Club G'itmo

[Kaiser of Arabia]

That is because you were NOT nice to them. With your dodgy deals and back stabbing behind close doors - you helped FUND AQ for **** sake - you created the problem and expanded it, 9/11 was the result. Now you do your dirty laundry in public for the 'great cause'. Nothing has changed and the thread is growing.

We helped the Taliban rid Afghanistan of Soviet Rule, not Al Quida. And how is that bad? The Soviets were 10x worse than the Taliban, anyway, you shouldn't be talking about back stabbing, look at what your nation did *cough*1812*cough*.

[Tribesman]

The majority of the 'nearly 70,000' have been freed already-
Really , how do you know that ?

[Steppe Merc]

Kaiser, there's a bit of a difference from the actions 30 years ago and the actions 200 years ago... Besides, I don't blame the English for trying to reclaim their land. Any other government would have tried as well.

PJ, acting like barbarians would only give them more reason to hate us, this time truly justified. If many Muslims got angry at the flushing of a toilet, how do you think they would act at the torture of hundreds of innocent (yes, innocent, as none of them have been proven guilty) people?
It would legitimize their rethoric.

As Bruce Springsteen said:

"I'm just trying to survive
But if what you do to survive
Kills the things you love

Fear is a powerful thing
It can turn your heart black you can trust
It'll take your God-filled soul
Fill it with devils and dust"

Is it worth surviving if you become the evil you are fighting against? Not that our survival is actually threatned by any of those imprisoned...

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Kaiser, there's a bit of a difference from the actions 30 years ago and the actions 200 years ago... Besides, I don't blame the English for trying to reclaim their land. Any other government would have tried as well.

*cough*WWII*cough*Firebombingoflondon*cough*treatyofversailles*cough*

[doc_bean]

America's biggest weakness is America itself, not any self righteous socialists. The country is so soft its almost disgusting.

I agree, one or two terrorist attacks and you're willing to comprise your precious freedom for a security that can never be guaranteed completely.

[PanzerJaeger]

Pazer, what a hollow victory that would be. "The great Satan" proving by themself to be what it's said to be. Ruling by fear isn't an effective way to rule.

And become hated by the rest of the wrold in the process.........

PJ, acting like barbarians would only give them more reason to hate us, this time truly justified. If many Muslims got angry at the flushing of a toilet, how do you think they would act at the torture of hundreds of innocent (yes, innocent, as none of them have been proven guilty) people?
It would legitimize their rethoric.

You guys dont seem to get it.. they already hate us!

Weve been trying to play the nice guys since 9/11 and what has it gotten us-more hatred?

Whether we are being bashed by mullahs over a Koran that wasnt even flushed - or by our own senators(democratic) calling us Nazis for playing the music at Gitmo too loud - these people will never hear anything good about America.

The only logical recourse, since both the leaders of the Arab world and our own fifth column here in america dont want to do anything but present the worst possible picture of America is to fight a real war.

It would be different if anyone was really interested in giving a true depiction of how America is trying to conduct itself - but its become fashionable in Europe to simply bash America all the time(and of course the liberals in America who want nothing more than to make us a part of Europe copy/paste European opinions), and of course in the arab world the leaders use America as an excuse for their own bad leadership.

We lost the hearts and minds long before this war started - sad but true.

[Fragony]

You guys dont seem to get it.. they already hate us!

Yup, that is the bitter truth.

[Lazul]

You guys dont seem to get it.. they already hate us!

well, how would you change that? It seams as tho you mean that since they allready hate you, you cant change it, so then the only way is to kill 'em all.
So in your mind, a total destruction of the Middle East is the only way to solve the problem!?
or am I wrong?

[Tribesman]

The only logical recourse, since both the leaders of the Arab world and our own fifth column here in america dont want to do anything but present the worst possible picture of America is to fight a real war.
Since they have been unable to bring the 2 latest little wars to a satisfactory conclusion yet , how do you propose to fight a "real" war ? nuke every country with a Muslim population ? Lock everyone in camps if they are of the wrong religeon . Lets all hear a big cheer for genocide
You guys dont seem to get it.. they already hate us!
There was a great interview a couple of weeks back by one of the Saudi Princes . Basically it went "Why do Americans feel that everyone hates them ? America is a wonderful country , Americans are very nice people , a few radicals hate America , most people just have criticisms of some of Americas foriegn policies ."

