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Thread: Units

  1. #61
    Arbeit macht fleisch Member ScionTheWorm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Units

    great. how do you think the town watch/militia spearmen will look like for other factions? was thinking about skinning it for welsh, irish and scots. as you say, the shield can of course be changed later.

    btw, i'm confused..who's that model? townwatch or militia?

  2. #62
    Thread killer Member Rodion Romanovich's Avatar
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    Default Re: Units

    Quote Originally Posted by ScionTheWorm
    then the guys over would be
    Saxon militia spearmen

    hehe


    Actually, I think the saxon town watch can look like that. There'll be different skins for the town watch of different factions anyway, and I think the current one is good enough. Because the saxons didn't have a militia spearman unit in the tech tree, the fyrdmen fill that function. The militia spearman unit of the frankish factions should have slightly longer spears I think, but otherwise look pretty much like that.
    Under construction...

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  3. #63
    Arbeit macht fleisch Member ScionTheWorm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Units

    Okay just for discussing the "style" for some factions. Mainly thinking about milita and townwatch, but i guess it implies for other units too. My suggestion is

    Saxon
    Light brown shirts, dark with red patterns on something, brown hair.

    Welsh
    A little green in shirts, lighter hair, green/red patterns, beard

    Irish
    Some green in shirts, lighter/grayer hair, white/green patterns, mustache

    Scots
    Brown shirts, dark blue with white stripes patterns, gray/brown dark hair, beard

    Now flame me.

  4. #64
    Thread killer Member Rodion Romanovich's Avatar
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    Default Re: Units

    I have to disappoint you... no flaming this time . For scots and irish here's some cut-and-paste and summarizing of what Ranika posted:

    Scots:
    Knee-length shirt, boots over the ankle, shoulder cloak, mustache or clean-shaved. Pictish units in Scottish service should have beards. No trousers, rather cloaks. Leather coat.

    Irish:
    Knee-length shirt, boots over the ankle, shoulder cloak, mustache or clean-shaved. No beards. No trousers, rather cloaks. Padded coat. Some, especially western and isolated eastern tribes, paint themselves (possible to use for the islander unit called Inishnaghta)

    Town watch are neither supposed to be isolated for the Irish or Picts for the Scots and so should neither have beards or body painting, but stick to the rest mentioned under Irish and Scottish.
    Last edited by Rodion Romanovich; 06-12-2005 at 14:40.
    Under construction...

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  5. #65
    Arbeit macht fleisch Member ScionTheWorm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Units

    WORK IN PROGRESS: Irish Townwatch


    Didn't understand everything (no trousers??), but if this is far off I might have to make a model unique for irish and scots.

  6. #66
    Thread killer Member Rodion Romanovich's Avatar
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    Default Re: Units

    Quote Originally Posted by ScionTheWorm
    Didn't understand everything (no trousers??), but if this is far off I might have to make a model unique for irish and scots.
    Well, I believe no trousers means skirt/kilt or similar. I just summarized what Ranika said so hopefully he'll drop in and explain.

    Edit: For the Irish above and Scottish below I think the coats should be buttoned in front with one to three buttons so they don't look like they're sitting so loose they might fall off, but while they're still so open that you can see part of the clothes beneath. Otherwise great work!
    Last edited by Rodion Romanovich; 06-12-2005 at 16:52.
    Under construction...

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  7. #67
    Arbeit macht fleisch Member ScionTheWorm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Units

    And the Scottish mother-huggers might look like this:



    Peace

  8. #68
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    Default Re: Units

    Quote Originally Posted by LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix
    Well, I believe no trousers means skirt/kilt or similar. I just summarized what Ranika said so hopefully he'll drop in and explain.

    Edit: Removed comment when I saw the scottish ones below from another angle and realized the comment wasn't justified. Great work!
    I saw your edit, tried to quote, couldn't, glad your satisfied. Yes, the irish runs in the picture, and it's night or something, therefore it's somewhat uncorrect. The colors looks nice like in the other two factions.

    I liked the scots myself, nice to have some units without beard :)

    The mustache is almost like the falx-guys, which is quite heavy. Could maybe darken it a little. It's nice to get these units done 'case it makes me get a feeling about how the rest is going to look. If something is historical unaccurate (ranika) then please..... PLEASE tell me now

  9. #69
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    Default Re: Units

    Quote Originally Posted by LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix
    Edit: For the Irish above and Scottish below I think the coats should be buttoned in front with one to three buttons so they don't look like they're sitting so loose they might fall off, but while they're still so open that you can see part of the clothes beneath. Otherwise great work!
    Wow another edit... okay will do that, requires some changes in the model. Actually I agree, but it might be some work.

