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Thread: The Left's False Narrative

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    Master of the Horse Senior Member Pindar's Avatar
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    Default The Left's False Narrative

    This is an article by Victor Davis Hanson

    Our Wars Over the War
    “The fault is not in our stars.”


    "Ever since September 11, there has been an alternative narrative about this war embraced by the Left. In this mythology, the attack on September 11 had in some vague way something to do with American culpability.


    Either we were unfairly tilting toward Israel, or had been unkind to Muslims. Perhaps, as Sen. Patty Murray intoned, we needed to match the good works of bin Laden to capture the hearts and minds of Muslim peoples.

    The fable continues that the United States itself was united after the attack even during its preparations to retaliate in Afghanistan. But then George Bush took his eye off the ball. He let bin Laden escape, and worst of all, unilaterally and preemptively, went into secular Iraq — an unnecessary war for oil, hegemony, Israel, or Halliburton, something in Ted Kennedy’s words “cooked up in Texas.”

    In any case, there was no connection between al Qaeda and Saddam, and thus terrorists only arrived in Iraq after we did.

    That tale goes on. The Iraqi fiasco is now a hopeless quagmire. The terrorists are paying us back for it in places like London and Madrid.

    Still worse, here at home we have lost many of our civil liberties to the Patriot Act and forsaken our values at Guantanamo Bay under the pretext of war. Nancy Pelosi could not understand the continued detentions in Guantanamo since the war in Afghanistan is in her eyes completely finished.

    In this fable, we are not safer as a nation. George Bush’s policies have increased the terror threat as we saw recently in the London bombing. We have now been at war longer than World War II. We still have no plan to defeat our enemies, and thus must set a timetable to withdraw from Iraq.

    Islamic terrorism cannot be defeated militarily nor can democracy be “implanted by force.” So it is time to return to seeing the terrorist killing as a criminal justice matter — a tolerable nuisance addressed by writs and indictments, while we give more money to the Middle East and begin paying attention to the “root causes” of terror.

    That is the dominant narrative of the Western Left and at times it finds its way into mainstream Democratic-party thinking. Yet every element of it is false.

    Prior to 9/11, the United States had given an aggregate of over $50 billion to Egypt, and had allotted about the same amount of aid to Israel as to its frontline enemies. We had helped to save Muslims in Bosnia, Kosovo, Somalia, Kuwait, and Afghanistan, and received little if any thanks for bombing Christian Europeans to finish in a matter of weeks what all the crack-pot jihadists had not done by flocking to the Balkans in a decade.

    Long before Afghanistan and Iraq, bin Laden declared war on America in 1998, citing the U.N. embargo of Iraq and troops in Saudi Arabia; when those were no longer issues, he did not cease, but continued his murdering. He harbored a deep-seated contempt for Western values, even though he was eaten within by uncontrolled envy and felt empowered by years of appeasement after a series of attacks on our embassies, bases, ships, and buildings, both here and abroad.

    Iraqi intelligence was involved with the first World Trade Center bombing, and its operatives met on occasion with those who were involved in al Qaeda operations. Every terrorist from Abu Abbas and Abu Nidal to Abdul Yasin and Abu al-Zarqawi found Baghdad the most hospitable place in the Middle East, which explains why a plan to assassinate George Bush Sr. was hatched from such a miasma.

    Neither bin Laden nor his lieutenants are poor, but like the Hamas suicide bombers, Mohammed Atta, or the murderer of Daniel Pearl they are usually middle class and educated — and are more likely to hate the West, it seems, the more they wanted to be part of it. The profile of the London bombers, when known, will prove the same.

    The poor in South America or Africa are not murdering civilians in North America or Europe. The jihadists are not bombing Chinese for either their godless secularism or suppression of Muslim minorities. Indeed, bin Laden harbored more hatred for an America that stopped the Balkan holocaust of Muslims than for Slobodan Milosevic who started it.

    There was only unity in this country between September 11 and October 6, when a large minority of Americans felt our victim status gave us for a golden moment the high ground. We forget now the furor over hitting back in Afghanistan — a quagmire in the words of New York Times columnists R. W. Apple and Maureen Dowd; a “terrorist campaign” against Muslims according to Representative Cynthia McKinney; “a silent genocide” in Noam Chomsky’s ranting.

