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Thread: What's this got to do with the Pope?

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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default What's this got to do with the Pope?

    I remember patrons blaming the last Pope for single-handedly causing the spread of Aids in Africa. This should be a good antidote for them

    New York Times

    May 11, 2005

    AIDS Now Compels Africa to Challenge Widows' 'Cleansing'

    By SHARON LaFRANIERE
    MCHINJI, Malawi - In the hours after James Mbewe was laid to rest three years ago, in an unmarked grave not far from here, his 23-year-old wife, Fanny, neither mourned him nor accepted visits from sympathizers. Instead, she hid in his sister's hut, hoping that the rest of her in-laws would not find her.

    But they hunted her down, she said, and insisted that if she refused to exorcise her dead husband's spirit, she would be blamed every time a villager died. So she put her two small children to bed and then forced herself to have sex with James's cousin.

    "I cried, remembering my husband," she said. "When he was finished, I went outside and washed myself because I was very afraid. I was so worried I would contract AIDS and die and leave my children to suffer."

    Here and in a number of nearby nations including Zambia and Kenya, a husband's funeral has long concluded with a final ritual: sex between the widow and one of her husband's relatives, to break the bond with his spirit and, it is said, save her and the rest of the village from insanity or disease. Widows have long tolerated it, and traditional leaders have endorsed it, as an unchallenged tradition of rural African life.

    Now AIDS is changing that. Political and tribal leaders are starting to speak out publicly against so-called sexual cleansing, condemning it as one reason H.I.V. has spread to 25 million sub-Saharan Africans, killing 2.3 million last year alone. They are being prodded by leaders of the region's fledging women's rights movement, who contend that lack of control over their sex lives is a major reason 6 in 10 of those infected in sub-Saharan Africa are women.

    But change is coming slowly, village by village, hut by hut. In a region where belief in witchcraft is widespread and many women are taught from childhood not to challenge tribal leaders or the prerogatives of men, the fear of flouting tradition often outweighs even the fear of AIDS.

    "It is very difficult to end something that was done for so long," said Monica Nsofu, a nurse and AIDS organizer in the Monze district in southern Zambia, about 200 miles south of the capital, Lusaka. "We learned this when we were born. People ask, Why should we change?"

    In Zambia, where one out of five adults is now infected with the virus, the National AIDS Council reported in 2000 that this practice was very common. Since then, President Levy Mwanawasa has declared that forcing new widows into sex or marriage with their husband's relatives should be discouraged, and the nation's tribal chiefs have decided not to enforce either tradition, their spokesman said.

    Still, a recent survey by Women and Law in Southern Africa found that in at least one-third of the country's provinces, sexual "cleansing" of widows persists, said Joyce MacMillan, who heads the organization's Zambian chapter. In some areas, the practice extends to men.

    Some Defy the Risk

    Even some Zambian volunteers who work to curb the spread of AIDS are reluctant to disavow the tradition. Paulina Bubala, a leader of a group of H.I.V.-positive residents near Monze, counsels schoolchildren on the dangers of AIDS. But in an interview, she said she was ambivalent about whether new widows should purify themselves by having sex with male relatives.

    Her husband died of what appeared to be AIDS-related symptoms in 1996. Soon after the funeral, both Ms. Bubala and her husband's second wife covered themselves in mud for three days. Then they each bathed, stripped naked with their dead husband's nephew and rubbed their bodies against his.

    Weeks later, she said, the village headman told them this cleansing ritual would not suffice. Even the stools they sat on would be considered unclean, he warned, unless they had sex with the nephew.

    "We felt humiliated," Ms. Bubala said, "but there was nothing we could do to resist, because we wanted to be clean in the land of the headman."

    The nephew died last year. Ms. Bubala said the cause was hunger, not AIDS. Her husband's second wife now suffers symptoms of AIDS and rarely leaves her hut. Ms. Bubala herself discovered she was infected in 2000.

