"Kissing Cousins"

[Gawain of Orkeny]

i think he has a point (barring the you part) some people would treat you badly for being gay especially in school, i think he's saying they are the cause of higher suicide rates and depression, i would agree.

And they do it because your fat or short or ugly or tall or any number of other reasons. Neither of you have addressed ny question. If you believed you had the mind of a girl in a mans body that wouldnt deppress you? Lets talk common sense here. Peer pressure or not that sure to have a negative affect on your physcy.

[Byzantine Prince]

Gawain what are you ranting about. Geays are not womans's brains in man's bodies. They just like to have sex with other men. They don't think they are women. Those are transexuals!
And no even they are not that depressed. The reason gays become depressed is that people like you tell them they are not natural and that they are freaks. That why they kill themselves.

[LittleGrizzly]

And they do it because your fat or short or ugly or tall or any number of other reasons.

exactly!!

Neither of you have addressed ny question. If you believed you had the mind of a girl in a mans body that wouldnt deppress you?

not all gays believe their women trapped in mens bodys, theres been both gay and straight people who have believed they were in the wrong gender body.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

And no even they are not that depressed. The reason gays become depressed is that people like you tell them they are not natural and that they are freaks. That why they kill themselves.

You dont think that you would natuarly think your different by being attracted to the same sex when society and all around you are straight? No one has to tell you your different or that this is not the way nature intended . Call me anything you like Im not about to kill myself. Dont go trying to blame me.

[AntiochusIII]

You dont think that you would natuarly think your different by being attracted to the same sex when society and all around you are straight? No one has to tell you your different or that this is not the way nature intended . Call me anything you like Im not about to kill myself. Dont go trying to blame me.

Hmm...but these gays did not just recieve a single insult once, or twice. Unfortunately, what happens seems to be:
-continuous personal attacks on the gays depresses them.
-actually, some people acts madly when they realize their close relatives are gays. Imagine a really close relative (whom you really love - in a way that doesn't cross into incest, by the way) calls you a freak just because you are what you are.
-those who show their gay tendency early (hence, not actually "abundant", but not freaks as you *seems* to think) were bullied in school. This kind of bully is dangerous in the long run.
-those who hides their gayness were as depressed as any other person hiding major parts of themselves from the world. It is depressing.
-why - calling people freaks once in a while won't kill them. But the gay issue is very high right now and many radical, loud, "gay are freaks" people speaking in media are harmful to one's mind.

etc.

Back to topic: these incest people are sick...

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Back to topic: these incest people are sick...

I find homosexuality far more sick. Incest is far more natural. Laws were only made against it when it was found to cause birth defects not because it was considered unatural or immoral. I thank god I never had a good looking sister. Or ant sister at all for that matter

Hmm...but these gays did not just recieve a single insult once, or twice. Unfortunately, what happens seems to be:

Well dont go around bragging your gay then. Look I dont beleive this is really the case here anymore anyway. Im shooked at the college where I work at all the rainbow coaltion papwers hanging up all over the campus. You wouls definetly realise that gays out number young republicans on campus by a large margin How is it young republicans arent killing themselves as they get far worse treatment on campus than do gays

[Laridus Konivaich]

I think that we should allow consanguinious/incestuous marriages, but at a price: mandatory removal of reproductive organs from both parties. This will certainly deal with the problem of birth defects, since there will not be any births by the marriage. The added bonus is that these people are not passing their genes on to the next generation, so...

[Gawain of Orkeny]

I think that we should allow consanguinious/incestuous marriages, but at a price: mandatory removal of reproductive organs from both parties.

Why when the probability of defects is almost identical to others who are not related?

[bmolsson]

Why is everyone so concerned over getting gays "cured"? Just let them be....

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Why is everyone so concerned over getting gays "cured"? Just let them be....

Gays cant have children by their union so what are you trying to say? Theres is no concern over them having children through intercourse.

[mercian billman]

Theres is no concern over them having children through intercourse.

Aint that a relief

[Papewaio]

Why when the probability of defects is almost identical to others who are not related?

From the article:

The study, published in the Journal of Genetic Counseling in April 2002, found that the risk of birth defects ran about twice as high -- about 6 to 8 percent -- for cousins, compared with about 3 to 4 percent for unrelated couples.

Twice the chance of defects.

[Laridus Konivaich]

Why when the probability of defects is almost identical to others who are not related?

Because incest tends to run in families, or socio-economic groups within certain areas. The chance of defects increases with each generation that engages in incest.

[bmolsson]

Gays cant have children by their union so what are you trying to say? Theres is no concern over them having children through intercourse.

The modern marriage has very little to do with children in a modern society.

My point was that people here still seems so engaged in the "curing" of the gay flu spreading over the world. Since you cant' catch it (regardless if it's a choice or genetic thingy), why worry ? Just let them be....

[bmolsson]

Because incest tends to run in families, or socio-economic groups within certain areas. The chance of defects increases with each generation that engages in incest.

