What's this got to do with the Pope?

[Don Corleone]

He's not talking about crimimals. He's talking about rounding up anybody who's diagnosed as HIV postive and killing them, not out of revenge, or justice, but because it's expedient. Now clearly I don't think he's ever going to get into a position to inflict this viewpoint, but with this metric in mind "all that opposes must be eliminated, regardless the cost", what do you think he's going to do the first time his kid talks back to him?

[JAG]

Simply put - we don't know. All we know is that he is free to choose, at the point he chooses in the situation you mention, all this talk here goes out of the window. He has not experienced any of things he proclaims here, they are merely statements of opinion. When it comes to actively choosing in terms of the situation you describe, his proclamations here do mean nothing.

If however he was to have experienced violence a lot when he was young - not saying he has for one minute - and thought that was therefore the norm, you would expect this experience to effect his decision when he comes to choosing in the situation you describe. Not however statements or opinions held without action and experience.

[Byzantine Prince]

Don't get crazy on me godfather(lol). I mean you do realize that AIDS is transmitted through rape and through birth fluids most of the time I don't see most AIDS victims completely innocent. Also we hav eto save the lives of futre generations. Don't you understand this?

I don't get you? Why do you assume that I act violently toward other people because of my beliefs. What I think is nothing special. Hell you guys down there have laws for executing murderers and that's the only thing that I love about America. Africa is a special case though, because we can barely even feed them nevermind all the deseases. If you stopped the chain of AIDS you would be doing somthing that would hapen eventually anyways. People with AIDS die in about 5 years so are you sure that you can find a cure in 5 year? I doubt it and also don't use the "well they live longer" crap on me. The more they live the more the virus will be spread through rape.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

I still think BP is Jag. But its sort of like Jeykle and Hyde. Jag wouldnt condone violence or killing in almost any circumastance where as BP is a cold blooded killer listening to him . Yet for the most part their like two peas in a pod. Hopefully Jag can teach the young grasshoper to be a bit more peaceful and show him the error of his ways.

[Byzantine Prince]

I still think BP is Jag. But its sort of like Jeykle and Hyde. Jag wouldnt condone violence or killing in almost any circumastance where as BP is a cold blooded killer listening to him . Yet for the most part their like two peas in a pod. Hopefully Jag can teach the young grasshoper to be a bit more peaceful and show him the error of his ways.

We're the same age too.

Me and JAG are very different in terms of criminal law though. The problem with Africa is that there is no other way to prevent AIDS. You can't quarantine the people and you can't make them behave. How else, if you people have a better plan I'de like to hear it. Seriously, I'm not the kind of person who would enjoy killing people because they are undesirable.

[Proletariat]

Unbelieveable. But if I make a comment about Islam being a little out of line these days, I'm the racist.

[JAG]

I still think BP is Jag. But its sort of like Jeykle and Hyde. Jag wouldnt condone violence or killing in almost any circumastance where as BP is a cold blooded killer listening to him . Yet for the most part their like two peas in a pod. Hopefully Jag can teach the young grasshoper to be a bit more peaceful and show him the error of his ways.

lol! Gawain that really made me laugh

I think we have similar beliefs in some things because essentially we both prescribe to an existentialist outlook on existence, it does form a lot of your thoughts on the world. That doesn't mean we are identical though, just because you and Redleg are Christian conservatives, it will form a basis of your opinions which will be like each other, but it does not mean you are identical.

As for the whole criminal justice stuff, it is funny seeing you, Gawain, state how someone needs to come round to my way of thinking, whatever next, you decrying evil capitalism and becoming a fellow comrade?

[JAG]

Unbelieveable. But if I make a comment about Islam being a little out of line these days, I'm the racist.

Not at all, you would be speaking sense, especially if you extrapolated it to all religion. Religion is more than 'a little out of line these days'!

[Proletariat]

So go ahead. Flip out on BP, JAG. -------------------------------------
Where's the outcry? Where's the feigned outrage? You should be in outrage fatigue by now! You're letting me down! Hurry!

[Kanamori]

"Hell you guys down there have laws for executing murderers and that's the only thing that I love about America. Africa is a special case though, because we can barely even feed them nevermind all the deseases. If you stopped the chain of AIDS you would be doing somthing that would hapen eventually anyways. People with AIDS die in about 5 years so are you sure that you can find a cure in 5 year?"

It is purposefully hastening the end of their lives, which is wrong in anycase.

[Byzantine Prince]

The difference is that I prescribe to the Nietzschean existentialism which is more fascist and JAG prescribes to the Sartrian existentialism which is flagrantly Marxist. Not that I don't like communism mind you.

So go ahead. Flip out on BP, JAG. He just said Africans are rapists by nature. Where's the outcry? Where's the feigned outrage? You should be in outrage fatigue by now! You're letting me down! Hurry!

I never said they all were. But if you read the statistics you'll see that that's the greatest spreader of AIDS. Rape that is. Rape of women and children and even infants. Are you telling me these people should be allowed to roam the land?

