The "manner" of office ? What do you mean ?
Missi Dominici were people working for the Carolingian kings
That is to say, what are offices, as in, what is their purpose in game?
Ní dheachaigh fial ariamh go hIfreann.
Ah, alright. Don't have BI yet, so was unaware. Do all factions get offices? Could put them together for Ireland and Alba.
Ní dheachaigh fial ariamh go hIfreann.
Alright;
Bonuses I'm not totally sure how they work, so what seems appropriate with these;
Gaelic offices:
Ruire (King; Faction leader)
Tanaise (Tanist; Faction heir)
Flath ('Prince' or 'Chief'; regional governors/leaders, administrators as well as military leaders)
Brehon ('Judge'; kept the peace, was in charge of organizing militias, as well as convened with other Brehon to vote on laws, and arbitrated in legal proceedings; every region had a few Brehon usually, selected from the most well-educated)
Cuinnaran ('Coiner'; head of a mint)
Ardtaidhleoir ('High Diplomat'; head chancellor of the kingdom)
Easpag ('Bishop' of a region)
Gaelic ancillaries (I posted more elsewhere);
Religious (Related to governing a province with religious structures)
Manarch - A monk usually was included in a chief's retainers largely to help him keep track of finances and as a personal tutor. - +Management (in a chief's retinue, it's unlikely he would be converting many people, since monks had no one to delegate to)
Ab - An abbot is a very learned monk, and head of a monastary. His signs of confidence in a leader are a boon, and he brings both considerable skill and a private cadre of monks to aide him. - +Christian conversion, influence, and management
Sagart - A priest was not an uncommon part of a Gaelic chief's followers, for both keeping a region Christian, and for aide in managing finances, as Gaelic priests were often byproducts of the best local schools. - +Christian conversion, and management
Easpag - A bishop entered into the personal retinue of a king or chief was a sign of prestige and influence; it represents a vote of confidence from the Church itself in the abilities of a man. - +Christian conversion, influence, and management
Manarmainlia - A surgeon trained in a monastary is familiar with techniques to reduce pain, clean surgical tools, remove limbs, and staunch bloodflow; he, and his associates, are useful for improving the number of survivors after a battle. - +Increases number of survivors after a battle
Scribhneoir - A scribe assigned to a chief or king takes an exhaustive record of his life; he copies down his speeches, major events, such as the birth of children, or death of close relatives or friends. - +Increases influence
Militaristic (Related to military structures or winning battles)
Gasog - Military scouts search the nearby area, and examine an enemy's position to give a commander an improved idea of how to conduct a battle. - +Armies line-of-sight, and command
Curadha - A champion in the service of a chief raises his men's morale and encourages them to fight harder. - +Morale to troops in the army, maybe an additional bodyguard or something if possible
Cogaflath - A warchief is a skilled lesser chief who has shown a knack for command. Coupled with another leader, his abilities are useful for coordinating a battle. - +Command when attacking
Dunflath - A fort-chief is a defender of a cashel, and is best used in this ability. - +Command when defending during a siege
Seanlaochagal - A veteran soldier or mercenary of a foreign people is useful when fighting them. - +Command when fighting a specific culture (same basic ancillary of various types)
Civil (Related to governing a province with appropriate structures, like courts for judges, or markets for merchants/craftsmen, etc.)