    Two thirds of al Qaeda’s command is now captured or dead; bases in Afghanistan are lost. Saddam’s intelligence will not be lending expertise to anyone and the Baghdad government won’t welcome in terrorist masterminds.

    In fact, thousands of brave Iraqi Muslims are now in a shooting war with wahhabi jihadists who, despite their carnage, are dying in droves as they flock to the Iraq.

    A constitution is in place in Iraq; reform is spreading to Lebanon, the Gulf, and Egypt; and autocracies in Saudi Arabia, Libya, and Pakistan are apprehensive over a strange new American democratic zeal. Petroleum was returned to control of the Iraqi people, and the price has skyrocketed to the chagrin of American corporations.

    There has been no repeat of September 11 so far. Killing jihadists abroad while arresting their sympathizers here at home has made it hard to replicate another 9/11-like attack.

    The Patriot Act was far less intrusive than what Abraham Lincoln (suspension of habeas corpus), Woodrow Wilson (cf. the Espionage and Sedition Acts), or Franklin Roosevelt (forced internment) resorted to during past wars. So far America has suffered in Iraq .006 percent of the combat dead it lost in World War II, while not facing a conventional enemy against which it might turn its traditional technological and logistical advantages.

    Unlike Gulf War I and the decade-long Iraqi cold war of embargos, stand-off bombing, and no-fly-zones, the United States has a comprehensive strategy both in the war against terror and to end a decade and a half of Iraqi strife: Kill terrorists abroad, depose theocratic and autocratic regimes that have either warred with the United States or harbored terrorists, and promote democracy to take away grievances that can be manipulated and turned against us.

    Why does this false narrative, then, persist — other than that it had a certain political utility in the 2002 and 2004 elections?

    In a word, this version of events brings spiritual calm for millions of troubled though affluent and blessed Westerners. There are three sacraments to their postmodern thinking, besides the primordial fear that so often leads to appeasement.

    Our first hindrance is moral equivalence. For the hard Left there is no absolute right and wrong since amorality is defined arbitrarily and only by those in power.

    Taking back Fallujah from beheaders and terrorists is no different from bombing the London subway since civilians may die in either case. The deliberate rather than accidental targeting of noncombatants makes little difference, especially since the underdog in Fallujah is not to be judged by the same standard as the overdogs in London and New York. A half-dozen roughed up prisoners in Guantanamo are the same as the Nazi death camps or the Gulag.

    Our second shackle is utopian pacifism — ‘war never solved anything’ and ‘violence only begets violence.’ Thus it makes no sense to resort to violence, since reason and conflict resolution can convince even a bin Laden to come to the table. That most evil has ended tragically and most good has resumed through armed struggle — whether in Germany, Japan, and Italy or Panama, Belgrade, and Kabul — is irrelevant. Apparently on some past day, sophisticated Westerners, in their infinite wisdom and morality, transcended age-old human nature, and as a reward were given a pass from the smelly, dirty old world of the past six millennia.

    The third restraint is multiculturalism, or the idea that all social practices are of equal merit. Who are we to generalize that the regimes and fundamentalist sects of the Middle East result in economic backwardness, intolerance of religious and ethnic minorities, gender apartheid, racism, homophobia, and patriarchy? Being different from the West is never being worse.

    These tenets in various forms are not merely found in the womb of the universities, but filter down into our popular culture, grade schools, and national political discourse — and make it hard to fight a war against stealthy enemies who proclaim constant and shifting grievances. If at times these doctrines are proven bankrupt by the evidence it matters little, because such beliefs are near religious in nature — a secular creed that will brook no empirical challenge.

    These articles of faith apparently fill a deep psychological need for millions of Westerners, guilty over their privilege, free to do anything without constraints or repercussions, and convinced that their own culture has made them spectacularly rich and leisured only at the expense of others.

    So it is not true to say that Western civilization is at war against Dark Age Islamism. Properly speaking, only about half of the West is involved, the shrinking segment that still sees human nature as unchanging and history as therefore replete with a rich heritage of tragic lessons.

    This is nothing new.