[Proletariat]

...

[Don Corleone]

I suppose I should make something clear. I'm not saying that I think BP has internal morality issues and problems with his super-ego because I'm trying to score debate points. Trust me, I have other ways of doing crap like that.

But BP, listen to yourself. Because I name my avatar on a chatboard after a movieland gangster, I must understand your position that Africans arbitrarily rape people, that's how they got AIDS, so let's just kill 'em all?

Un-freakin-believable.

There isn't anything I wouldn't do to end AIDS (short of murdering everyone with it) if I really truly believed it would help. The difference between Jag & Tachiazache's views on this versus mine is how are the means of capital best applied. But we share a common desire to help mankind and see it prosper.

I don't recognize any of that in you. I hope Jag's right and you're just pissing in the wind because you haven't had any life experiences or maybe you think it's cool to watch people get upset when you make comments about genocide as a means of disease control. Even if that's all it is, you just think it's all funny, you've got issues. Millions of people die horrible deaths every day because they went to the doctor and got a dirty needle, or their spouse didn't tell them they had been with somebody else, or a host of other innocent reasons. And you're laughing away, saying 'kill em all'.

No empathy=no humanity.

[Byzantine Prince]

This is the power of language. You can argue over semantics till the end of time Proletariat(lol, hillarious with that name). I don't really care. I am not a racist by a long shot. I beleave everyone can excel if in the right environment.

[KukriKhan]

Slow down, mate. You have mail.

[Byzantine Prince]

No empathy=no humanity.

"It is pleasant, when the sea is high and the winds are dashing the waves about, to watch from the shores the struggles of another" - Lucretius.

[JAG]

So go ahead. Flip out on BP, JAG. He just said Africans are rapists by nature. Where's the outcry? Where's the feigned outrage? You should be in outrage fatigue by now! You're letting me down! Hurry!

I apologise for letting you down, we wouldn't want that. Everyone here knows I disagree with BP in the most profound way on this point, but like others on this board - namely Capo - I am quite sick of stating it time and again, what is the point? There is also a number of points in terms of the 'Africans are rapists by nature' which I find wrong and to be honest I cannot be bothered to go over them all as it is patently obvious to everyone of the wrongs of the statement anyway.

[Byzantine Prince]

I made a mistake when I phrased that. I in know way think all Africans are naturally rapists. I meant rapists will rape anything they see if released. I did not specify that it would Africans doing this. I hate it when people misread or misinterpret what I write. Ooh maybe I should put it in 'Small things that get to you very easily' .

[Papewaio]

"It is pleasant, when the sea is high and the winds are dashing the waves about, to watch from the shores the struggles of another" - Lucretius.

=][= IMDHO =][=

Mercy is for the Weak.

Which can be interpreted only the strong can give mercy to the weak.
Mercy is for the Weak from the Strong.

"It is more pleasant, when the sea is high and the winds are dashing the waves about, to watch from the shores the struggles of another and then a Aussie Lifesaver save their lives."

It is most pleasurable to be the lifesaver."

[Gawain of Orkeny]

As for the whole criminal justice stuff, it is funny seeing you, Gawain, state how someone needs to come round to my way of thinking, whatever next, you decrying evil capitalism and becoming a fellow comrade?

It will be a cold day in hell b4 that ever happens

I want him to become a pacifist like yourself. You maybe wrong almost all the time but at least your harmless and have a good heart.

[Byzantine Prince]

Hehe, I have a heart...

I'm harmless to most people too.

[Paul Peru]

In what capacity do you mean? Against genocide? Murder? Other things (like promiscuity) which are against the faith he's here to advocate?

Yes stuff like that, invasion of Iraq etc.
Murder is against his faith.
Infecting someone with HIV is murder, or very nearly morally equivalent.
You can prevent this by not having sex, or by using a condom.
Which is the greater sin? Using a condom or murder?
That's apples to horses of a different colour in my colouring book.
Catholic: "Father, I can prevent a murder by stealing someones gun. Should I do it?"
Priest: "Thou shalt not steal! No further comment."

Oh yeah, it's so sexy and humanist and modern and vogue to trash White Western Christianity.

Thank you! I'll trash Islam, Eastern Christianity, Hinduism, The baby-eating Lord's Ugandan Lunatic Front and anything else that's contrary to my values as soon as I see someone advocating it. I'd trash BP right now, if it hadn't been done already.

[Paul Peru]

Never mind. Isn't it surprising that a thread about some of the worst obscurantism in Africa is turned into yet another debate pro and contra the Pope? I believe this thread demonstrates that some of the Church's critics aren't interested in Africa or Aids at all, only in criticising the Church.

OK, now I've read it.

That's horrible!
It's exactly the same thing as the pope/condom issue, btw. People's faith keep them from doing the rational thing, and they get AIDS. One more set of beliefs causing similar effects just makes it more obvious how principally unsound this religion-business is.
I don't like it one bit.

