best nature to see. You got to be jealous that we got the Grand Canyon and Yellowstone.

[Beirut]

however you used a horror story and someone trys to criticize my use of the same tactic in the exact same way you did.

Then they shouldn't have. Fair's fair.

And I am not bashing Canadians either - however I am bashing those who criticize the American system without understanding the amount of Taxes I pay to insure free care is provided to the disadvantage and the elderly - to include giving a portion of my property taxes going to the county hosiptal to insure that it can operate so it can care for those that need the care and can not pay for it.

I don't think anyone can question what you pay in taxes. Doubtlessly it is too much. It is the very concept of for-profit health care that is the problem, not those are bound to it nor those who subsidize what free health care there is.

And I love going up into Canada - you have some of the next best nature to see. You got to be jealous that we got the Grand Canyon and Yellowstone.

Wait a second... I said I loved y'all Americans but you only said you love Canada, not Canadians. Thinking about a wee bit 'o libensraum are we?

[KukriKhan]

So now that we have the second war of 1812 almost in a cease-fire, I wonder what kind of health care delivery systems there are in eastern Europe, for example, or India, or Africa.

Is the US the only market-driven (some would say: insurance-company-driven) healthcare delivery system?

And, a second question: are doctors and nurses held in very high esteem elsewhere? Are they 'rich'? Or just seen as public servants?

[Krypta]

Well, I think Beirut was actually reacting to Gawain referring to the Canadian system as "woeful", when in fact Canada or our health care system has have nothing to do with this thread. Beirut reacts, you(Redleg) then jump in on him, warning him, "Careful now - this little rant is just that. I can quote horror stories of the Canadian Socialized Medicine that equal and exceed the ones that you just mentioned." As well as, "Now should I go into the horror stories about the Canadian System that I have heard - or is it fair to say each system has its problems and shortfalls." Instead of leaving it there as your implying that you are gonna do, you ran off, got yourself an article and posted it as an "instance". Beirut didn't even repond until after you had posted your "instance". Which is kinda funny, because in(Beirut's) subsequent post after your "instance", post he admits Canada's failings and points out that he sees(and I'm paraphrasing) that he just has a problem with the philoshophy of health care being something other then a right. He doesn't even mention the States, nor does he go off and provoke the conversation further by "tit for tat'ing" and getting a counter article. I guess, Beirut must be talking about you, so you run off and get another article and state, "and you dare call the American system as worse. Laughable and sad at the same time." And have then gaul to say, "...and you don't see me ranting on how your government decides to care for its people no matter how much I disagree with it."

From where I'm sitting, you are the only one in here(other then Gawain) that is trying to turn this into a thread where you get to pump your chest. I mean the poor guy even says, "I'm not after you or even the US, I am simply against the patient's ability to pay having any bearing whatsoever as far as health care is concerned. Regardless of the country." I think that pretty much indicates his clear intent right there. Its only you that seems to think that there is some sort slight going against the States and pursues the thread in such a fashion. However, from the title alone, you really didn't think this thread would be some harmonious discussion on how great the United States is, did you ? You can't have a title like "The US Health Care System Not as Heartless as Some Would Have You Believe.", on this board and not have somebody have something bad to say.(Which is pretty sad btw). Give me a break, this sucker was doomed from the "git go".

Moreover, I don't think you are gonna foster a good debate by calling a reponse a rant, stating that you would never do the same, ridiculing that person and then finally responding to that person in the same way that you said you wouldn't. Sorry, after that, you are fair game.

Beriut made the first horror story comment - and you now get upset because I tit for tat for him. Do you understand the point I am making - that most medical systems have flaws in providing care for people - or did I strike the emotional cord that I was going for by doing what I did. Because that is exactly the same type of arguement that Beruit used. However I don't see you attempting to critize Beriut for using that exact same method first..

Why would I critise the guy, I agree with him ?

Seems you do get the point - there is always more to the story - just like the story Beriut attempted to use. Where is your criticism for his use of a horror story. Oh wait its about the American medicial system - so its acceptable for you - is that it?