    But even the risk of disease does not dent Ms. Bubala's belief in the need for the ritual's protective powers. "There is no way we are going to stop this practice," she said, "because we have seen a lot of men and women who have gone mad" after spouses died.

    Ms. Nsofu, the nurse and AIDS organizer, argues that it is less important to convince women like Ms. Bubala than the headmen and tribal leaders who are the custodians of tradition and gatekeepers to change.

    "We are telling them, 'If you continue this practice, you won't have any people left in your village,' " she said. She cites people, like herself, who have refused to be cleansed and yet seem perfectly sane. Sixteen years after her husband died, she argues, "I am still me." Ms. Nsofu said she suggested to tribal leaders that sexual cleansing most likely sprang not from fears about the vengeance of spirits, but from the lust of men who coveted their relatives' wives. She proposes substituting other rituals to protect against dead spirits, like chanting and jumping back and forth over the grave or over a cow.

    Headman Is a Firm Believer

    Like their counterparts in Zambia, Malawi's health authorities have spoken out against forcing widows into sex or marriage. But in the village of Ndanga, about 90 minutes from the nation's largest city, Blantyre, many remain unconvinced.

    Evance Joseph Fundi, Ndanga's 40-year-old headman, is courteous, quiet-spoken and a firm believer in upholding the tradition. While some widows sleep with male relatives, he said, others ask him to summon one of the several appointed village cleansers. In the native language of Chewa, those men are known as fisis or hyenas because they are supposed to operate in stealth and at night.

    Mr. Fundi said one of them died recently, probably of AIDS. Still, he said with a charming smile, "We can not abandon this because it has been for generations."

    Since 1953, Amos Machika Schisoni has served as the principal village cleanser. He is uncertain of his age and it is not easily guessed at. His hair is grizzled but his arms are sinewy and his legs muscled. His hut of mud bricks, set about 50 yards from a graveyard, is even more isolated than most in a village of far-flung huts separated by towering weeds and linked by dirt paths.

    What Tradition Dictates

    He and the headman like to joke about the sexual demands placed upon a cleanser like Mr. Schisoni, who already has three wives. He said tradition dictates that he sleep with the widow, then with each of his own wives, and then again with the widow, all in one night. Mr. Schisoni said that the previous headman chose him for his sexual prowess after he had impregnated three wives in quick succession.

    Now, Mr. Schisoni, said he continues his role out of duty more than pleasure. Uncleansed widows suffer swollen limbs and are not free to remarry, he said. "If we don't do it, the widow will develop the swelling syndrome, get diarrhea and die and her children will get sick and die," he said, sitting under an awning of drying tobacco leaves. "The women who do this do not die."

    His wives support his work, he said, because they like the income: a chicken for each cleansing session. He insisted that he cannot wear a condom because "this will provoke some other unknown spirit." He is equally adamant in refusing an H.I.V. test. "I have never done it and I don't intend to do it," he said.

    To protect himself, he said, he avoids widows who are clearly quite sick . Told that even widows who look perfectly healthy can transmit the virus, Mr. Schisoni shook his head. "I don't believe this," he said. At the traditional family council after James Mbewe was killed in a truck accident in August 2002, Fanny Mbewe's mother and brothers objected to a cleanser, saying the risk of AIDS was too great. But Ms. Mbewe's in-laws insisted, she said. If a villager so much as dreamed of her husband, they told her, the family would be blamed for allowing his spirit to haunt their community on the Malawi-Zambia border.

    Her husband's cousin, to whom she refers only as Loimbani, showed up at her hut at 9 o'clock at night after the burial.

    "I was hiding my private parts," she said in an interview in the office of Women's Voice, a Malawian human rights group. "You want to have a liking for a man to have sex, not to have someone force you. But I had no choice, knowing the whole village was against me."

    Loimbani, she said, was blasé. "He said: 'Why are you running away? You know this is our culture. If I want, I could even make you my second wife."

    He did not. He left her only with the fear that she will die of the virus and that her children, now 8 and 10, will become orphans. She said she is too fearful to take an H.I.V. test.