Brehon - A judge is a useful associate, both for keeping law, and keep one's self out of trouble. - +Law in a province
Ceanna - A merchant is good both for his grasp of monetary matters, and his knowledge of the inner workings of trade. - +Trade income and management
Baiera - A treasurer has an intricate knowledge of mathematics, taxation, and budgetting, and is of use in eliminating costly waste and overspending. - +Tax income and management
Ealaiont - An artisan crafts something; banners, pictures, linen works, etc. This particular artisan crafts objects for his master's fame, such as elaborate metalworks or banners depicting his victories. - +Influence
Ceoltoiri - A band of musicians sings praises about their master,and improve his image in the eyes of the people he governs. - +Influence and happiness
Cogaceoltoiri - A band of war musicians sing and play war songs that help his men keep step when marching and inspire them before battle. - +Influence and morale of army
Some Relics/Objects;
Leabhar Ciella - 'The Book of Kells' was probably crafted on Iona, but sent back to Ireland. It is a work of exquisite beauty and craftsmanship, a testament to the skill of the artisan-monks who designed it. It is a mainly Irish manuscript containing the Four Gospels, a fragment of Hebrew names, and the Eusebian canons, known also as the "Book of Columba". So beautiful is it, that when it originally turned up in Kells, Ireland, it was believed that only angels could've made it. - +Influence, and maybe Christian conversion {many times Celtic Christians converted pagans by preaching as well as displaying works of art like this}
Criosa Cillar - 'The Cross of Killarn' was later lost, but in its day, was an important symbol of Gaelic Christendom. Forged in Ireland, it was given as a gift to a Dal Riadan chief as a show of good faith, and ultimately, ended up among the possessions of the king of Scotland. It was fancifully decorated with images of angels around the host, and was attributed miracles; the host was said to bleed or weep at different times, and apparitions of angels were often attributed to it. - +Christian conversion
Brideleamh - 'The Hand of Saint Bride'. This is not a colorful term; this relic is literally the hand of Saint Bride, a beloved Irish saint. While later presented to Lisbon in Portugal as a sign of good relations, after Irish crusaders aided in taking the city from Muslims, it resided longest in Ireland, Scotland, and occassionally Wales. It was a widely travelled relic; Bride was loved by more than just the Irish, and the miracles associated with the hand were profound enough that everyone desired it to tour their kingdom. Visions of the saint, angels, the Messiah, and the Virgin have all been attributed to it at different times. - +Christian conversion
Ninnidhleamh - 'The Hand of Saint Ninnidh'; this relic does not actually contain Saint Ninnidh's hand. Ninnidh attended the dying Saint Bride, and was famed for having had his right hand encased in metal, as to never allow it to be defiled. This is the encasement. Lost, along with some of the relics of Saint Bride, during Norman raids, it was originally a part of the King of Munster's treasury, encased in a stone box, until he deemed to move it to Armagh. Like other relics of this nature, it was associated with saintly visions and inspirations, or healing those who touched it or prayed by it. - +Christian conversion
Padraightaisead - 'The Shroud of Saint Patrick'; this is not the final shroud of St. Patrick, but was one of two shrouds made by Saint Bride for Patrick's internment after he died. The second shroud was removed before burial, and hidden away for many years in the holdings of the king of Leinster, and appeared later, worn as a cloak by the high kings during their coronations; a symbol of divine providence and favor. Like many similar relics, visions and miracles are attested to it. Before it was lost, it was normally held, not by the kings, but by a shifting mileu of chieftains assigned to defend it. - +Influence and Christian conversion
Last edited by Ranika; 11-03-2005 at 23:55.
Ní dheachaigh fial ariamh go hIfreann.
Are there offices? Really?
Magyars had 3 kind of (known) offices.
Kende - sybolic leader
Gyula - military leader
Horka - judge
The exact use of the word gyula by the Magyars is unclear but, based on contemporary sources, many Hungarian historians believe that under the system of dual kingship which the Magyars used in the 9th century, the two kings of the tribal confederation were the kende (or kündü) and the gyula. While the former was the nominal leader, the latter was the chief warlord or military commander.
Horka or harka was a title used by the Magyar tribes in the 9th and centuries. According to Emperor Constantine Porphyrogennetos in De administrando imperio, the horka had judicial authority. However, in other sources the term horka was applied to a military leader (such as Bulcsú who led the Magyar forces at the Battle of Lechfeld). Certainly at some point in the 10th century the roles of horka and gyula (the chief warlord) had became similar, with the horka having authority in Western Transdanubia and the gyula in Transylvania in the east. In later sources the word appears only as a personal name.
The Faction leader can be the kende with many but only influence bonus. The Gyula can play the role of the faction heir as a commanding leader. I suggest to choose the Gyula by the command rank of the characters instead of the influence (?).
The Horka can be a trait, too but the other two cannot get this office. He may get law bonus - what else?
Sorry, but I have not ever heard about "missi dominici" at asturian royal court.
They had personal bodyguards called gardingi or fideles, as in gothic times, and other court offices.
I am still looking for that information.
I´ll post here when I find it.
Thanks.
I hadn't thought of offices yet, but it's good. One example I can think of ATM is the BEK for the Khazar Khaganate. The faction leader is the khagan, but the Bek is the commander-in-chief of the armed forces, and in practise held much of the real power. Could be and office associated with influence and command stars.
Under construction...
"In countries like Iran, Saudi Arabia and Norway, there is no separation of church and state." - HoreTore
That's fine, but Alba should have 'Righ' for their king (technically he was considered a Flath or Flabh until he took control of southern Pictland, and then was referred to as 'Righ').Originally Posted by Meneldil
Is it possible for the Irish Ruire to become 'Ard Ruire' if they control all of Ireland? And how many offices are allowed? The Gaels had many minor officials and the like; I wouldn't include all of them in any event, but was thinking about 'Deais' (Chief) and things like that.
