I do not deny it. but not all of the German Army were voluntary soldiers. My [edited] and many of his friends were conscripted.Originally Posted by Kaiser of Arabia
I do not deny it. but not all of the German Army were voluntary soldiers. My [edited] and many of his friends were conscripted.Originally Posted by Kaiser of Arabia
Last edited by Evil_Maniac From Mars; 05-25-2009 at 03:48.
Yeah, a lot of soldiers were conscripted. Was SS conscription possible? Or just grunt soldiers?
"But if you should fall you fall alone,
If you should stand then who's to guide you?
If I knew the way I would take you home."
Grateful Dead, "Ripple"
SS no conscripts. volenteersOriginally Posted by Steppe Merc
Why do you hate Freedom?
The US is marching backward to the values of Michael Stivic.
Yea, they had very similar mindsets.PJ, from what you discribe of the Nazi's cruelty, it sounds a lot like the Mongol and other lesser steppe nation's actions. The Mongols in particular would execute an entire town that resitied, so the next town would surrender without a fight. And that also served a purpose, which they obviously relized just as the Nazis did...
Many people were forced into the SS toward the end of the war and some even early on. For instance, I believe Dutch officials urged young men to join the SS so that the Netherlands would have a favorable position in the new Europe... but there was no conscription, in Germany at least.Yeah, a lot of soldiers were conscripted. Was SS conscription possible? Or just grunt soldiers?
In a previous life, I had a German g/f who's Mom (Hedwig) & Dad (Stan) were from Silesia. Stan (a newspaperman)was told he had to either work in the local munitions factory, or put on an SS uniform. He chose the uniform.
Hedwig walked 300 miles to a railhead and hopped a train to Goeppingen, Germany (the terminus). Stan carried a rifle for 17 months, avoided capture by the Soviets, and (with his entire remaining Silesian platoon) found and surrendered to Americans; got 'processed' and reunited with Hedwig in late 1945. Ushi (the g/f) was born in 1952.
I've seen those demand/conscription documents with my own eyes. Stan died before I could talk to him...but they looked genuine to me. My personal conclusion: some SS, late in the war, were conscripted - not an entriely volunteer force.
Be well. Do good. Keep in touch.
Thats very interesting Kukri.
By no means was the SS completely volunteer by the end of the war, however its strange he was not conscripted into the wehrmacht before the SS got to him as the army had conscription privaledges in German and the SS recruited in the occupied territories. Of course that close to the end there really werent anymore occupied territories..
One thing is for sure.. If your old girlfriend put those papers on Ebay, they would fetch a pretty penny.
There were about 5000 "frontfighters" (Frontkjempere) who either helped the finnish against Sovjet or were under German command fighting against Sovjet in the eastern/baltic european area.Originally Posted by Steppe Merc
NS, Nasjonal samling, the Norwegian "nazi" party who took "power" when the Germans invaded, was a small party before the war, and had an estimated 2000 members. During the war the number of members rose to 50 000 - 60 000. Some were "forced" to join in order to keep their jobs, like policemen and teachers, others joined volontarily, probably thinking that it was better to be on the side of the victors.
Basically they betrayed their country by aiding or supporting the enemy.
There is a population of about 4,6 millon norwegians today. So I assume that it was about 4 millon in 1940. If we say that there 3 million who were old enough to make a concious desicion about who to join. So something like 1.8 % activly supported the Germans by membership to either the "Front fighters"
or/and NS. Even if more were sympathetic to the nazi cause, the majority is still vastly against it. Basically you have a few who betray the many. So when the minority lost it was bound to be punished harshly.
Sources: http://lotus.uib.no/norgeslexi/krigslex/f/f5.html, http://www.nuav.net/ns.html,
Patience is the companion of wisdom.
--St. Augustine
What Din-Heru said is true. Many of those who joined the SS had Nazi sympaties, but there were others who joined the SS, because they believed fascism was the lesser evil compared to communism and would rather fight for the nazis than the communists.Originally Posted by Steppe Merc
As a sidenote: A picture-book was recently released in Norway, with pictures of the Norwegian soldiers in German service at the East Front. This was the first book of that kind released in Norway since the war, I believe one reporter said. At least there was a news coverage about it, so it was a special event.
Last edited by Krusader; 06-03-2005 at 11:37.
"Debating with someone on the Internet is like mudwrestling with a pig. You get filthy and the pig loves it"
Shooting down abou's Seleukid ideas since 2007!
Thank you for the explinations, guys. I understand the situation a bit more now... thanks.
However, didn't a similar thing sort of happen in Germany? And why wasn't their a large backlash against Nazis in Germany itself? Obviously it's not the same, but...