    "I wish such things would change," she said.
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's this got to do with the Pope?




    Does that answer your question

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    Scruffy Looking Nerf Herder Member Steppe Merc's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's this got to do with the Pope?

    I don't see your pictures, Frag.

    But this is really messed up, and is why I did not agree with blaming the Pope for all the deaths in Africa caused by HIV. And it's kind of pathetic a government has to advise the tribal leaders, and can't actually tell them to stop doing this.

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    Ambiguous Member Byzantine Prince's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's this got to do with the Pope?

    The real problem is that these people don't exactly get wiped out. They don't die without having kids with the virus. They have sex a lot in Africa so it's very hard for the population not be grwoing in an insane rate. Hell if AIDS can't control it then what will!?!?

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    Default Re: What's this got to do with the Pope?

    They have sex a lot in Africa...

    Im considering making that part of my sig..


    This thread will most likely die with only these posts in it as all those who were so critical of JP will simply ignore it, as is so often the case.

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    Feeding the Peanut Gallery Senior Member Redleg's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's this got to do with the Pope?

    Quote Originally Posted by Byzantine Prince
    The real problem is that these people don't exactly get wiped out. They don't die without having kids with the virus. They have sex a lot in Africa so it's very hard for the population not be grwoing in an insane rate. Hell if AIDS can't control it then what will!?!?
    So much wrong with this statement - So your now advocating AIDS as a method of population control. And some are scared of the far right on this board. I suggest with ideological views like this - some should be more scared of the socialist paradise you seem to advocate.

    Lets see now - lets shoot workers who do not perform to the government's work quota and use AIDS as a method of population control.

    Yep a real winner is amongst us in this forum.
    O well, seems like 'some' people decide to ruin a perfectly valid threat. Nice going guys... doc bean

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    Dyslexic agnostic insomniac Senior Member Goofball's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's this got to do with the Pope?

    Quote Originally Posted by AdrianII
    I remember patrons blaming the last Pope for single-handedly causing the spread of Aids in Africa. This should be a good antidote for them
    Hmmm. I haven't gone back reviewed the thread in question, but that seems like a bit of a troll to me Adrian. I don't remember anybody blaming the Pope for "single-handedly" causing the spread of AIDS in Africa.

    The fact is that Catholic dogma, which is more or less dictated by the Pope, forbids the use of condoms. And since the Pope consistently forbade the use of condoms, then there is no question that he was more of a hindrance than a help when it came to preventing the spread of AIDS in Africa (or anywhere, for that matter). Yes, I know the conservative response is "But he preached abstinence, which is the most perfect form of AIDS prevention," but the reality is that it is far easier to convince people to use condoms than it is to convince them not to have sex.
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    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's this got to do with the Pope?

    That's like saying "If you're going to steal, make sure you do it from businesses, not indviduals. Oh, and we shouldn't say stealing is wrong, because then they might get embarrassed and go back to stealing from individuals". I personally believe condoms are fine, but they clearly don't.

    If they truly believe it's wrong, aren't you demanding that they be hypocrites because you don't think human beings can restrain their sexual impulses?
    Last edited by Don Corleone; 05-12-2005 at 01:03.
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    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's this got to do with the Pope?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goofball
    Hmmm. I haven't gone back reviewed the thread in question, but that seems like a bit of a troll to me Adrian. I don't remember anybody blaming the Pope for "single-handedly" causing the spread of AIDS in Africa.

    The fact is that Catholic dogma, which is more or less dictated by the Pope, forbids the use of condoms. And since the Pope consistently forbade the use of condoms, then there is no question that he was more of a hindrance than a help when it came to preventing the spread of AIDS in Africa (or anywhere, for that matter). Yes, I know the conservative response is "But he preached abstinence, which is the most perfect form of AIDS prevention," but the reality is that it is far easier to convince people to use condoms than it is to convince them not to have sex.

    i specifically remember some sayign that the pope had their blood on his hands and he actually killed millions
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    Member Senior Member Proletariat's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's this got to do with the Pope?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goofball
    Yes, I know the conservative response is "But he preached abstinence, which is the most perfect form of AIDS prevention," but the reality is that it is far easier to convince people to use condoms than it is to convince them not to have sex.
    Right, because the Pope is here to explain how to take the 'easier' route.