Ní dheachaigh fial ariamh go hIfreann.
Please, what do the ATM and the BEK mean? And HRE?Originally Posted by LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix
Btw Magyars got the idea of dual kingship from the Khazars.
I have looked at all my history books and knowed history links and I have found poorly information about asturican court.
king Alfonsus II (800-842) restored gothic Aula Regia (or royal Court). I´m not sure he restored exactly, but I am going to put you the offices of gothic Aula Regia in order to allow you use some of them (choose yourself as you like) as asturican offices.
- Rex (king) or faction leader.
- dux (duke): military head of a province and usually also civil power. The only historical asturican dux was dux of Galicia (dux Galicarum). (++ influence)
- Comites- singular comes (Count): were two kind of counts: local counts, as governors of towns and counties, and comites of "officia palatina" (royal court offices)
a) About local counts we know the powerful count of Castille (comes Castellarum) (+ influence and probably + command due to be a border county), count of Alava (+ influence), count of Bierzo (+ influence), count of Bureba (+ influence), count of Viseo (+ influence), count of Lugo (+ influence), count of Saldaña (or Saldania if you have not ñ) (+ influence), count of Carrion (+ influence), count of Dueñas/Duenias (+ influence)
b) royal court offices (remember, gothic offices, could not be as exactly as in asturias):
- comes cubiculi: as in roman times, reliable person near the king, in order to advise him. (++ influence, - personal security, because of the envy and the court plots)
- comes scanciarum: similar to majordomus in frank kingdom, but with no comparable power (+ influence)
- comes thesaurorum: head of the royal treasure. (++ management, + tax collection- he does not listen at odd tales at the moment of tax collection )
- comes patrimonii: administrator about royal inheritance possesions (+ management, could be + farmer and trader)
- comes notariarum: he controls all the documents of the chancellory (+ management, + influence)
- comes stabuli: head of the royal stables (I suposse + when command cavalry...)
- comes spatariorum: head of the personal royal bodyguards (+ perosnal security and could be + command). I think this office really doesn´t exist at asturican times, so be sensible about it.
- comes civitatis: major of the royal court town. Depend on where you put the capital it could be comes civitatis ovetensis or comes civitatis legionensis, but I think if you are going to let the player to move the capital it could be wise name it as simple "comes regis civitatis". (+ influence, + personal security)
Of course I will try to achive historial sure asturican offices, but you can begin with these ones.
Good work, guys!
Last edited by Nacheras; 11-04-2005 at 21:25.
Here am I again... :)
I think about agents (spy, diplomat, assasin), and could be you want to put surnames to them.
You can use the name+az or -ez about I´ve talking about yet. i.e Froilaz, Garces, Fernandez, Gonzalez, Ansurez, Sanchez, Velez, Vermudez, Ordoniez, Menendez, Ximenez or Jimenez, Nuniez, Munaz, Dieguez or Diaz...
In fact, I think that at IX century only the great nobles (magnates) used surname.
You can use the name of the birth town too. And then I provide you of a good list of towns to add as "of..." to the name:
Cangas, Pravia, Compostela, Valtierra, Gijon, Cosgaya, Tuy, Astorga (Asturica), Lugo (Lucus), Oporto, Braga, Chavez, Viseo, Simancas, Ledesma, Agueda, Salamanca, Zamora, Toro, Saldaña, Mabe, Amaya, Oca, Avila, Segovia, Sepúlveda, Clunica, Arganza, Osma, Miranda, Revenga, Cenicero, Carbonaria, Alesanco,Palencia, Valladolid, Sahagun, Santillana, Burgos, Lamego, Soria, Coca, Vitoria, Calahorra, Najera, Orense, Mieres.
Last edited by Nacheras; 11-04-2005 at 21:42.
Meneldil: thanks. I found also 'bek'.
Mmmmh, difficult question. In fact, there was not "asturian language" in that time. All the official documents were scribed in latin. Surely, as in other parts of "Romania", there was a popular spoken local version of latin, that in later centuries derived in galaic, asturian, leonese or the more spreadly castilian, but first documents in that languages belongs two centuries after the beginning of game.Originally Posted by Meneldil
"de" is "of" in modern spanish, not at that time.
If you want to achieve maximum reality, you must to use latin forms for asturian names (and arab forms in arabic alphabet for andalusies ). In fact, most of names I have provide you are modern form spanish names of old latin, gothic or pre-roman names.
i.e, if you want to name a character as "Vermond of Oviedo", you can post "Vermudo de Oviedo" in modern spanish, but if you want to be historical exactly, you must name as "Veremundus ovetensis" (I think, cause I´m not an expert in latin ).