"But if you should fall you fall alone,
If you should stand then who's to guide you?
If I knew the way I would take you home."
Grateful Dead, "Ripple"
Nazi's were not in the minority in Germany. Many Germans after the war felt they had been sold out by generals who spoke out against Hitler, and were ostracised after the war.
If you want to understand, look at the US Civil War, in the former Confederate states was there any ill will towards people who had fought on the side of the Confederates? (I'm not talking about the Unionists, just the population of the Confederate states).
About what happened to the collaborators, and I will become emotional, my grand parents were partisans (FTPF -communist-): Their neighbour not only went in bed with Germans, she also denounced to the Gestapo her father and brother. They were tortured and killed without judgment which at the end of the end wouldn’t change their faiths/ends. So, when liberation came, two FTPF went to fetch her, went in the forest, few shots and when they come back they were alone… And if you disapproved, well, that is your problem. You can’t ask people to be without resentment and play fair after 4 years of terror. When you find yours parents hanged, your house burned, you sister raped and murdered, you retaliated on who you catch…
Just imagine what a Russian soldier felt when coming back in Kharkov, Minsk and other towns and villages… The Russians wanted Berlin like Stalingrad… Same landscape at the end…
The people who fought against their own knew the price they would have to paid, and in France, the Epuration, the Civil War in the war was absolutely without mercy. The French Milice showed none, and nor the Partisans. To be shaved (even if it isn’t something to be proud) wasn’t the worst. And most of the time it was done by the last hour resistant. The estimated number of victims is around 50,000. The problem is the victims (in the pro-Nazi side) were mainly the smallest fishes, the big one having escaped in Germany or changed camp on time (like Papon).
In Oradour sur Glane, the Partisan took two SS prisoners. In order to avoid the reprisal (remember that the Das Reich just hanged 99 people in Tulle) they freed them. But one on the SS succeeded to see a part of the name of the village and saw partisans in arm. When he came back, the Commander (Peiper) looked the map and discovered than I think 6 or & villages sated with Oradour, He picked one by chance and they killed them all.
And PzJr, if you want really to fight resistance reprisal have just the wrong effect. The survivors will try to revenge their dead.
It was no strategic purpose. The strategic purpose should have been to treat properly the local populations which welcome the Germans as liberators (Ukraine, Latvia, Estonia, Bella Russia etc) White Russians and to enrolled them. But no, only Einsatzgruppen (the mobile killing units) were created the 21st of September 1939, just after the invasion of Poland and the massacres started and the resistance just grew-up. “According to the testimony of Otto Ohlendorf, head of Einsatzgruppe D, dated April 24, 1947, the objective was the "murder of racially and politically undesirable elements." Later on in the Einsatzgruppen trial, he said (October 1948): "The goal was to liberate the army's rear areas by killing Jews, Gypsies and Communist activists”.
The SS and other didn’t react to a situation, they created it…
I remember a documentary about French who joined the SS. He was 17 and believed that he had to fight against Communism. He didn’t know about the extermination camps, and being for the bourgeoisie had the usual anti-Semitism which was the habit (remember Dreyfus Affair) at this time. He was Catholic, and the Pope having published a “bulle” (which is an order for Catholic, not an option) to all the Catholics to join the Crusader against Bolshevism, he joined the SS (33 SS Charlemagne) in 1944, after Normandy. Nobody can say he joined to be with the winners. He wanted to fight for France and thought it was the thing to do. I can understand that. He went on the Russian Front, paid the price of his mistake with his skin and blood and show at least courage…
But the collaborators, the Milice and all the war profiteers won’t have my sympathy or my pity. They played believing they were the stronger, they lost, amen. And no, at the end some SS weren't volunteered… The Alsatians for example, if they tried to escape conscription…
Oh yes, the Germans did the same. In fact, they did BEFORE the allied arrived. They stated to killed prisoners from the beginning of the war (English at Dunkirk) and unfortunately not only the SS did it, especially in Russia where all Jews and Political Commissars had to be killed on the spot.
Last edited by Brenus; 06-03-2005 at 20:30.
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.
"I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
"You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
"Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"
Alright, I understand now. Thanks.If you want to understand, look at the US Civil War, in the former Confederate states was there any ill will towards people who had fought on the side of the Confederates? (I'm not talking about the Unionists, just the population of the Confederate states).
Brenus, it is not my problem. It is the problem of people who commited murder, regardless of justification. You can sugar coat it as much as you want, but it is wrong. I understand hatred and resetment, but killing another human being is never justified, especially when done by a group of citizens with no legal right to pass any judgement at all. If it was soldiers they caught and killed, that is understandable. But non combatants, regardless of their percieved crimes, should never be killed.