  10. #70
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    Default Re: Units

    And another thing I was thinking about... could of course make them more complex, give them more details. I like the simple and a little dark style though, giving it a dark age primitive feeling. But tell me if this is not the right road.

    (if I had been a member I wouldn't have to post this much *whine*)

  11. #71
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    Default Re: Units

    Ok I did it. It's attached only one place though, otherwise they looked like ugly fat pigs. Mustache to the irish, and removed the cloth from the saxon. The saxons is maybe a little boring compared, but I don't think the clothing-thing seems right on him. He might get a cooler shield

    Scots, saxons, irish townwatch

  12. #72
    Dungalloigh Brehonda Member Ranika's Avatar
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    Default Re: Units

    The Irish and Scots never wore trousers. They wore a long shirt that came to the knee, called a leine, with a belt at their waist (not a kilt, those didn't exist until the 15th-16th century). Their legs would be bare. They would be wearing boots. The town militia would be 'kernbannal'; they would have boots lined with fur, a leine (longshirt to the knee), belt, long hair, mustache probably, and a short shoulder cloak fastened at the right shoulder. The shoulder cloak covers the upper part of the chest and back, and over the left shoulder. It would have plaid colors, based on station. In this case, 2 colors, probably dark colors, but not black, and no white (black and white are for arras and their retainers only). Gaels should never ever have on pants in this period, but instead be dressed as described. They are, of course, not representing isolated groups, so no beards, no body paint. No kilt/skirt though, I'll reiterate, just a long shirt. With that out of the way;

    The kernbannal carries a spear, a round shield, and darts (short javelins). They actually fought as skirmishers, but would be as disadvantaged in melee as other militias (I'd not say more disadvantaged, most Gaels regularly engaged in training 'games' to ensure they could throw darts and use a spear, though it'd also not make them exceptional). Also, they're militia, so no leather/padded coat on them, those were worn by actual soldiers.
    Last edited by Ranika; 06-12-2005 at 20:42.
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  13. #73
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    Default Re: Units

    Thank you Ranika, you're priceless! It will be done.

  14. #74
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    Default Re: Units

    Question about the Cloak:
    fastened at right shoulder
    hanging from right shoulder covering upper chest, going under left arm, covering upper back and goes to the left shoulder? isn't physical possible... where does it go from the right shoulder?

    Thanks

  15. #75
    Forever British Member King Ragnar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Units

    Ranika do you mean something like this for the shoulder cloak.
    The tartan bit going round his shoulder thats it right?
    Last edited by King Ragnar; 06-12-2005 at 22:00.
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  16. #76
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    Default Re: Units

    hehe made that one first but when I saw closer on his description i thought it couldn't be right. first of all it's not short...

  17. #77
    Dungalloigh Brehonda Member Ranika's Avatar
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    No, that is not at all correct; the shoulder cloak doesn't go down at all. It simply hangs on the shoulder. Think a cloak, but very very short. That picture shows a kilt. The shoulder cloak is a type of mantle.
    Last edited by Ranika; 06-12-2005 at 22:43.
    Ní dheachaigh fial ariamh go hIfreann.


  18. #78
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    Default Re: Units

    Anywhere near one of these?


  19. #79
    Dungalloigh Brehonda Member Ranika's Avatar
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    Default Re: Units

    http://img70.echo.cx/my.php?image=gaul2ki.jpg Here, from EB; this is the front of a shoulder cloak. It only goes down slightly further in back.
    Ní dheachaigh fial ariamh go hIfreann.


  20. #80

    Default Re: Units

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranika
    No, that is not at all correct; the shoulder cloak doesn't go down at all. It simply hangs on the shoulder. Think a cloak, but very very short. That picture shows a kilt. The shoulder cloak is a type of mantle.
    That's no kilt, bay. It is historical dress; just not for this period. I have an illustration of that of which you tell somewhere in Dwelly's...only I don't remember the Gaelic word for it. It's not leine, either; that is defined as simply a word for "shirt".

  21. #81
    Dungalloigh Brehonda Member Ranika's Avatar
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    It appears to be a bracaettae bohirae, which is a type of kilt set (has a few sashes, a sporran, etc.), from around 1750, favored in northern Scotland. I didn't but glance at the picture though, it only took a quick moment to realize it was incorrect to period.
    Ní dheachaigh fial ariamh go hIfreann.


  22. #82
    Arbeit macht fleisch Member ScionTheWorm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Units

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranika
    http://img70.echo.cx/my.php?image=gaul2ki.jpg Here, from EB; this is the front of a shoulder cloak. It only goes down slightly further in back.
    Thank you very much

  23. #83
    Arbeit macht fleisch Member ScionTheWorm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Units

    Have encountered a problem with combining peltasts with spearmen. Since the spear is secondary weapon, for some reason he holds it upside down when not using it! May have to edit the skeleton animations, which I have very little interrest in doing. What do you think, is this totally unacceptable?

