Well its finally done - Holocaust Memorial
Holocaust Memorial
Im very disapointed that this was ever even considered.
A) It only honors the Jewish victims of the holocaust - typical.
B) Its ugly as hell. There were so many good designs out there for a memorial with dignity. This, in my opinion, is just a bunch of concrete blocks scattered around in no particular order.
I guess since im not a German citizen anymore i dont have a place to say anything, but it should have never been created in this manner.
Re: Well its finally done - Holocaust Memorial
I think the gesture is a good one, unlike Japan that just (with US help) pretend they never did anything wrong.
The memorial itself seems rather ugly I'm afraid, but who am I to judge. I predict a lot of spray-painted swasticas on those blocks.
Why does the memorial only relate to the jews? What about gypsies, homosexuals, handicapped, resistance fighters, communists (in no particular order)?
Nope - no sig what so ever.
Re: Well its finally done - Holocaust Memorial
Some opinions from a "local" (i.e. German citizen):
- It was about time that we have a major memorial for the Holocaust in Berlin, and IMO the location (right next to the Reichstag and the Brandenburger Tor) is well chosen
- I am not quite happy with the design they went for - however, I think I will have to actually walk through it to have a final opinion
- It is an absolute shame and inexcusable that this memorial does not relate to all the people that had to die in Nazi concentration camps The whole discussion about this issue made me feel really embarrassed - how is it possible that the question about who we commemorate and who we do not even arises?
Those swastikas wouldn't last long - the blocks have been specially coated, so any spray-paintings should be easily removable.Originally Posted by Magraev
Of course this special coating had been supplied by the chemical company Degussa which led to another disgraceful discussion as the name "Degussa" is closely linked to Cyclon B which was used to gas jews in concentration camps.
The good thing about the memorial being finally finished is that all the ugly discussions and the quarreling about it will now (hopefully) come to an end
Re: Well its finally done - Holocaust Memorial
I thought the whole point of it being 'plain' was so it didn't just focus on the Jewish victims of the Holocaust.
By the way, does the phrase 'Holocaust' just include the systematic murder of the Jews or all of the Nazis' 'undesirables' ?
Look what these bastards have done to Wales. They've taken our coal, our water, our steel. They buy our homes and live in them for a fortnight every year. What have they given us? Absolutely nothing. We've been exploited, raped, controlled and punished by the English — and that's who you are playing this afternoon Phil Bennett's pre 1977 Rugby match speech
Re: Well its finally done - Holocaust Memorial
I like it, it is hostile and calm at the same time.
Re: Well its finally done - Holocaust Memorial
wiki
The Holocaust was Nazi Germany's systematic genocide (ethnic cleansing) of various ethnic, religious, national, and secular groups
robotica erotica
Re: Well its finally done - Holocaust Memorial
You should have been here in Canada reading the papers the last week or so. For every story about VE-day on page three there were multiple stories, with big colour pictures, usually front page, about the ending of the Holocaust.
It was like listening to Kent Brockman do the news.
Two old ladies whose second cousins were killed in the Holocaust put flowers outside the camp in Poland. World leaders attended and fifty-thousand news truck showed up to record the event. A national day or morning was declared for the ladies and a new planet was recently named in honour of the victims. On a related topic, WWII ended on this day, fifty milion killed, blah-blah-blah. Over to you Krusty!"
Now pardon me for being flippant with all that, or don't, but the way I see it the Holocaust happened during WWII. WWII did not happen during the Holocaust. But here in Canada the focus was very strong on the Holocaust being the center event of the war, to the point that it overshadows the war. They even made a point of showing soldiers putting flowers at the graves of Jewish victims. That's all fine and dandy, but what about the other 44,000,000 who died? They are being ignored.
Unto each good man a good dog
Re: Well its finally done - Holocaust Memorial
I would rather say that a certain 6 million are exploited.
Re: Well its finally done - Holocaust Memorial
What i want to know is how much this "archetect" got paid. It looks like he procrastinated until the day before it was due, then got drunk, then remembered at 4 am!
I can appreciate modern art well enough but i dont understand this at all. In reality its seems like a rather sad joke.
To the Jews: "Uh yea.. well.. umm.. we're really sorry so weve put up bunch of concrete slabs in your honor!"
To the other victims: "Yea well.. you dont exist, sorry."
What will the aliens think when they come here.. they will see Notre Dame and then see this.. Theyll think weve gone back into the dark ages.
But im not a German anymore or a Jew, so just my humble opinion.
Re: Well its finally done - Holocaust Memorial
I agree with Panzer, it looks terrible. Why didn't they just make a bronze statue?