And there was a strategic purpose, from what I can see. Terror was startegy. Was it neccasarily the smartest one? Of course not. The Mongols almost always allowed rival steppe tribes to join even the Tatars (it is very unlikely that they killed all of them off, as many claim), and often allowed the towns that surrendered to survive. The Nazis weren't as kind or intellgient, and didn't allow as many people to join them. However, there was a purpose. If it was purely ad hoc as you claim, it wouldn't have been as systematic or as bad as it was, rather ressemble more the normal treatment of civilains unders soldiers. It seems to me that it was a concious dessicion to act this way choosen by the SS higher ups.
"But if you should fall you fall alone,
If you should stand then who's to guide you?
If I knew the way I would take you home."
Grateful Dead, "Ripple"
Steppe Merc, I still think it is your problem if you refuse to see the context. You can’t speak about legality during such events… In your view, Petain was the legitimate leader of France? He took power by a coup…
To kill another human being is always justified when this particular human being invades your country, loots, rapes, burns and humiliates your family. I don’t look a person, who denounced other people, as non-combatant, sorry… In particular cases, I even consider him or her as worst than the enemy which was also the opinion of the Germans. When my grand-father group took the siege of the Gestapo in Bourg en Bresse, they found on the table, in full view, all the list of the French Collaborators; obviously, even the German Commander hadn’t a great respect for them… It was a pure death sentence…
I should disagree about terror as strategy in case of the Nazi… It had no aim, no reasons. The Mongols wanted to convince other cities to surrender. The Nazi produced terror on countries yet under their control… But yes, it was a purpose: to exterminate every body… It could have been tactic but it was just pure let’s say Evil…
The deportation was carried on until the end of the war, using trains for the convoys, when the Eastern Front was crying for tanks, troops and munitions… The Russians were at the gate of Germany, and they use vital resources for extermination… Where is the tactic/strategy in that? In fact, the craziness of this Nazi regime was such they sacrificed their own soldiers to keep the extermination running…
I agree with you on one point: it is up to the people who resisted, suffered, were tortured and saw their friends and comrades killed by firing squads, their villages burned, their parents hanged to judge what they did to the traitors.
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.
"I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
"You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
"Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"
They were no better than the Nazis themselves.So, when liberation came, two FTPF went to fetch her, went in the forest, few shots and when they come back they were alone…
Edited.
Last edited by Evil_Maniac From Mars; 05-25-2009 at 03:48.
Every human is precious, regardless of their actions. What they did was wrong. But no one has the right to end another's life when that person's actions do not threaten them directly at that time.
If not the death camp members themselves, then certaintly the SS who killed innocents. An innocent is an innocent, regardless of what lies people tell themselves to sooth their concious.They were no better than the Nazis themselves.
I am not trying to protect Nazis, and I do not sympathize with them. If it was SS members that were killed, I'd have said good for the civilians. But they were not even soldiers.
As for the whole terror thing, I agree, it was a stupid tactic that hurt more than helped. But regardless, it was a policy by the higher ups (I believe), thus I'd consider it a strategy, despite it's obvious moral and tactical flaws. Even the extermination of Jews was a strategy, if a very stupid and evil one.
"But if you should fall you fall alone,
If you should stand then who's to guide you?
If I knew the way I would take you home."
Grateful Dead, "Ripple"
Originally Posted by Krusader
I believe it was the ss-Viking division there were also Swedish and Finns in it.
Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.
SS Wiking or Viking yeah. Was renamed SS Nordland at the end of the war, when it was merged with the Dutch SS force.Originally Posted by kagemusha
"Debating with someone on the Internet is like mudwrestling with a pig. You get filthy and the pig loves it"
Shooting down abou's Seleukid ideas since 2007!
Do you have any info how the end of the war went for them?I have an book about SS-Viking but it is only about Finish soldiers who were in it.Book ends in 1943 when last of the Finish Soldiers returned to Finland.Originally Posted by Krusader
Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.
SS Nordland was among the last defenders of Berlin in 1945. I think some Norwegians managed to escape Berlin and fled back to Norway, where they were thrown in jail for treachery. The rest were either killed or taken prisoner by the Red Army.Originally Posted by kagemusha
Antony Beevor's Berlin at least says so, and there have been some interviews with Norwegians who served in the SS.
"Debating with someone on the Internet is like mudwrestling with a pig. You get filthy and the pig loves it"
Shooting down abou's Seleukid ideas since 2007!
Thanks for the info krusaderOriginally Posted by Krusader
Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.
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