Is your choose which form will be used. IMO has no sense to use spanish modern forms, except could be for names without known original forms. And has little sense use a "mix" of spanish, latin and english.
Using latin forms you really hit a good kick of historically accuracy, but you will need a latin expert, and most of the names I will provide will remain untranslatable or simply posted as "macaronic latin".
Sorry, I don´t know if I have helped you or have I confused you more.
In any case please don´t doubt about questioning anything.
Good work and go on.
Well, yeah, we'll try not to mix ancient latin, modern spanish and visigothic
The best would be to have some good latin speaker, cause he would be helpful for both Asturians and Franks.
Btw, could you help me by providing a list of all the names you posted in alphabetical order, kinda like Csatadi did in the previous page ? That would be really handy, cause I currently have a lot of work (studying, helping EB, testing the viking factions )
Male asturian namesOriginally Posted by Meneldil
Adaninus
Adeca
Adefonsus/Athalfuns (goth)
Aierio
Aldroitus
Aloitus/Alois (german)
Alvarus
Annaia
Ansuro
Antin
Anton
Antonius
Apringius
Arduca
Arias
Aurelius
Ausonio
Adolfus/Astholf (lombard)
Bagauda
Beatus
Belaius
Bellidus
Berengarius
Bernardus
Boronta
Bureus
Calorato
Casius
Cesius
Cervelius
Christophorus
Chrsituevalus
Cisila
Dia
Didaco
Diego
Dulcidus
Egerius
Eita
Eiximenus
Elias
Elipandus
Elisipus
Emerardus/Hemerard (goth)
Eulogius
Favila-Fafila
Felix
Ferdinandus/Ferdinand (goth)
Fidelius
Flacencius
Flacianus
Flaino
Flavius
Florentius
Fortis
Fortunius
Fredegarius/Fredgard (frank)
Froila
Garcia
Gatonius
Gemellus
Genesius
Gisando
Glimirus/Gelmir (goth)
Gomis
Guntericus
Gustio
Gutierre
Harmonius
Hermenegildus/Ermenkhild (goth)
Heterius
Holalio
Ienesius
Iohannes
Kintila
Julianus
Lope
Lucas
Mames
Manricus/Mannrikh (goth)
Martinus
Matrolo
Maurecatus
Melendus
Menendus
Monnio
Monito
Montano
Nepotianus
Nunio
Nonito
Odoarius
Opila
Ordonio
Orvano
Pascual
Pelagius
Penoio
Pepi
Petrus
Puniolus
Radolfus/Randolf (goth)
Raimundus/Radimund
Ranemirus/Radomir (goth)
Recafredus
Recaredus/Rekhard (goth)
Revelio
Rodanio
Rodericus/Rodrikh (goth)
Rotibus
Samson
Sancio
Sarracinus
Saulus
Savaricus
Scipionus
Sebastianus
Servandus
Severus
Silo
Soario
Sonna
Stephanus
Suinitus
Tellus
Teoda
Teodila
Teodulfus/Teodulph (german)
Teudemirus/Teodomir (goth)
Tinnus
Tizo
Toribius
Usunnio
Uzerius
Valerius
Veila
Velascus
Veremundus/Vermund (goth)
Victorius
Vida
Vigila
Vimaranus/Vimara (goth)
Vincebilis
Vincentius
Zamma
Zezius
Zoilus
Zonius
Female asturias names
Aba
Adosinda
Aldonza
Anella
Argilo
Bermesinda
Brunila
Caudiosa
Creusa
Christina
Elvira
Ermesinda
Faquilo
Favinia
Froiliuba
Galla
Goto
Hildegarda
Icka
Leodegundia
Marina
Masita
Munia
Nunia
Nunilona
Oneca
Ozenda
Paterna
Sancia
Sara
Savilli
Terencia
Teudilla
Tezana
Thisiena
Togia
Urbana
Urraca
Valeria
Verilde
Ximena
Male Basque (kingdom of Navarra) names
Antzo
Asnar
Bela
Eblo
Enneko
Fortunio/Fortun (basque)
Garcia
Gondesalvo
Gustio
Rodericus/Ruy (basque)
Sanctius
Sigerici/Geriz (basque)
Ximeno/Gemeno (basque)
Female basque names
Aldoncia
Anderazo
Belascuza
Belasquita
Çinara
Constanza
Domeca
Domicussa
Elvira
Emazteona
Endregoto
Fronilla
Iuxta
Jurdana
Justa
Leguntia
Lupa
Maria
Mencia
Muniadona
Oneca
Ortissa
Sancia
Toda
Urraca
Yenega
Zianna
Hispanic Mark (catalonian and aragonese) male names
Acenar
Albinus
Aleran
Angelinus
Ansur
Arifred
Armengol
Arnaudus
Asnarius
Babila
Bela
Belasco
Bellon
Bera
Berenguerius
Bernardus
Bertrand