    Why do you presume that on the Pope's agenda there should be medical hygiene? He's here to save souls, not the flesh. I'm not even Catholic, let alone Christian and I can see that.

    You have placed an expectation on the Pope to be 'the greatest guy ever who will fix everything' and he isn't. He's just the head of a Church, here to advocate his faith.
    Last edited by Proletariat; 05-12-2005 at 01:07.

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    Ambiguous Member Byzantine Prince's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's this got to do with the Pope?

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJager
    They have sex a lot in Africa...

    Im considering making that part of my sig..
    I'm still waiting to someone to sig my comment.

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    Things Change Member JAG's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's this got to do with the Pope?

    Adrian, you disappoint me. Just because me and others stated that the pope and catholic curches dogma was responsible for aiding the spread of aids and certainly not doing anything to stop it, we definitely did NOT say that it was the ONLY reason, far from it.

    But just because it is one reason amongst others, it does not mean that it should be accepted, am I to believe Adrian that you therefore think that the Pope's position and the Catholic churches position is acceptable? If not, why post things such as this with the title you have? It makes little sense.
    GARCIN: I "dreamt," you say. It was no dream. When I chose the hardest path, I made my choice deliberately. A man is what he wills himself to be.
    INEZ: Prove it. Prove it was no dream. It's what one does, and nothing else, that shows the stuff one's made of.
    GARCIN: I died too soon. I wasn't allowed time to - to do my deeds.
    INEZ: One always dies too soon - or too late. And yet one's whole life is complete at that moment, with a line drawn neatly under it, ready for the summing up. You are - your life, and nothing else.

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    Member Senior Member Proletariat's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's this got to do with the Pope?

    Quote Originally Posted by JAG
    But just because it is one reason amongst others, it does not mean that it should be accepted, am I to believe Adrian that you therefore think that the Pope's position and the Catholic churches position is acceptable?
    I sure think it is, but you're asking him.

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    Things Change Member JAG's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's this got to do with the Pope?

    Quote Originally Posted by Proletariat
    I sure think it is, but you're asking him.
    Ah good, at least you're an honest Christian and state you have no problems with the all powerful Christ's representatives you worship being responsible for millions of deaths.

    Just don't cry over 3,000 people dieing when planes hit a building in September, or children gunned down by a madman in a school. Because they are crocodile tears.
    GARCIN: I "dreamt," you say. It was no dream. When I chose the hardest path, I made my choice deliberately. A man is what he wills himself to be.
    INEZ: Prove it. Prove it was no dream. It's what one does, and nothing else, that shows the stuff one's made of.
    GARCIN: I died too soon. I wasn't allowed time to - to do my deeds.
    INEZ: One always dies too soon - or too late. And yet one's whole life is complete at that moment, with a line drawn neatly under it, ready for the summing up. You are - your life, and nothing else.

    Jean Paul Sartre - No Exit 1944

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    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's this got to do with the Pope?

    Dude, you gotta lay off the drama.

    1) Proletariat already announced (IN THIS THREAD) she's not a Christian

    2) Al Queda didn't preach that nobody should stop the hijackers (a passive role). They took an active role and actually flew the planes.

    If the priests were over there shooting people for using condoms, you'd have a slam dunk on your hands. But you're really reaching on this one. Sorry man, cause like I said, I have plenty of issues with the Vatican, I just think you're barking up the wrong tree on this one.
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
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    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's this got to do with the Pope?

    By the way, apparently you don't have too many Protestant fundamentalists over in the UK. If you did, you'd recognize they, not you and fellow atheists are the Pope's (and the Catholics') most vitrolic opponents.