    The spectacular inroads of the Ottomans in the16th century to the gates of Vienna and the shores of the Adriatic were not explainable according to Istanbul’s vibrant economy, impressive universities, or widespread scientific dynamism and literacy, or even a technologically superior and richly equipped military. Instead, a beleaguered Europe was trisected by squabbling Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox Christians — as a wealthy northwest, with Atlantic seaports, ignored the besieged Mediterranean and Balkans and turned its attention to getting rich in the New World.

    So too we are divided over two antithetical views of the evolving West — Europe at odds with America, red and blue states in intellectual and spiritual divergence, the tragic view resisting the creeping therapeutic mindset.

    These interior splits largely explain why creepy killers from the Dark Ages, parasitic on the West from their weapons to communications, are still plaguing us four years after their initial surprise attack.

    "The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars/But in ourselves, that we are underlings.""

    "We are lovers of beauty without extravagance and of learning without loss of vigor." -Thucydides

    "The secret of Happiness is Freedom, and the secret of Freedom, Courage." -Thucydides

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    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Left's False Narrative

    that is a friggin' beaut'
    "That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
    -Eric "George Orwell" Blair

    "If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
    (Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Left's False Narrative

    Yes what can you add to that. The most brilliant discourse ive seen on the matter. Those three things are really whats wrong with liberal these days.

    Our first hindrance is moral equivalence. For the hard Left there is no absolute right and wrong since amorality is defined arbitrarily and only by those in power.

    Taking back Fallujah from beheaders and terrorists is no different from bombing the London subway since civilians may die in either case. The deliberate rather than accidental targeting of noncombatants makes little difference, especially since the underdog in Fallujah is not to be judged by the same standard as the overdogs in London and New York. A half-dozen roughed up prisoners in Guantanamo are the same as the Nazi death camps or the Gulag.

    Our second shackle is utopian pacifism — ‘war never solved anything’ and ‘violence only begets violence.’ Thus it makes no sense to resort to violence, since reason and conflict resolution can convince even a bin Laden to come to the table. That most evil has ended tragically and most good has resumed through armed struggle — whether in Germany, Japan, and Italy or Panama, Belgrade, and Kabul — is irrelevant. Apparently on some past day, sophisticated Westerners, in their infinite wisdom and morality, transcended age-old human nature, and as a reward were given a pass from the smelly, dirty old world of the past six millennia.

    The third restraint is multiculturalism, or the idea that all social practices are of equal merit. Who are we to generalize that the regimes and fundamentalist sects of the Middle East result in economic backwardness, intolerance of religious and ethnic minorities, gender apartheid, racism, homophobia, and patriarchy? Being different from the West is never being worse.
    We see the libs argue these points here everyday.
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    Alienated Senior Member Member Red Harvest's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Left's False Narrative

    Having read one of Hanson's military "history of warfare" books, I'm not impressed by him. From the book I quickly concluded the guy has a serious Western superiority complex that seriously erodes the quality of his writing. It has that stench of colonial racial superiority. I hate reading obviously biased work with an agenda other than the subject at hand. I also found some disturbing factual errors in it.

    Having a bit of fun with Hanson's dribble I submit the following for amusement:

    The Right's first shackle is intellectual dishonesty.

    Its second shackle is intolerance. Treating the war on terror as a religious crusade is a mistake of the 1st order.

    Its third shackle is believing nobody to the Left of Dubya could fight a war, or do it better. History proves otherwise. And when the history of the present is written, people are going to be looking back saying "WTF?"

    Its fourth shackle is mistaking its view for moral/religious righteousness--i.e. never being able to admit a mistake.

    Its fifth shackle is that it can't do simple arithmetic--in war or at home.
    Rome Total War, it's not a game, it's a do-it-yourself project.

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    Member Member bmolsson's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Left's False Narrative

    Yep, the left is awful...

    Can you send me some more Chinese candy.......

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    Don't worry, I don't exist Member King of Atlantis's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Left's False Narrative

    Our first hindrance is moral equivalence. For the hard Left there is no absolute right and wrong since amorality is defined arbitrarily and only by those in power.
    I agree with the conservatives on this one.