Bivas
Borrelius
Bradila
Centollius
Cesarius
Chacus
Dacho
Dato
Elias
Enneko
Ermennisculus
Estebanus
Exemeno
Ferriolus
Filgolo
Fortunio
Galindus
Garsia
Gerallo
Gilbert
Guillem
Gundisalvo
Hug
Humfred
Incalzatus
Magier
Maiolphus
Mancio
Mascarone
Martinus
Miro
Odalric
Odila
Oleguer
Oliba
Oriol
Petrus
Pontius
Porcelius
Ranimirus
Rampo
Raymond
Raterus
Robert
Rodebaldus
Rodulf
Sabarinus
Sancio
Salomon
Sampiro
Savigildus
Scemeno
Scluva
Suniarius
Sunifred
Uincentius
Vida
Vigila
Wifred
Wiliesindus
Witard
Hispanic Mark female names
Ahalaez
Ailo
Ato
Balla
Cixilona
Dadildis
Emma
Emon
Ermisenda
Ermisindis
Fakilo
Maria
Matrona
Petronila
Richildis
Vinidildes
All them are real names, from around 750 until around 1030.
I hope this list will be enough, because I´m exhausted (remembre, that dismish the moralle ) of searching history books.
Next day I´ll post about surnames in latin.
But first I will take a short "historic holiday". Surely I´ll pass my time playing RTW-BI or RTR
btw, I have a question.
I suppose that in RTW hardcore there is some problem about the order number of kings, due to never appears an Seluco II i.e, or a Alexander III. Always the royal name is different for any king.
Please tell me if I´m in right. If it´s so, its a really pity, because at least in asturican royal familiy some names repeats mostly (Ordonio, Radomir, Adefonsus, Garcia) and the correct way for the game should be a large list of Radomir II, Ordonio III or Adefonsus V.
Thanks
.
Hey people,
Last year a some friends and I collected a few namelists for the Modlet (link in my sig.) Everybody vanished after RTW was released and some even abandoned TW modding at all. But I decided to complete the thing "as is", ie with whatever at hand and release it as an incomplete beta. Anyway, I've taken on the name lists since yesterday, formatted some of them, verified bits and pieces etc. AFAIK the naming format from MTW to RTW hasn't changed, so MTW formatted lists must work in RTW too. (If they are different I can convert them in Excel.)
Anyway, here are the lists we have at hand:
German (HRE era), aquitaine + languedoc + provence, aragon, baltic peoples, castillia + léon, welsh, irish (probably obsolete when you have Ranika instead ), czech, armenian (kilikian), french, english, swedish, khazar, kievan rus, kypchaq/cuman (approved by Forgus today ), polish, lithuanian, mongol mixed with uyghur, norse, papal, rhomaioi (byz.), scots, finnish.
Here are the ones (male only, forenames and surnames seperately) I formatted for MTW use:
castillia + léon, german (HRE), french, kievan, polish, rhomaioi
I'm doing the rest as we talk.
I can upload/post/send one of you if you need them. As they're not solely my work credits should be cited:
solo, Eastside Character, Tricky Lady, Swordsmaster
Btw, I see you have name CTDs. It happens if you use any character not found in the English alphabet in the ["label"] part. Use them only in the {"data"} part. Ie:
.Code:["Tunon"] {"Tuñon"}
Ja mata Tosa Inu-sama, Hore Tore, Adrian II, Sigurd, Fragony
Mouzafphaerre is known elsewhere as Urwendil/Urwendur/Kibilturg...
.
.
Fine (no CTDs). I just read the first page, so...
.
Ja mata Tosa Inu-sama, Hore Tore, Adrian II, Sigurd, Fragony
Mouzafphaerre is known elsewhere as Urwendil/Urwendur/Kibilturg...
.
Rex asturorum.
Last edited by Nacheras; 12-13-2005 at 01:14.
Many of the offices you're mentioning here vary from mispelt to inaccurate to non-existent. You a charlatan ranika?
Originally Posted by Ranika
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