    Many many baptists, and I believe all pentecostals, preach that the pope is the anti-Christ and any Catholic is in fact a devil worshiper and a pagan. No shit. When I was still a Catholic, in high school, I went to Kentucky (a poor region of it in the Appalachians, about 800 miles away from where I lived at the time) to build houses for Habitat for Humanity, the local minister said a prayer that we children would turn from our evil ways and finally reject Satan and truly accept Christ, not the false image of him we had.

    Trust me, Christians are not a monolithic, all-supporting group.
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
    Strike for the South

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    Things Change Member JAG's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's this got to do with the Pope?

    1) Proletariat already announced (IN THIS THREAD) she's not a Christian
    Doesn't mute my point.

    And the Catholic church has in effect 'shot' people for attempting to use them, the articles I posted when the pope hismelf died, listed how Catholic bishops and priests in Africa were stating lies about condoms - how they did not stop AIDS and even actively helped spread it. For people, as the article shows, who trust dogma, tradition and spiritual leaders so much, that is pulling the trigger my friend.
    GARCIN: I "dreamt," you say. It was no dream. When I chose the hardest path, I made my choice deliberately. A man is what he wills himself to be.
    INEZ: Prove it. Prove it was no dream. It's what one does, and nothing else, that shows the stuff one's made of.
    GARCIN: I died too soon. I wasn't allowed time to - to do my deeds.
    INEZ: One always dies too soon - or too late. And yet one's whole life is complete at that moment, with a line drawn neatly under it, ready for the summing up. You are - your life, and nothing else.

    Jean Paul Sartre - No Exit 1944

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    Things Change Member JAG's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's this got to do with the Pope?

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone
    By the way, apparently you don't have too many Protestant fundamentalists over in the UK. If you did, you'd recognize they, not you and fellow atheists are the Pope's (and the Catholics') most vitrolic opponents.

    Many many baptists, and I believe all pentecostals, preach that the pope is the anti-Christ and any Catholic is in fact a devil worshiper and a pagan. No shit. When I was still a Catholic, in high school, I went to Kentucky (a poor region of it in the Appalachians, about 800 miles away from where I lived at the time) to build houses for Habitat for Humanity, the local minister said a prayer that we children would turn from our evil ways and finally reject Satan and truly accept Christ, not the false image of him we had.

    Trust me, Christians are not a monolithic, all-supporting group.
    We don't have as many evangelicals and christians, full stop, as you do over there - thankfully. Even if protestants oppose the pope, so what? They certainly seem to not care about his ultra conservative teachings like preaching that condoms lead to AIDS and never to use them, because you yourself, and others here, are huge apologists for it.

    I also find it laughable that you think other christians of a different kind are more anti catholic than atheists hehe, that is a new one.
    GARCIN: I "dreamt," you say. It was no dream. When I chose the hardest path, I made my choice deliberately. A man is what he wills himself to be.
    INEZ: Prove it. Prove it was no dream. It's what one does, and nothing else, that shows the stuff one's made of.
    GARCIN: I died too soon. I wasn't allowed time to - to do my deeds.
    INEZ: One always dies too soon - or too late. And yet one's whole life is complete at that moment, with a line drawn neatly under it, ready for the summing up. You are - your life, and nothing else.

    Jean Paul Sartre - No Exit 1944

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    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's this got to do with the Pope?

    Well, as far as I know, you don't advocate physical violence against 'the church of Lucifer'. Little known fact about the Klan..... they burned as many Catholic Churches as they did synagogues or African Methodist churches. My grandfather got shot in the chest with both barrels of a shotgun (and survived!) for being Irish Catholic. And this was in Boston! In 1932!

    Edit: A fact I wish a lot of Irish-Americans, French-Americans and Italian-Americans would wake up and realize. When they talk about the white race, they ain't talking about you. (Sorry, private side rant. A distressing trend in my mind is the idea that somehow Irish & Italians & French are now welcomed by the Klan. Of course they are, they're desparate for members).
    Last edited by Don Corleone; 05-12-2005 at 04:08.
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
    Strike for the South

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    Things Change Member JAG's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's this got to do with the Pope?