[PanzerJaeger]

well, how would you change that? It seams as tho you mean that since they allready hate you, you cant change it, so then the only way is to kill 'em all

Youre on the right track. I dont advocate killing them all as much as I advocate removing their ability to endanger Americans. That means no visas into the US, no anti-american governments, and no middle eastern militaries.

The only way I see to win this war is to occupy the entire middle east and make the people there so fearful and yet so dependent on the US they wouldnt think about harming us. It will be possible soon with very few casualties with the latest military weaponry being developed.

I wish I could sit here and say "If we only give them more money and reach out to them, theyll stop hating us" - but thats BS. The mullahs will continue to blame the condition of the arab people on the US and people like Jag will continue to give them fuel for the fire.

[doc_bean]

Youre on the right track. I dont advocate killing them all as much as I advocate removing their ability to endanger Americans. That means no visas into the US, no anti-american governments, and no middle eastern militaries.


The only way I see to win this war is to occupy the entire middle east and make the people there so fearful and yet so dependent on the US they wouldnt think about harming us. It will be possible soon with very few casualties with the latest military weaponry being developed.

You can't even keep a little country like Iraq in check, how are you going to do that with the entire Middle East ?

Besides, no regime is really anti-US (North Korea might be, worry about them), the people don't like the Great Satan much, but the regimes recognize the need for the US. If you want peace there, if you want to end terrorism, it's the people you need to worry about. Even if they wanted no Middle eastern country could pose a military threath to the US (again, North Korea might).

You can't scare those people into following your line, it won't work, they will fight, they will suffer, they will die, and they'll do it with a smile.

I wish I could sit here and say "If we only give them more money and reach out to them, theyll stop hating us" - but thats BS. The mullahs will continue to blame the condition of the arab people on the US and people like Jag will continue to give them fuel for the fire.

Leave them alone. Don Corleone suggested it too, let the US worry about the US, let the rest of the world take care of it's own problems. Stop being the world police. Stop giving money to foreign regimes. Stop supporting Israel, they've got enough weapons to take care of themselves.

How long can they keeping hating an enemy that isn't there ?

[Xiahou]

The majority of the 'nearly 70,000' have been freed already-
Really , how do you know that ?

It seems to be pretty common knowledge. Even CBS New has reported that.

Some 65,000 prisoners have been taken during the U.S.-led wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, although most have been freed.

[Sir Moody]

and how long is a peice of string?

Most is usually a term used to pedle an idea as Most could be anything

out of 65000 how much is "Most"

[PanzerJaeger]

You can't even keep a little country like Iraq in check, how are you going to do that with the entire Middle East ?

LoL - how much threat does Iraq pose to the US? Not to mention I am not talking about politically correct war.

You can't scare those people into following your line, it won't work, they will fight, they will suffer, they will die, and they'll do it with a smile.

The way we are fighting the war today - no. The only thing keeping us from completely destroying the insurgency is our desire to help the iraqis out. If we werent so worried about rebuilding that country and making it into a democracy, our weaponry could render the nation harmless for decades to come.

And what do we get for actually being caring and trying to help a former enemy? More hatred.

Leave them alone. Don Corleone suggested it too, let the US worry about the US, let the rest of the world take care of it's own problems. Stop being the world police. Stop giving money to foreign regimes. Stop supporting Israel, they've got enough weapons to take care of themselves.

What was America doing to the arabs before 9/11, besides pumping money into their countries? What we do with Israel, our friend, is really none of their business.

In fact, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait begged us to come into the middle east and defend them against Iraq..

I dont know how we could have been any more generous.

[Proletariat]

I dont know how we could have been any more generous.

Bosnia says hello.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

that's right: Bosnia;

The situations where the whole of Nato decided to blame the Serbs for everything and then bomb them, lots, a few years later.
That was basically done in the name of trying to help Muslims.
That war saw incredible nastiness on all sides yet Nato chose to pick a side. They chose the only side that had a great deal of hatred for the west anyway, Good job. Kill, alienate and demonise your friends and lionise those who hate you.

*shakes head*

that whole thing was F'ed up.

[doc_bean]

LoL - how much threat does Iraq pose to the US? Not to mention I am not talking about politically correct war.

None of the countries pose a threat, Iraq never even did.

What was America doing to the arabs before 9/11, besides pumping money into their countries? What we do with Israel, our friend, is really none of their business.