    Our second shackle is utopian pacifism — ‘war never solved anything’ and ‘violence only begets violence.’ Thus it makes no sense to resort to violence, since reason and conflict resolution can convince even a bin Laden to come to the table. That most evil has ended tragically and most good has resumed through armed struggle — whether in Germany, Japan, and Italy or Panama, Belgrade, and Kabul — is irrelevant. Apparently on some past day, sophisticated Westerners, in their infinite wisdom and morality, transcended age-old human nature, and as a reward were given a pass from the smelly, dirty old world of the past six millennia.
    Rivers of blood dont make peace. Sure war can be neccesary, but it is never favorable.


    The third restraint is multiculturalism, or the idea that all social practices are of equal merit. Who are we to generalize that the regimes and fundamentalist sects of the Middle East result in economic backwardness, intolerance of religious and ethnic minorities, gender apartheid, racism, homophobia, and patriarchy? Being different from the West is never being worse.
    Just cause something is differnt than the west doesn't mean it has to be bad either.

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    Master of the Horse Senior Member Pindar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Left's False Narrative

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Harvest
    Having read one of Hanson's military "history of warfare" books, I'm not impressed by him. From the book I quickly concluded the guy has a serious Western superiority complex that seriously erodes the quality of his writing.
    The West is superior. Three simple examples: the advent of democracy, the creation of science, the rise of civil liberties.

    "We are lovers of beauty without extravagance and of learning without loss of vigor." -Thucydides

    "The secret of Happiness is Freedom, and the secret of Freedom, Courage." -Thucydides

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    Narcissist Member Zalmoxis's Avatar
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    Alienated Senior Member Member Red Harvest's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Left's False Narrative

    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar
    The West is superior. Three simple examples: the advent of democracy, the creation of science, the rise of civil liberties.
    You can pretty much throw objectivity out the window with that statement...

    Its probably not worth getting into, but I'll point out that little of this really jelled until the last 200 years or so. VDH tries to take it forward from ancient Greece (we'll just ignore the intervening several millenia.) He conveniently ignores Assyria, which had a way of warfare that was revolutionary. And of course, there are other cultures that had elements of aspects you mention earlier (especially science) most didn't survive and we know next to nothing about many, many cultures that are long departed. A culture could have had all of these, and still be gone and we would never know. Greece had all of them, but was subdued first by a brilliant general...then by a republic...

    VDH's book looks more like an excuse for his beliefs, rather than carrying the reader through a well balanced evaluation that leads to the author's conclusions. And the funny thing is that before reading the book, I would have agreed with VDH. But after reading the book I had an uneasy feeling about it because of the author's tone.
    Last edited by Red Harvest; 07-16-2005 at 09:05.
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    PapaSmurf Senior Member Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Left's False Narrative

    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar
    The West is superior. Three simple examples: the advent of democracy, the creation of science, the rise of civil liberties.
    And we betrayed it all; we enslaved the world population in our colonial zele, use chemical weapons massively in WWI to kill ourselves in our patriotic fervour, and applied our ingenious productive mind to find the best way to slaughter millions of people during WWII. Auschwitz.

    We, civilisations, know now that we are mortals.

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    Master of the Horse Senior Member Pindar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Left's False Narrative

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Harvest
    You can pretty much throw objectivity out the window with that statement...

    Its probably not worth getting into, but I'll point out that little of this really jelled until the last 200 years or so. VDH tries to take it forward from ancient Greece (we'll just ignore the intervening several millenia.) He conveniently ignores Assyria, which had a way of warfare that was revolutionary. And of course, there are other cultures that had elements of aspects you mention earlier (especially science) most didn't survive and we know next to nothing about many, many cultures that are long departed. A culture could have had all of these, and still be gone and we would never know. Greece had all of them, but was subdued first by a brilliant general...then by a republic...

    VDH's book looks more like an excuse for his beliefs, rather than carrying the reader through a well balanced evaluation that leads the author's conclusions. And the funny thing is that before reading the book, I would have agreed with VDH. But after reading the book I had an uneasy feeling about it because of the author's tone.
    Democracy can be traced to the Fifth Century B.C.
    Science is a product of the Seventeenth Century. It has no prior correlate.
    Civil liberties date from the Eighteenth Century.