[Steppe Merc]

So go ahead. Flip out on BP, JAG. -------------------------------------
Where's the outcry? Where's the feigned outrage? You should be in outrage fatigue by now! You're letting me down! Hurry!

Very well. I will do so, as I did in the thread about the cause of Terrorism.

Right, where to begin?
You can't blame people for diseases. BP, you're advocating purging people because they don't fit with your idea of what people should be. What's next, killing elderly because they take up too much food and money without enough contribution? Or killing little people, mentally incompetent, or other undesirables, who are suffering from some sort of undesirable symptom?

beleave everyone can excel if in the right environment.

And what makes you think Africa is such a bad place? I guess it isn't rhe right environment? Because they are lesser than you?
They at least have never advocated the destruction of millions of innocent people. And while some may be racists, they are no more racist in nature than anyone else. Their environment is unfortunate, but they aren't sub human.

Jag, Capo's totally different, man. I don't agree with him a lot, but a lot of times he's not entirely serious, and he never advocating the purging of undesirables. And while he's often extreme, he's a good person, and will likely "mellow out" if you will with age, his views becoming more in line with people with similar morals. We may not agree with him, but he's still a good person, and he never once advocated killing millions of innocents.

I'm with Don on this. Gawain, just to let you know as angry as I was about the whole factors of Terrorism thing, this is far more disturbing to me, and far more disgusting.

BP... I really can't understand you, nor do I want to. Not trying to be insulting here, but what if someone on this thread had AIDs, or their loved one had AIDs? How would they feel when they heard that you want them to die, to protect "innocents"? Who are you to say one group of people is better than another, or that just because someone has AIDs, they will automatically spread it to another? People can live with it, and not spread it if they are responsible.

Besides, you cannot destroy a disease like that. Someone will escape your purge, and possibly spread it. Or another disease will pop up. Should people with flus be killed to? What about those that have meningitis, or mono?

[Proletariat]

Yes stuff like that, invasion of Iraq etc.
Murder is against his faith.
Infecting someone with HIV is murder, or very nearly morally equivalent.
You can prevent this by not having sex, or by using a condom.
Which is the greater sin? Using a condom or murder?
That's apples to horses of a different colour in my colouring book.
Catholic: "Father, I can prevent a murder by stealing someones gun. Should I do it?"
Priest: "Thou shalt not steal! No further comment."

Well, from my understanding of the ten commandments, it's a black and white issue. You're sinning or you're not. Not much room for mitigating circumstances, which does seem pretty obtuse for a justice/moral system.
But I think you are being a slight bit intellectually dishonest if you believe someone at the pearly gates would be denied for stealing a murderer's gun.
Cheating on your wife or womanizing on the other hand...?

I think that's why Jesus revised them down to the Golden Rules.

"Love God."

"Do unto others as you'd have them do to you."

Why God hadn't thought of this during the Old Testament is another of many reasons why I can't take the religon seriously itself, but I still see no real culpability with the Pope.

Thank you! I'll trash Islam, Eastern Christianity, Hinduism, The baby-eating Lord's Ugandan Lunatic Front and anything else that's contrary to my values as soon as I see someone advocating it. I'd trash BP right now, if it hadn't been done already.

Well put.

[Paul Peru]

Well, from my understanding of the ten commandments, it's a black and white issue. You're sinning or you're not. Not much room for mitigating circumstances, which does seem pretty obtuse for a justice/moral system.
But I think you are being a slight bit intellectually dishonest if you believe someone at the pearly gates would be denied for stealing a murderer's gun.
Cheating on your wife or womanizing on the other hand...?

Well the "good thing" about catholicism is you can get forgiveness for almost everything.

Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Promiscuity has not always been a sin. http://libertyunites.tv/blog-1577.html
The seventh commandment only states that other people's wives are off limits. (the tenth tells you to keep away from their asses and manservants, I think)

I think that's why Jesus revised them down to the Golden Rules.

"Love God."

"Do unto others as you'd have them do to you."

I'd certainly have an hiv positive sexual partner use a condom unto me!

[Husar]

I'd certainly have an hiv positive sexual partner use a condom unto me!

I´d certainly have no sex at all if I knew about her HIV-infection, I just can´t trust such a little rubber-thingie to protect me from a highly dangerous virus that I can´t even see with my eyes.

I think the worst thing about HIV are people who infect others on purpose in many different ways, I wouldn´t mind introducing a cruel punishment for these people to make them stop this, because I consider it even worse than shooting someone. Just think about going to a disco and someone sticks a needle through your trousers and disappears, later you hear you´re HIV-positive, just because someone decided to destroy your life and kill you with just a little needle...

I think the africans will either have to practice some abstinence or, as sad as it may sound, the problem will solve itself. If you want to have real love and both partners love eachother, there is still the possibility of testing both for HIV, but from what I know, prostitution and the more modern ways of having sex(one-night stands etc.) seem to be the most likely to spread HIV.