I'm afraid that's the problem though, without Israel we wouldn't be in this mess. The Israeli took over muslim territory, the US helped them out. Everyone is screwed a few decades later.

In fact, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait begged us to come into the middle east and defend them against Iraq..

I dont know how we could have been any more generous.

Bleh, they should have solved their own problems. You have an obligation to NATO and a few other countries because of international agreements, whether or not you should try to get out of those is your business. The US shouldn't be the world police.

The UN was formed to try and be the world police, but well, we all know how that is working out. Again, not the concern of the US.

And might I add, you really are ruthless, you'd kill millions of people, imprison thousands of others and destroy entire countries so a few people can feel save, just because they happen to live in the US. It's an interesting perspective.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

if people are so concerned about Muslim land in Israel why don't you also complain about the loss of almost all of the Christian Arab communities in Palestine? There used to be loads. Now, between the Israelis and the Muslims they've almost all left.

[PanzerJaeger]

None of the countries pose a threat, Iraq never even did.

Oh really - Ask George H. W. Bush - he may disagree. Saddam had a whole country and billions of dollars at his disposal, was actively attacking American forces, supported terrorists, and tried to have national leaders assassinated.. thats a threat in my book.

I'm afraid that's the problem though, without Israel we wouldn't be in this mess. The Israeli took over muslim territory, the US helped them out. Everyone is screwed a few decades later.

When was that ever muslim territory. I believe it was British and the UN gave it to the Israelis.

Bleh, they should have solved their own problems. You have an obligation to NATO and a few other countries because of international agreements, whether or not you should try to get out of those is your business. The US shouldn't be the world police.

Who said we were the world police. .we act when our national security is threatened or when the world community asks us to help.

The UN was formed to try and be the world police, but well, we all know how that is working out. Again, not the concern of the US.

I dont believe in the UN but Korea and Iraq 1 were good causes.

And might I add, you really are ruthless, you'd kill millions of people, imprison thousands of others and destroy entire countries so a few people can feel save, just because they happen to live in the US. It's an interesting perspective.

Oh Im ruthless? Your the one who would leave the Kuwaitis and Saudis to Saddam. Your the one who would have America abandon her obligations around the world. I never advocated killing millions - only dissolving arab governments and armies in the mideast. It doesnt look like youve got much of a high horse to be preaching from.

[Tribesman]

LoL - how much threat does Iraq pose to the US?
it seems to be a much bigger threat now than it was before the invasion doesn't it . It is certainly killing and maiming a lot more Americans (and others) than it ever did under Saddam .
Now you are stuck with probably another 5 years of losing lives and money or climbing into the helicopters and running with your tail between your legs like Vietnam .
Though you have to respect Bush (did I really write that ) with his statement this weekend that withdrawing isn't an option and setting a timetable would be counterproductive .
So send lots more troops in and sort out the mess you created and do it now .

Still there is some great progress being made , what with the huge effort to finally secure the capital outside the green zone years after the end of the "war" and the big offensive in the western desert , they managed to lose control of another city . But thats OK they can always do another Fallujah can't they !!!

edited after reading this
When was that ever muslim territory.
well it was only Muslim territory for a little while wasn't it , but hell whats a few centuries matter anyway ? Empires come and Empires go . Though with your plans for world domination maybe its the start of a new Empire Panzer Oh BTW it was never British territory .

[Steppe Merc]

if people are so concerned about Muslim land in Israel why don't you also complain about the loss of almost all of the Christian Arab communities in Palestine? There used to be loads. Now, between the Israelis and the Muslims they've almost all left.

Why? Because Isreal actually has a government that is actively persecuting the Palestinians and we are actively helping them kill those innocecents. And Christian communites were sadly persecuted starting a long time ago, around the Crusades. From what I understand, it wasn't really a new thing, though I may be wrong.

Who said we were the world police. .we act when our national security is threatened or when the world community asks us to help.

National security was never threatned by Iraq. What can he have done? Nothing.
And world community? What is that? A few countries that the government decides to listen to while ignoring those that are against the war? Make up your mind: do you want to listen to the rest of the world or not? Cause it can't be both.

When was that ever muslim territory. I believe it was British and the UN gave it to the Israelis.

It was Muslim terrotory going back for hundreds of years. The way I see it, Isrealis got it only because they got kicked out of it thousands of years ago. Not great claims, if you ask me.