    I do not advocate violence against christians, you are right. I leave my distaste for the religion in words and statements only. If protestants do preach violence against catholics though, it kinda proves a lot of my points about the whole christian religion, protestant, orthodox or catholic...
    GARCIN: I "dreamt," you say. It was no dream. When I chose the hardest path, I made my choice deliberately. A man is what he wills himself to be.
    INEZ: Prove it. Prove it was no dream. It's what one does, and nothing else, that shows the stuff one's made of.
    GARCIN: I died too soon. I wasn't allowed time to - to do my deeds.
    INEZ: One always dies too soon - or too late. And yet one's whole life is complete at that moment, with a line drawn neatly under it, ready for the summing up. You are - your life, and nothing else.

    Jean Paul Sartre - No Exit 1944

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    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's this got to do with the Pope?

    See, chief, that's what I love about you, no matter how much you piss me off sometimes. You're never wrong! Even when you are, you're not! It just proves how right you are in the long run. Stay with that, it'll serve you well in your political career.
    Last edited by Don Corleone; 05-12-2005 at 04:12.
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
    Strike for the South

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    Things Change Member JAG's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's this got to do with the Pope?

    Pft, political career? Nah.

    And we are always right, whatever we choose is for the better and whatever we choose we choose for all. Your completely right at the same time as I am right, isn't that great?
    GARCIN: I "dreamt," you say. It was no dream. When I chose the hardest path, I made my choice deliberately. A man is what he wills himself to be.
    INEZ: Prove it. Prove it was no dream. It's what one does, and nothing else, that shows the stuff one's made of.
    GARCIN: I died too soon. I wasn't allowed time to - to do my deeds.
    INEZ: One always dies too soon - or too late. And yet one's whole life is complete at that moment, with a line drawn neatly under it, ready for the summing up. You are - your life, and nothing else.

    Jean Paul Sartre - No Exit 1944

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    Scruffy Looking Nerf Herder Member Steppe Merc's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's this got to do with the Pope?

    Edit: A fact I wish a lot of Irish-Americans, French-Americans and Italian-Americans would wake up and realize. When they talk about the white race, they ain't talking about you. (Sorry, private side rant. A distressing trend in my mind is the idea that somehow Irish & Italians & French are now welcomed by the Klan. Of course they are, they're desparate for members).
    I agree whole heartedly. And Slavic and Eastern Europeans as well, and of course Jews. I always thinks it's odd that they're called white supremecists, since they're (at least supposed to be) German (which includes Anglo-Saxon, Norse, etc.) supremisists (damn, that's hard to spell...) I guess they're so desperate for recruits, like you said.

    And Jag, the whole point of Adrian's articale was to show that the Pope wasn't soley responsible, and that AIDs would still spread even without his preaching against condoms.

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    If you should stand then who's to guide you?
    If I knew the way I would take you home."
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  24. #24
    Actual Person Member Paul Peru's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's this got to do with the Pope?

    Quote Originally Posted by Proletariat
    Why do you presume that on the Pope's agenda there should be medical hygiene? He's here to save souls, not the flesh. I'm not even Catholic, let alone Christian and I can see that.
    He did on occasion speak out against gratuitous flesh-destroying, though...
    Quote Originally Posted by Proletariat
    You have placed an expectation on the Pope to be 'the greatest guy ever who will fix everything' and he isn't. He's just the head of a Church, here to advocate his faith.
    As long as he's free to do that, it should be OK for others to be free to say that they disagree. And it's not unheard of for the catholic church to change their views to bring them closer to decency and common sense. We just won't see it with the current pope.
    Sono Pazzi Questi Romani
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  25. #25
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's this got to do with the Pope?