  24. #84
    Thread killer Member Rodion Romanovich's Avatar
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    Default Re: Units

    Quote Originally Posted by ScionTheWorm
    Have encountered a problem with combining peltasts with spearmen. Since the spear is secondary weapon, for some reason he holds it upside down when not using it! May have to edit the skeleton animations, which I have very little interrest in doing. What do you think, is this totally unacceptable?
    A lot of other total conversion mods have units holding their spears upside down when not in use even though it looks a bit awkward, so I think it's acceptable. I believe someone even said it was completely impossible to make it any other way, but I might be remembering it incorrectly.
    Under construction...

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  25. #85
    Thread killer Member Rodion Romanovich's Avatar
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    Default Re: Units

    Quote Originally Posted by ScionTheWorm
    Ok I did it. It's attached only one place though, otherwise they looked like ugly fat pigs. Mustache to the irish, and removed the cloth from the saxon. The saxons is maybe a little boring compared, but I don't think the clothing-thing seems right on him. He might get a cooler shield

    Scots, saxons, irish townwatch
    Wow, those are all very sweet screenies! Looks really good IMO, all of them. I see there was some discussion below the pics about the cloak, so it might get changed a little again, but I think this is a very good start and definitely the way to go!
    Under construction...

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  26. #86
    Arbeit macht fleisch Member ScionTheWorm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Units

    Hmm I believe I was wrong, may have been a skin issue with the alpha channel. Have to be!!

  27. #87
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    Default Re: Units

    Okay this is the case: he is keeping his spear in his back-pocket while skirmishing, and it is not visible before he is in close combat. Guess this is an unsolvable issue, though the units will be niice.

  28. #88
    Thread killer Member Rodion Romanovich's Avatar
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    Default Re: Units

    Quote Originally Posted by ScionTheWorm
    Okay this is the case: he is keeping his spear in his back-pocket while skirmishing, and it is not visible before he is in close combat. Guess this is an unsolvable issue, though the units will be niice.
    Lol, yeah that oddity can also be seen with the macedonian pikemen. Somehow they manage to hide a 5 meter long sarissa in their backpocket

    Anyway, now that you say it I believe it actually wasn't the javelin and spear combination that caused spears to be upside down when unused. Rather, I believe it was if you wanted units using the spears for overhand stabbing when fighting that they had to have their spears pointing down when not using them.

    This way is ok too, especially because most units with spear and javelin will have short spears. Only a few special units will have both long spear and javelins at the same time.
    Under construction...

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  29. #89

    Default Re: Units

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranika
    It appears to be a bracaettae bohirae, which is a type of kilt set (has a few sashes, a sporran, etc.), from around 1750, favored in northern Scotland. I didn't but glance at the picture though, it only took a quick moment to realize it was incorrect to period.
    I believe it's a breacan-an-fhéilidh, described as "the original garb of the Highlanders". I am unsure what exactly this means, but it could stretch back far beyond 1750.

    On the léine...

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew A. C. Newsome via http://albanach.org/leine.html
    Although[/url] it is difficult to come to too many conclusions about Irish dress from this period, it seems to be the consensus of the scholars that the léine costume was that of the aristocracy, or at least those with some authority, in the 10th century and before. In this time, we do find another form of dress, however—that of the tight fitting trews, worn with a jacket. We never see the léine and trews being worn together, though (at least not at this early period). One theory put forth that has met with some acceptance is that the trews, which are similar to other northern European garments, belonged to the native Irish. When the conquering Gaels came in sometime before 300 BC, they brought with them their looser fitting clothing, the léine or tunic. These people conquered and ruled over the indigenous people much the same way the Normans ruled over the Anglo-Saxons. Even though the conquered race eventually spoke the Gaelic language and called themselves by the same name, it was the upper class who wore the léine and the common man retained the native garb.
    Perhaps the Scottish and Irish townwatch should be wearing trews instead. I have often heard of the skirt-like garments of the Gaels being reserved for the upper-classes before.

  30. #90
    Arbeit macht fleisch Member ScionTheWorm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Units

    i agree, it won't be that bad, in most cases you won't even notice. spear not that long, doesn't give the phalanx effect

    Yes it's the javelin that's upside down hehe, thought it could be half a spear at one time.

    Anyway, what do you think legio... shirts: brown and leatherstyle like the ones I made before, or something like the modern shirts (other patterns of course, but more varied, colors, patterns etc.)

    And the dats... javelins, small modern dart arrows, I don't know. halv a javelin maybe?

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