PJ, conquering terrotories would never work. You think they pose a risk and hate us now? They will kill, and fight until either they are dead or all the soldiers we have are. That would be a worse sink hole than Nam. The only way to stop the hatred is to stop helping Isreal, actually get the Iraqi and Afgani governments up and running independently, and leave.

Invasion will help nothing. It will cost countless of more innocent lives, including Americans.

[Xiahou]

and how long is a peice of string?

Most is usually a term used to pedle an idea as Most could be anything

out of 65000 how much is "Most"

Most, as in a majority. As in more than 80%.

Here's and article stating that roughly 10,500 prisoners are being held in Iraq and 500 in Afghanistan. It's easy to google for this stuff if you really want to know.

[Steppe Merc]

Sorry, I just got a kick out of that. I don't doubt you or your sources, but us at Europa Barborum mod recently got challenged multiple times on sources because they didn't turn up on google. So whenever I hear google and sources, I just find it funny.
However in this case, it probably is valid, but not all on the internet ought to be taken on face value, which I'm sure everyone here knows.

[Blodrast]

LoL - how much threat does Iraq pose to the US? Not to mention I am not talking about politically correct war.

so Iraq is not a threat to the US...

Quote:
None of the countries pose a threat, Iraq never even did.

Oh really - Ask George H. W. Bush - he may disagree. Saddam had a whole country and billions of dollars at his disposal, was actively attacking American forces, supported terrorists, and tried to have national leaders assassinated.. thats a threat in my book.

oh, wait - I mean, yes it is !

[Gawain of Orkeny]

so Iraq is not a threat to the US...

Not anymore. It is however a huge threat to all the Muslim fundementalists in the nations surrounding it and their governments. Hence the invasion by them called by you europeans and those on the left here an insurgency.

[Xiahou]

Sorry, I just got a kick out of that. I don't doubt you or your sources, but us at Europa Barborum mod recently got challenged multiple times on sources because they didn't turn up on google. So whenever I hear google and sources, I just find it funny.
However in this case, it probably is valid, but not all on the internet ought to be taken on face value, which I'm sure everyone here knows.

My only point was that it was easy to google for the information- not that if you can't find it in google it doesnt exist or isnt true... that's stupid. Conversely, just because you can find something on google doesnt make it true- common sense applies there I think. The link I posted was to an AP news story however, not some tinfoil hat kook site.

[Lemur]

Hence the invasion by them called by you europeans and those on the left here an insurgency.

Here are some leftie folks using the word "insurgency":

"I think they're in the last throes, if you will, of the insurgency." Dick Cheney, May 31st, 2005.

"There's still an insurgency, but there's a lot of progress." Dick Cheney, June 14th, 2005.

"I think the Iraq government will be up to the task of defeating the insurgents. I think they dealt the insurgents." George W. Bush, May 31st, 2005.

"The insurgency is very violent but you defeat insurgencies not just militarily . . . you defeat them by having a political alternative that is strong." Codoleeza Rice, May 15th, 2005.

Looky, I didn't even have to look back more than a month. Funny to see these left-wing nutjobs calling it an insurgency, when they ought to be using Gawain's term, "invasion." If we didn't have a bunch of weak-kneed liberals running the Presidency, the Vice Presidency, the State Department ...

Hey, wait a minute. They aren't liberals. They're conservatives. And, wait, they're using the word "insurgency," even though Gawain told us that only Euroweenies and tree-hugging pot-smokers use it ...

Gawain, you leave me all confused. Is everybody but you a liberal? Is Dick Cheney too left for your taste these days?

[Steppe Merc]

No, I know. I was just saying.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Gawain, you leave me all confused. Is everybody but you a liberal? Is Dick Cheney too left for your taste these days?

Oh come on. Its just another case of PC gone to far and the power of the press. They refer to it so often as an insurgency that everyone calls it that. Who was it said that if you tell a lie often enough people will believe it? You know like claiming to be Palestinains. The last time I checked an insurgency was an organized rebellion aimed at overthrowing a constituted government through the use of subversion and armed conflict . Fighters from another country do not constitute an insurgency.

[Spetulhu]

Quote:
so Iraq is not a threat to the US...

Not anymore. It is however a huge threat to all the Muslim fundementalists in the nations surrounding it and their governments. Hence the invasion by them called by you europeans and those on the left here an insurgency.

Funny, I was under the impression that Saddam cared nothing for religion. It's only now that religious parties are getting power in Iraq.