    The above examples regardless of chronological ordering remain Western constructs.

    A cultural-parity approach seems only tenable for those who haven't spent time outside of the Western cultural loop.

    "We are lovers of beauty without extravagance and of learning without loss of vigor." -Thucydides

    "The secret of Happiness is Freedom, and the secret of Freedom, Courage." -Thucydides

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    Master of the Horse Senior Member Pindar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Left's False Narrative

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
    And we betrayed it all; we enslaved the world population in our colonial zele, use chemical weapons massively in WWI to kill ourselves in our patriotic fervour, and applied our ingenious productive mind to find the best way to slaughter millions of people during WWII. Auschwitz.

    We, civilisations, know now that we are mortals.

    Louis,
    Slavery, empire building and genocide are not unique to the West unfortunately.

    "We are lovers of beauty without extravagance and of learning without loss of vigor." -Thucydides

    "The secret of Happiness is Freedom, and the secret of Freedom, Courage." -Thucydides

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    PapaSmurf Senior Member Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Left's False Narrative

    Oh, I think we beat everybody on the sheer scale of it. And as far as I know, we were the first for massive industrial slaughter.


    But back on topic... Even if we are not the only ones, at least others are not parading, pretending they are superior and lecturing people how great they are... are they?

    If we're doing this just like anyone else, which is arguable, how are we superior, despite our higher morale status?

    Louis,
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    Master of the Horse Senior Member Pindar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Left's False Narrative

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
    Oh, I think we beat everybody on the sheer scale of it. And as far as I know, we were the first for massive industrial slaughter.
    Given industry is a product of the West this statement would seem self-evident. But given the spread of industrial technology to non-Western peoples has seen their own use of mass slaughter i.e. China and Cambodia: this doesn't seem to be a particularly unique experience.


    But back on topic... Even if we are not the only ones, at least others are not parading, pretending they are superior and lecturing people how great they are... are they?

    If we're doing this just like anyone else, which is arguable, how are we superior, despite our higher morale status?

    Louis,
    Every culture Asian culture I have spend time in seems to argue: it is superior to all others. This usually follows cultural/racial lines. The difference in assertions is, as I have cited: democracy, civil liberties and science are real goods that vastly improve the quality of life of any influenced by them.

    "We are lovers of beauty without extravagance and of learning without loss of vigor." -Thucydides

    "The secret of Happiness is Freedom, and the secret of Freedom, Courage." -Thucydides

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    Member Member bmolsson's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Left's False Narrative

    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar
    Every culture Asian culture I have spend time in seems to argue: it is superior to all others. This usually follows cultural/racial lines. The difference in assertions is, as I have cited: democracy, civil liberties and science are real goods that vastly improve the quality of life of any influenced by them.
    Singapore argues that the "Asian way" of ruling countries are superior...
    And it's sometimes hard to claim otherwise with Singapore....

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    PapaSmurf Senior Member Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Left's False Narrative

    This is not the place to argue about the uniqueness of WWII final solution. That's for another topic.




    As already mentioned we did not live up to those achievements.

    Our claim of superiority is undermined by our history of monstrosity.

    Let's admit (and forget ancient Greek) that democracy is a Western value: we had a long history of NOT SHARING IT with our slaves and puppet states around the world. We still don't share it; we pay lip service to the concept in other countries. We've been for years: "it would be great if democracy is everyhwere, we look forward spreading it, yadi, yada....".
    When looking at actual achievement over the last 200 years, there is nothing to be proud of.

    Science? We put it into greedy hands, or in violent ones... Ah... The chemicals in Ypres...


    I got no doubt of the inner good of spreading democracy, I am very happy that our understanding of the world is improving and I see those are great achievements.

    But when it comes to try to get our fellow human brothers to adopt those, and given our bloody history of screwing them around while pretending we were superior, I do believe a little more humility, and a more down to earth approach would give you greater good will than arrogant lecturing.
    The few last times we were in Iraq, we did nothing to promote democracy: the brit did not in between WW (despite Lawrence pledge), and we did not again after the previous Gulf War.

    If I were an Iraqi intellectual reading this... I'd grow cynical.