Isn't it also a fact that if you have a high level of geniouses in the family, the chance of getting another genious will increase as well ??
It's not only defects that increases......

[GoreBag]

so how did you come out with this statistic?

The public library, actually. A friend of mine had found this book that had a big, parabol involving a couple who decided to clone themselves instead of having kids (for whatever reason). Eventually, the husband began to feel more and more attracted to his "daughter", even though she was just a clone of his wife.

At the end of his apparently sick fantasy tale, the reader discovers that the "son", actually the clone of the husband, had been having sex with the "daughter" for quite some time. The whole thing was meant to evoke disgust about incest even though they're technically not related at all.

After the little story, the author explains why he wrote it, and then presents statistics on incest in the US. 1 in every 100 American women has had sex with her older brother (I assume that it means 1 in every 100 American women who have an older, no 1 in EVERY 100), and that 1 in every 50 American women has had sex with her own father. He went on to present that the statistics aren't skewed because of the South - they're just as common, if not more common, in big, modern cities as with whom are generally considered hicks.

I never checked the bibliography; I was too busy laughing in a fit of shock. I'll see if I can find it again - it's been a while, but I distinctly remember the numbers, as I related them to my friends for a while until they were all as surprised and confused as I first was.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Twice the chance of defects.

Its still only a 3 or 4 % difference

[Don Corleone]

Okay, in another thread, KiwiTT was saying he was hoping to win a debate with Gawain. Well dude, here's your chance. Big G is arguing that 'bah, so what if a few of the kids come out looking like uncle fester, first cousins should be able to hit it when the mood hit". If you can't win this one, I'll be a monkey's uncle.

Gawain, just for the record, DID you happen to stray with a cousin at some point? You seem particularly invested in this issue...

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Gawain, just for the record, DID you happen to stray with a cousin at some point? You seem particularly invested in this issue...

Nah Im just playing devils advocate . Someones got to stick up for these people. I do have a few nieces Id like to shag though.

[AntiochusIII]

Its still only a 3 or 4 % difference

A difference, nonetheless. And I doubt you would like to be in that 3-4% difference that borns with defects. As you yourself once stood for (during the Schiavo controversy) that a life matters - a single 0.1% difference that decides a human's life matters. Incest is sick, for this matter.

[Byzantine Prince]

How is incest sick? Who cares as long as you love the other person. A 4 percent difference is negligent IMO. I don't get what the big deal is. You don't HAVE to have kids. Or you could have just one later on and that would be a very high chance it's gonna come out normal.

[Papewaio]

Its still only a 3 or 4 % difference

Or double the number of handicapped...

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Incest is sick, for this matter.

I fail to see any reason why incest is sick if its between two consenting adults. I was just messing aroumd with birth defect stuff but Im serious about this. A good looking intelligent woman is always attractive to me. I may not have sex with her because there is a taboo against it but not because I dont want to.

[AntiochusIII]

How is incest sick? Who cares as long as you love the other person. A 4 percent difference is negligent IMO. I don't get what the big deal is. You don't HAVE to have kids. Or you could have just one later on and that would be a very high chance it's gonna come out normal.

Those who practice incest often lack the knowledge of its danger, or ignorant of it, or neglecting it. Thus, they won't care and most likely will have children. Actually - a few percentage of increased defection possibilities matters if that is the fault of incest.

[Byzantine Prince]

Yep, but the chance is only 6% which makes it almost the same as normal rate. The fact is most people don't practice incest so the number of handicapped is so small it's negligent really. It doesn't really make a difference mathematically.

Also I'm sure people who practice incest know what is going on quite well. If they are educated they do anyways.

Also what is it out there that says you have to have kids or even marry to have sex. What kind of world is this? I thought we lived in a liberal society that allows sex between anyone.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Those who practice incest often lack the knowledge of its danger, or ignorant of it, or neglecting it

How do you know this? I think most people learn it in school if not from their parents and churches.

Thus, they won't care and most likely will have children.

? Incest has nothing to do with having children.

You havent answered the question why is incest sick yet .

[Papewaio]

Yep, but the chance is only 6% which makes it almost the same as normal rate. The fact is most people don't practice incest so the number of handicapped is so small it's negligent really. It doesn't really make a difference mathematically.

Also I'm sure people who practice incest know what is going on quite well. If they are educated they do anyways.

Also what is it out there that says you have to have kids or even marry to have sex. What kind of world is this? I thought we lived in a liberal society that allows sex between anyone.

found that the risk of birth defects ran about twice as high -- about 6 to 8 percent -- for cousins, compared with about 3 to 4 percent for unrelated couples.

Normal is half that of cousins. While brother-sister etc would be even a higher amount.

In essence first cousins marrying mean twice as many birth defects. It means twice the cost to the health system or half as much resources for the handicapped.

The only negligent thing is thinking that something that is twice as bad is equal.