Please, I know all discussions involving the States usually turn into some ugly mess here back, some warranted, some not. But you will never find me apart of that type discussion. So the poor American victim guilt trip isn't going to work.

And it seems that your citizens must come down to get treatment in a timely fashion from your country. Shall we continue for the tit for tat - because frankly I am game - since you Canadians claim your system is better - however you and others fail to realize that Americans pay taxes for multiple programs that are controlled by the Government in the exact same manner as your Medicial system.

Do really want to? What do you think that will achieve Redleg? Your not gonna change my mind, nor do I think that I'm gonna change yours, nor do I care to for that matter.

While the system in the United States has its inherient flaws - its our system to either correct or live with - just like your system in Canada is for you to live with or change if it no longer meets your needs.

It has always met my needs.

When outsiders complain that the United States does not have adequate health care - they neglect to mention all of the totally free care that is available nor do they mention the fact that there is two Federal Programs that are designed to care for the poor and the elderly. It seems you are just as guilty of that as the rest of our Canadian Brothers to the north.

And I'm guilty of ....?

Yea get real - don't complain or comment on the American system until yours is fixed and adequate care is given to all your citizens. I guess its easier for you to notice our problems then it is to fix your own.

Your the only one complaining and also the only one pointing the finger. Frankly, I don't care what kind of system you have, socialized or profitized. It doesn't matter to me what kind of problems you have, I don't live in the States , so it isn't of my concern.

[Redleg]

So now that we have the second war of 1812 almost in a cease-fire,

Hell it wasn't the second war of 1812 - it was just a minor border violation by the Canadians -

Wait a second... I said I loved y'all Americans but you only said you love Canada, not Canadians. Thinking about a wee bit 'o libensraum are we?

Hell a word I got to look up - and people say you can't learn anything in an internet discussion.

Well since I don't know what that word means - going to have to go with the old - nationalistic saying. Canada and its citizens equal Canada to me. However I don't visit Canada for its people - to much like us Americans to be different - but I do love some of your nature parks and protected areas. Almost as beautiful as the Snake River Valley, The Grand Tetons, and Yellowstone in Eastern Idaho and Wyoming. Which is where I am going in about a month - beating all those tourists that are only visiting for a vacation - I go out and appreciate the natural beauty of the area.

By the way since my son is now 12, we are going to attempt to hike into the Eastern part of the park to see if we can see some of the transplanted Canadian Wolves.

Another wonderful gift from Canada.

[Redleg]

Your the only one complaining and also the only one pointing the finger. Frankly, I don't care what kind of system you have, socialized or profitized. It doesn't matter to me what kind of problems you have, I don't live in the States , so it isn't of my concern.

And your not pumping your chest - how wonderful of you. Could of missed it with your two responses.

Yeah get real. Your just as guilty as I.

[Beirut]

Hell it wasn't the second war of 1812 - it was just a minor border violation by the Canadians -

Minor border violation my tuckus.

Allow me to retort...

[Don Corleone]

God, is everyone on auto-kill today?

Beirut, Redleg meant the fracas in this thread was a minor border crossing, not the war itself (I think that's what's got you issuing such in-depth retorts). He didn't mean the War of 1812 was a minor border crossing....

Redleg, leibenstraum.... 'living room', or as we would say it, breathing room. It was the justification the Nazis used for entering Austria & Czechloslovakia... they just needed a little breathing room...

Btw, Beirut, if you ever find your body can't take the physcial rigors of lumberjacking anymore, I think you've got a hell of a career ahead of you as a police sketch artist... I saw that guy in the park offering candy to small children the other day... simply amazing.

[Beirut]

Hee-hee. I knew what he meant. I was just having some fun.

Besides, I'm never on auto-kill. But I do use the cruise control in my brain quite often. I set it at 10mph and just slush on down the intellectual highway.

Putt-putt-putt-putt-putt-putt........................

[Don Corleone]

Hey, cut that putt...putt...put... out!

You're gonna freak Ironside and the rest of the Swedes out. They're gonna think you're Big Potato, here to punish them.