    Louis,
    [FF] Louis St Simurgh / The Simurgh



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    Master of the Horse Senior Member Pindar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Left's False Narrative

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe

    I got no doubt of the inner good of spreading democracy, I am very happy that our understanding of the world is improving and I see those are great achievements.

    Louis,
    You have made my point.

    "We are lovers of beauty without extravagance and of learning without loss of vigor." -Thucydides

    "The secret of Happiness is Freedom, and the secret of Freedom, Courage." -Thucydides

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    PapaSmurf Senior Member Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Left's False Narrative

    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar
    You have made my point.

    LOL !

    Louis,
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    Things Change Member JAG's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Left's False Narrative

    Down with the left!

    All they ever want to do is hurt, pillage and destroy!

    Stupid lefties always trying to help the less fortunate. Disgusting.
    GARCIN: I "dreamt," you say. It was no dream. When I chose the hardest path, I made my choice deliberately. A man is what he wills himself to be.
    INEZ: Prove it. Prove it was no dream. It's what one does, and nothing else, that shows the stuff one's made of.
    GARCIN: I died too soon. I wasn't allowed time to - to do my deeds.
    INEZ: One always dies too soon - or too late. And yet one's whole life is complete at that moment, with a line drawn neatly under it, ready for the summing up. You are - your life, and nothing else.

    Jean Paul Sartre - No Exit 1944

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    Things Change Member JAG's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Left's False Narrative

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
    Woohoo, Bias propaganda that only servs to keep the crappy wheel of Propaganda spinning. Both sides have policies, party members, and supporters to be ashamed of. That article just smacks of self-rightousness.
    The right being 'self-righteous'?! Never!

    GARCIN: I "dreamt," you say. It was no dream. When I chose the hardest path, I made my choice deliberately. A man is what he wills himself to be.
    INEZ: Prove it. Prove it was no dream. It's what one does, and nothing else, that shows the stuff one's made of.
    GARCIN: I died too soon. I wasn't allowed time to - to do my deeds.
    INEZ: One always dies too soon - or too late. And yet one's whole life is complete at that moment, with a line drawn neatly under it, ready for the summing up. You are - your life, and nothing else.

    Jean Paul Sartre - No Exit 1944

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    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Left's False Narrative

    Quote Originally Posted by JAG
    The right being 'self-righteous'?! Never!


    the left should be called "self-lefteous"
    "That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
    -Eric "George Orwell" Blair

    "If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
    (Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
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    Default Re: The Left's False Narrative

    Ah. Liberals. You have to love them. They are just so ignorant of the world, yet they persist in attempts to initiate programs that, if they suceed, would lead to the downfall of civilization, the 'Fall of Babylon,' if you will. They have gained a major foothold in formerly conservative Europe, and are begining to spread like cancer throughout the American States. They spread a creed of silent hatred and they worship people like Che Guevera, Bin Laden, and Chaves. In their eyes, these universally recognized villains are nothing more then Freedom fighters. Now, for some debating:

    Oh, I think we beat everybody on the sheer scale of it. And as far as I know, we were the first for massive industrial slaughter.

    Ah, but you see, it is not always the size of things that counts, it is the impact. No doubt the Holocost had a massive impact on the world, but I doubt it would have happened on the scale it did if the Turks, an eastern culture, didn't massacre well over a million people in the Armenian Genocides. Also, western cultures may have invented genocide, but the east perfected it. Ever hear of the Stalinist Purges? Or the Chinese Cultural Revolution? What about the Genocides in the Sudan, and in Rwanda? Saddams genocide of the Kurds?
    we enslaved the world population in our colonial zele
    Turks beat us to it, I'm afraid.

    Rivers of blood dont make peace. Sure war can be neccesary, but it is never favorable.

    Au contraire, war often will lead to peace. The Napoleonic Wars secured peace in Europe for literally 99 years. There hasn't been another major war on the American continent since the United States civil war. I can go on.

    Why do you hate Freedom?
    The US is marching backward to the values of Michael Stivic.