Also it was 10 million people that died in the holocust. But people only remember the 6 million jews.
Re: Well its finally done - Holocaust Memorial
Ya, well, business is business.
Unto each good man a good dog
Re: Well its finally done - Holocaust Memorial
An ugly memorial to remember a period of time that was extremely ugly. That was what I thought immediately and I can see the logic there.
Re: Well its finally done - Holocaust Memorial
As an artist i say that my personal subjective opinion is that the memorial is ugly as hell. But before i judge i would like some information about who financed it. If it really ''honours'' only jewish people. And if yes why other victims are ommited.
I would also like to know (as devils most faithfull advocate) if it will ever be a memorial for palaistenians who had their houses brought down and kids shot cause they were throwing stones at tanks and armed to the teeth soldiers.
μηνιν αειδε θεα Πηληιαδεω Αχιληοs ουλομενην
Re: Well its finally done - Holocaust Memorial
Who would build it?I would also like to know (as devils most faithfull advocate) if it will ever be a memorial for palaistenians who had their houses brought down and kids shot cause they were throwing stones at tanks and armed to the teeth soldiers.
If someone tried, they would be accused of supporting terrorism and being anti-semitic.
.jpg "Meneldil's Avatar")
Re : Well its finally done - Holocaust Memorial
Heh, why do people always bring in a fact (Palestinian vs Jews) that is totally out of topic ?
Well, yes, it's ugly, and yes, it's sad because it's only for jews people, but as many other memorials of that kind, I'm fairly sure it has been funded by jewish people (ie. they don't really care about the others).
I don't see the gipsy diaspora or the slav diaspora giving money to build such an awful memorial.
From the guy who designed it, "it was built that way so people would feel oppressed".
Re: Well its finally done - Holocaust Memorial
I would also like to know (as devils most faithfull advocate) if it will ever be a memorial for palaistenians who had their houses brought down and kids shot cause they were throwing stones at tanks and armed to the teeth soldiers.
Why would the Palastinians want such an ugly memorial?
Re: Well its finally done - Holocaust Memorial
I actually quite like it. I think it is moving, not over the top and also looks very calming. As others have stated it is a shame it only covers the Jewish dead, but still, they deserve to be remembered more than most, I feel, for not only what they went through but what they symbolised and what the act of trying to wipe them out did. If we remember how horrible it was when it was tried, we not only - hopefully - won't try it again in terms of Jews, but all races as well.
GARCIN: I "dreamt," you say. It was no dream. When I chose the hardest path, I made my choice deliberately. A man is what he wills himself to be.
INEZ: Prove it. Prove it was no dream. It's what one does, and nothing else, that shows the stuff one's made of.
GARCIN: I died too soon. I wasn't allowed time to - to do my deeds.
INEZ: One always dies too soon - or too late. And yet one's whole life is complete at that moment, with a line drawn neatly under it, ready for the summing up. You are - your life, and nothing else.
Jean Paul Sartre - No Exit 1944
Re: Well its finally done - Holocaust Memorial
You do of course realise that other ethnic groups where attempted to wiped out some in larger numbers (if you consider Slavs and Russians as an ethnic group) and some in larger proportions (homosexuals, gypsies).
So by only focusing on the Jews it is a racist monument. It implies that only Jews are worthy of remembering. Not a good call considering it was racism/hatred of differences that started the whole thing.
Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
Pape for global overlord!!
Re: Well its finally done - Holocaust Memorial
I understand that Pape, but I do not think that was intended when they made it. They did not want to be disrespectful, they merely wanted to try and pay their dues to their past. It is very twisted if you think that this monument is helping to create racism.
GARCIN: I "dreamt," you say. It was no dream. When I chose the hardest path, I made my choice deliberately. A man is what he wills himself to be.
INEZ: Prove it. Prove it was no dream. It's what one does, and nothing else, that shows the stuff one's made of.
GARCIN: I died too soon. I wasn't allowed time to - to do my deeds.
INEZ: One always dies too soon - or too late. And yet one's whole life is complete at that moment, with a line drawn neatly under it, ready for the summing up. You are - your life, and nothing else.
Jean Paul Sartre - No Exit 1944
Re: Well its finally done - Holocaust Memorial
IMDHO
By selectively only seeing one set of suffering and ignoring those in the same place, time and circumstance because they belong to a different group is prejudice.
To then act on that prejudice it is then racism.
Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
Pape for global overlord!!
Re: Well its finally done - Holocaust Memorial
Why must everytime a thing like this happens the left of the forum acuse jews of being racist???