    Again, PP, I'm going to pose the same challenge to you that I did to Goofball. Instead of assuming the Pope's just like to screw with people and ruin all their fun (they do this because of a grinch-like mentality), consider for a moment that they actually believe the reasoning they've offered.

    Is your argument that they should be hypocrites and say it's okay because you don't think Africans are capable of controlling their sexual impulses or thinking for themselves? That's a pretty low opinion of humanity.
    Last edited by Don Corleone; 05-12-2005 at 14:07.
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
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    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
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  26. #26
    Actual Person Member Paul Peru's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's this got to do with the Pope?

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone
    Again, PP, I'm going to pose the same challenge to you that I did to Goofball. Instead of assuming the Pope's just like to screw with people and ruin all their fun (they do this because of a grinch-like mentality), consider for a moment that they actually believe the reasoning they've offered.

    Is your argument that they should be hypocrites and say it's okay because you don't think Africans are capable of controlling their sexual impulses or thinking for themselves? That's a pretty low opinion of humanity.
    This will be my final post in this thread, as I'm about to say the N-word, and thus disqualify and discredit myself entirely.
    Here I go:
    I think a lot of Nazis believed in what they were doing. I still think they were wrong, and that bringing them to trial was right.

    As for the sexual impulses of Africans, I'd guess they were about the same as for people on other continents. Culture and tradition may promote promiscuity to a larger extent in some countries. If they abstained from sex, they'd be all right, yes. Most people tend not to though, independent of continent. American youths are very much into extended Clintonesque definitions these days, I hear.

    But if the church had any decency and concern for the suffering of those people they'd say "Be faithful or abstinent, but if you can't then for St. Pete's sake use a condom!!" There are other cases where some evils have been graded as less than others. I can't imagine how using a condom is worse than bringing hiv home to your wife, or equivalent for that matter.
    Sono Pazzi Questi Romani
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  27. #27

    Default Re: What's this got to do with the Pope?

    Doesn't the catholic church teach that sex should only be between a man and his wife?

    If so condeming condoms doesn't encourage the spread of aids.

  28. #28
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's this got to do with the Pope?

    Look, one more time, the Church doesn't view condoms as an AIDS issue. They view it as birth control and that's why they think it's wrong.

    I'll be honest, you secular humanists are really driving forward, emboldened by your successes I suppose. You're now presuming to tell organized religions what they're allowed to consider moral and what they're not. If they don't agree with you, you'll accuse them of genocide for not backing your 'anything that feels good, at any price' attitudes.

    Just do me a favor, before you decide that praying should be illegal, or belief in any form for that matter, give us all a heads up, would you? It can't be that far off, based on where you're at now...
    Last edited by Don Corleone; 05-12-2005 at 15:56.
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
    Strike for the South

  29. #29
    Things Change Member JAG's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's this got to do with the Pope?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steppe Merc
    And Jag, the whole point of Adrian's articale was to show that the Pope wasn't soley responsible, and that AIDs would still spread even without his preaching against condoms.
    Would be good if you actually read my post.
    GARCIN: I "dreamt," you say. It was no dream. When I chose the hardest path, I made my choice deliberately. A man is what he wills himself to be.
    INEZ: Prove it. Prove it was no dream. It's what one does, and nothing else, that shows the stuff one's made of.
    GARCIN: I died too soon. I wasn't allowed time to - to do my deeds.
    INEZ: One always dies too soon - or too late. And yet one's whole life is complete at that moment, with a line drawn neatly under it, ready for the summing up. You are - your life, and nothing else.

    Jean Paul Sartre - No Exit 1944

  30. #30
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's this got to do with the Pope?

    Would be good if you actually read my post.
    Even when we do you claim we are to stupid to understand your points. The Pope is in no way shape manner of form responsible for the spread of aids in Africa.Trying to say so pnly makes you look either silly or hows you have an unrasonable hate for the Pope and Catholics in general. Once more if they listened to him aids would practically dissappear but because they dont its his fault.
    Fighting for Truth , Justice and the American way

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