  23. #23
    Mad Professor Senior Member Hurin_Rules's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Left's False Narrative

    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar
    Democracy can be traced to the Fifth Century B.C.
    Actually, it goes back well before that. Greece is the first democracy in western culture to leave large amounts of written evidence. That's it. If you look at pre-literate tribal cultures, many of them are democratic--and far more democratic than ancient Greece. This idolization of Greek democracy is a product of a Eurocentric historiography itself, and in fact proves precisely the opposite of what VDH is trying to say in his myopic rant.

    Science is a product of the Seventeenth Century. It has no prior correlate.
    If you are referring to discoveries, then the statement is clearly false. If you are referring to the method, there is more substance to the statement.

    Civil liberties date from the Eighteenth Century.
    False. Read the Magna Carta.

    A cultural-parity approach seems only tenable for those who haven't spent time outside of the Western cultural loop.
    Actually, the exact opposite is true. Its those who don't know much about other cultures who generally dismiss them as inferior. Ignorance and bigotry go hand in hand.

    Anyway, back to Hanson's rant:

    Pure crap. This idea that US foreign policy has nothing to do with Muslim anger towards the USA is piffle, and I'm not quite sure why he's spouting it. The US government itself concluded that much of the anger against the USA in the Muslim world can be tied directly to US policies. If you want simplistic explanations, then try this one on for size: 'They' don't hate 'us' because they are evil or hate freedom; 'they' hate 'us' because we support Israel and a horde of dictators across the Muslim world so that we can make bigger profits.

    Believe Hanson if you like. I'm sure its comforting to think that your government never does anything wrong, that everyone who disagrees with you is evil and that you're just plain better than everyone else on the planet. The Romans thought that too right up to the moment they saw Alaric's Visigoths coming over the seventh hill.
    Last edited by Hurin_Rules; 07-16-2005 at 19:13.
    "I love this fellow God. He's so deliciously evil." --Stuart Griffin

  24. #24
    Master of the Horse Senior Member Pindar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Left's False Narrative

    Quote Originally Posted by Hurin_Rules
    Actually, it goes back well before that. Greece is the first democracy in western culture to leave large amounts of written evidence. That's it. If you look at pre-literate tribal cultures, many of them are democratic--and far more democratic than ancient Greece. This idolization of Greek democracy is a product of a Eurocentric historiography itself, and in fact proves precisely the opposite of what VDH is trying to say in his myopic rant.
    Democracy is traditionally tied to a larger political ethos. This ethos involves a theoretical strata that defines roles of the state vis-a-vis citizenry. Tribes holding council or friends deciding together what movie to go see may certainly include a consensus, but do not meet the larger standard of civilization.


    If you are referring to discoveries, then the statement is clearly false. If you are referring to the method, there is more substance to the statement.
    Science is a theoretical position.


    False. Read the Magna Carta.
    The Magna Carta is typically cited as one of the important steps towards the return of democracy, but referencing it as a civil liberties text seems odd in that it is a royal decree and thus derives its force from royal mandate.

    Civil liberties discourse usually places the subject along lines where liberties are beyond the power of the state as their force is extra-governmental.



    Actually, its quite the opposite. Its those who don't know much about other cultures who generally dismiss them as inferior.
    You haven't spent much time outside the West have you.

    Anyway, back to Hanson's rant:

    Pure crap. This idea that US foreign policy has nothing to do with Muslim anger towards the USA is piffle, and I'm not quite sure why he's spouting it. The US government itself concluded that much of the anger against the USA in the Muslim world can be tied directly to US policies. If you want simplistic explanations, then try this one on for size: 'They' don't hate 'us' because they are evil or hate freedom; 'they' hate 'us' because we support Israel and a horde of dictators across the Muslim world so that we can make bigger profits.

    Believe Hanson if you like. I'm sure its comforting to think that your government never does anything wrong, that everyone who disagrees with you is evil and that you're just plain better than everyone else on the planet. The Romans thought that too right up to the moment they saw Alaric's Visigoths coming over the seventh hill.
    The above is not an argument. You should try and restrain your anti-Americanism a little more.

    You get a half-point for using "piffle".

    "We are lovers of beauty without extravagance and of learning without loss of vigor." -Thucydides

    "The secret of Happiness is Freedom, and the secret of Freedom, Courage." -Thucydides

  25. #25

    Default Re: The Left's False Narrative

    Very good article.