There are memorials out there that only cover american war dead from WW2, Is that memorial racist????
But yes, I wish people would shut up about the holocaust.
Maybe a memorial day every 5 years if it must, or as I think best, combine it in with passover, where the egytian attempted genocide is featured.
Viva La Rasa!!!
Re: Well its finally done - Holocaust Memorial
oh, to be on topic, I think the memorial is horrific and should be taken down or rather never built.
Viva La Rasa!!!
Re: Well its finally done - Holocaust Memorial
A bunch of concrete slabs are not a fitting memorial in the twentieth century.
Although in 1000 years the historians will be stumped.
"Why would such an advanced culture waste so much space with slabs of rock?"
Re: Well its finally done - Holocaust Memorial
Maybe thats what they were thinking when stonghenge was built.
Viva La Rasa!!!
Re: Well its finally done - Holocaust Memorial
If we keep building memorials for everyone who has died (graveyards, war memorials, etc)the world will become a monument to death and become uninhabitable.
Re: Well its finally done - Holocaust Memorial
Do you live in Berlin?
Holocaust Memorial
Im very disapointed that this was ever even considered.
A) It only honors the Jewish victims of the holocaust - typical.
B) Its ugly as hell. There were so many good designs out there for a memorial with dignity. This, in my opinion, is just a bunch of concrete blocks scattered around in no particular order.
I guess since im not a German citizen anymore i dont have a place to say anything, but it should have never been created in this manner.
If you do, you must know there are, by now, probably more monuments/km² in Berlin's city core than there are office buildings, because there is a monument for every victim group there is in WWII. The next one coming up is for the murdered Roma and brethren.
So don't talk as if there aren't any monuments for other victim groups as well. This is the monument for the murdered jewish people, and there are many more for others.
And personally, I find it has some air of simplicity that invites to quiet contemplation on the subject of the Holocaust -- especially concerning the monument contains no writings etc.
~Wiz
"It ain't where you're from / it's where you're at."
Eric B. & Rakim, I Know You Got Soul
Re: Well its finally done - Holocaust Memorial
Ignored? What are you talking about? The Dutch have just had a whole week in which they commemorated the soldiers who died for our freedom. My hometown celebrated 'their Canadians' -- the actual guys who liberated us, most of them very old by now. And if you ask them if there is one thing about that war that they regret, they say it's that they didn't screw Jerry faster so they could have closed some of those camps earlier and saved some more lives. Some of their comrades drank themselves to death within months after the war for merely having seen the inside of the camps.
Biy, isn't it nice how everyone envies the Jews their dead these days? The Gypsies, the gays, the Palestinians, even the soldiers who fought for Hitler, everyone wants a piece of the cake.
"Hey, move over Jew, you think you're special?"
The real issue here is - and the Bundestag was on the mark when it recognised this in its decision to establish the monument - the Nazi attempt to wipe an entire people and religion off the face of the earth for no other reason than the fact that they existed. That, my friends, is the reason why this memorial was built. Dead victims are dead victims - the fact that they had different relegions or nationalities doesn't make them any less dead.
But there are crimes and then there are crimes, and the Holocaust, carried out with full industrial and administrative rigour, took the biscuit. The victims don't stand out, the crime does.
The Germans should have followed through on the original plan to make this a monument against the crime, a Mahnmal to point out the perpetrators. They didn't have the balls for that. Whom to include, and whom to leave out -- now that would have been a lively discussion. This monument means nothing to me, I will never visit it.
The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott
Re: Well its finally done - Holocaust Memorial
But that's exactly the issue - after the plans for this memorial (that was only dedicated to one group) passed, of course other groups complained that there seemed to be victims worth commemorating and some victims that were less "interesting".
The consequence was that individual memorials for the individual victim groups were planned and built.
What a great idea. In commemorating the victims we follow the Nazis' idea of categorizing them ([sarcasm]perhaps we should even have marked the memorials with the "appropriate" colors [/sarcasm]) instead of building one memorial for all victims.
Re: Well its finally done - Holocaust Memorial
Oh jeez... How many are there, that you know of?
The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott
Re: Well its finally done - Holocaust Memorial
Palestinians ARE semitic.
Anyways I don't think it's bad that made a memorial however ugly, but why is it limited to jews. This really pisses me off. There was so many people in death camps from every possible ethnic origin. I beleave Auschwitz had German(not gay, not crippled, probably political prisoners), Albanians, Greeks, Russians, Pols, Checks, Romanians, Americans, Canadians(yes you heard it!). All of who were persecuted for their political religious beliefs or simply because they were slav or jewish. So why don't they expand it to include all these people?
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