    People on this very board refuse to see Saddams regime as any less moral than western democracy. With that line of thinking, people justify their opinion that a tyrant should be left in power.

  26. #26
    Alienated Senior Member Member Red Harvest's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Left's False Narrative

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJager

    People on this very board refuse to see Saddams regime as any less moral than western democracy. With that line of thinking, people justify their opinion that a tyrant should be left in power.
    What utter crap. The only one I see making that assertion is you.
    Rome Total War, it's not a game, it's a do-it-yourself project.

  27. #27
    Things Change Member JAG's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Left's False Narrative

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Harvest
    What utter crap. The only one I see making that assertion is you.
    I am glad someone else spotted it.
    GARCIN: I "dreamt," you say. It was no dream. When I chose the hardest path, I made my choice deliberately. A man is what he wills himself to be.
    INEZ: Prove it. Prove it was no dream. It's what one does, and nothing else, that shows the stuff one's made of.
    GARCIN: I died too soon. I wasn't allowed time to - to do my deeds.
    INEZ: One always dies too soon - or too late. And yet one's whole life is complete at that moment, with a line drawn neatly under it, ready for the summing up. You are - your life, and nothing else.

    Jean Paul Sartre - No Exit 1944

  28. #28
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Left's False Narrative

    People on this very board refuse to see Saddams regime as any less moral than western democracy. With that line of thinking, people justify their opinion that a tyrant should be left in power.
    Worse than that many liberals here love to mention that soon China will eclpise us as a world power. Its not bad enough they seem to find China as moraly equivalent of the US but actually take glee and in fact we may be replaced and cant wait for that day. Thats plain sick.
    Last edited by Gawain of Orkeny; 07-16-2005 at 23:38.
    Fighting for Truth , Justice and the American way

  29. #29

    Default Re: The Left's False Narrative

    Ive read several times people talk about how the US is bad for making a value judgement about democracy over dictatorships in regards to the Iraq war.

  30. #30
    Mad Professor Senior Member Hurin_Rules's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Left's False Narrative

    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar
    Democracy is traditionally tied to a larger political ethos.
    This 'tradition' is the very Eurocentric historiography in question. To defend Hanson by referring to it is circular.


    This ethos involves a theoretical strata that defines roles of the state vis-a-vis citizenry. Tribes holding council or friends deciding together what movie to go see may certainly include a consensus, but do not meet the larger standard of civilization.
    Ah, I see. So the West is now the arbiter of civilization? Good for it.

    Science is a theoretical position.
    So is the Western superiority complex.

    The Magna Carta is typically cited as one of the important steps towards the return of democracy, but referencing it as a civil liberties text seems odd in that it is a royal decree and thus derives its force from royal mandate.
    If you want to rule out all documents enacted by royal decree from your definition of civil liberties, then you're going to have to ignore most of the history of civil liberties.

    Civil liberties discourse usually places the subject along lines where liberties are beyond the power of the state as their force is extra-governmental.
    Modern civil liberties discourses, perhaps, but I thought you were talking about origins?

    You keep making arguments along the lines of 'this is usually done this way' or 'traditionally, this is what has been done'. Well, slavery was a 'tradtional' part of western culture for millenia, and racism is a usual foundation for intolerance. Custom and authority are not arguments.

    You haven't spent much time outside the West have you.
    Enough to know that intolerance springs from ignorance.


    The above is not an argument. You should try and restrain your anti-Americanism a little more.
    Actually, it is far more of an argument than anything your post provided, which relied on a circular appeal to Eurocentrist historiography and the ponderous weight of unthinking tradition. I, on the other hand, referred to the US governments own study that showed that the amorphous explanation 'they hate freedom' was simply wrong. Most people like America; its the policies of its government they hate. That and all those invasion thingys.

    Here's the link:

    http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:...om+study&hl=en


    You get a half-point for using "piffle".
    Thanks, I'm glad someone noticed. I was originally torn between bilge and dreck, but then piffle suddenly came to me. Call it divine inspiration.
    Last edited by Hurin_Rules; 07-17-2005 at 03:03.
    "I love this fellow God. He's so deliciously evil." --Stuart Griffin

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