Stalin

[Red Harvest]

It was done to mantain order.

That's a very scary thought...

One could propose killing off or incarcerating all teenagers to accomplish the same thing. That wouldn't actually be too far from Stalin's approach.

Stalin was an absolute tyrant. His was a system all about maintaining control for STALIN, not for the people. Stalinism is the best description. He killed and incarcerated many of the USSR's best and brightest, because they were a threat to HIM, not ot the state.

He killed off tens of millions in purges and made the USSR incredibly weak militarily by purging the officer corps. He created the conditions that allowed Russia to be overrun by the Nazis, even though that wasn't his intent.

[scooter_the_shooter]

edit i just checked it was 20 million

[Red Harvest]

1.Belief in strong military - how many strong countries without such belief do you know?

The majority of countries have only a rather modest military...as long as there are totalitarian regimes out there, the democracies and republics are going to maintain larger armies than they would necessarily like to have.

While Stalin may have "believed" in a strong military, his purges weakened it. And locking up talented aircraft designers and the like hardly contributed to a strong military.

Some of the reviews of the deaths associated with Stalin give him credit for at least half the USSR's war dead...since he was as much responsible for it as Hitler.

He was tenacious in trying to preserve his nation for himself after it was attacked, that I can give him credit for. However, he also used his civilians as a "meat shield" (borrowing TW games terminology.)

[IliaDN]

The majority of countries have only a rather modest military...as long as there are totalitarian regimes out there, the democracies and republics are going to maintain larger armies than they would necessarily like to have.

While Stalin may have "believed" in a strong military, his purges weakened it. And locking up talented aircraft designers and the like hardly contributed to a strong military.

Some of the reviews of the deaths associated with Stalin give him credit for at least half the USSR's war dead...since he was as much responsible for it as Hitler.

He was tenacious in trying to preserve his nation for himself after it was attacked, that I can give him credit for. However, he also used his civilians as a "meat shield" (borrowing TW games terminology.)

How is it connected to the topic?
Any arguments except this one?

[Pindar]

Stalin was a fascist.

I would even go as far as to say that with regards to some important aspects the US is closer to the actual idea of Communism than the Stalinistic USSR was.

[Red Harvest]

How is it connected to the topic?
Any arguments except this one?

LOL, considering it was in response to one of your points, that's rich. So I guess you are trying to say you were off topic with your defense of Stalin?

Russia seems to have a national desire to be ruled by strongmen, even if they happen to be dictators. It is my hope that the country will mature, and take control of its own affairs, rather than wishing for a benevolent dictator (or any dictator) to "restore order."

[IliaDN]

1.I wanted to ask whom do you consider Stalin.
2.You are bit off topic about the current situation in my country.
Dictatorship could be one of the best variants of future, but not the desired one.

[Byzantine Prince]

~The system of the communist party in Russia was set up to keep one man in Russia in power until his death. If Lenin had lived longer or if Trtsky had lived longer they would be like Stalin except maybe less brutal. Still dictatorial though.~

[IliaDN]

~The system of the communist party in Russia was set up to keep one man in Russia in power until his death. If Lenin had lived longer or if Trtsky had lived longer they would be like Stalin except maybe less brutal. Still dictatorial though.~

Topic is about Stalin, stay on topic, please.

[econ21]

Topic is about Stalin, stay on topic, please.

BP was wholly on topic. Most people agree that Lenin and Trotsky were Communist. BP is saying that the USSR would have turned out similarly under them to what it did under Stalin. Ergo, Stalin was a Communist. I agree with that logic. The essence of the USSR - the one-party system, state ownership, collectivisation, forced industrialisation, fermenting revolution abroad etc were shared ideals of the Bolshevik leaders.

What Stalin added, IMO, was a vicious paranoia that led him to butcher many of his fellow Bolsheviks and many ordinary people in purges. If you think such purges were necessary to keep "order", that just shows how worthless maintaining the Communist "order" was.

[IliaDN]

BP was wholly on topic. Most people agree that Lenin and Trotsky were Communist. BP is saying that the USSR would have turned out similarly under them to what it did under Stalin. Ergo, Stalin was a Communist. I agree with that logic. The essence of the USSR - the one-party system, state ownership, collectivisation, forced industrialisation, fermenting revolution abroad etc were shared ideals of the Bolshevik leaders.

What Stalin added, IMO, was a vicious paranoia that led him to butcher many of his fellow Bolsheviks and many ordinary people in purges. If you think such purges were necessary to keep "order", that just shows how worthless maintaining the Communist "order" was.

1. By staying on topic I meant to say what is his opnion.
2. Mantaining just a simple order.
Edit: Because country was ready to tear apart.

[Byzantine Prince]

~I think I stated that my opinion was that the communist (bolshevik) party's system of leadership was set up so Stalin or whoever would stay in power for as long as they lived. It wasn't necessarily Stalin's own doing that he was a dictator. That's my opinion and now it's clear.~

[Ser Clegane]

Hehe ... one aspect I am referring to would be e.g. the ownership of production assets. As a matter of fact significant parts of the US industry are indeed owned by the workers via pension funds or directly via shares that are owned by employees. I would not say that in the Stalinistic USSR the workers could really claim to own the assets. They were rather state-owned, and as (at least IMHO) in the Stalinistic USSR the State was not equivalent to the working-class (it was rather an Oligarchy), I would say that the US comes closer to the idea of the working-class owning the assets than Stalin's USSR.

Also my impression is that "smalltown-USA" were the individual citizen can (to my knowledge) influence a lot of policies is closer to the idea on "Council Communism" than the Communist Party centered approach of Stalin's USSR.

But to put you at ease - it would probably be more precise to say that Stalin's USSR was further away from the ideals of Communism that the US, that to say that the US is closer to the ideals of Communism

[Gawain of Orkeny]

He was maybe the most evil man to ever walk the earth even surpassing Hitler. Its funny two men and nations fought eachother so hard when in actuality they were like two peas in a pod.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Stalinism is an offshoot of Communism. Therefore, Stalin was a Communist.
Trotskyism is Stalinism with a different name. So is Leninism and Marxism.

[Azi Tohak]

Thanks bmolsson. I agree with you.

And if I could find the source again, I would give it.

I remember reading that the last of the Romanovs was turning Russia from a joke into a powerhouse. Between 1900 and 1914 Russia had a huge industrial turn-around along with massively increasing literacy. If only I could find the source! Romanov Russia was not a backwoods joke of a country ruled by an inept despot at the start of the 20th century.

But then...the Czar stepped in it. WWI has gutted eastern europe to this day. Civil war and then Communism showed up and gutted the country.

Azi

[Ser Clegane]

Its funny two men and nations fought eachother so hard when in actuality they were like two peas in a pod.

We are probably fortunate that they did - imagine the world if they really had joined forces and tried to divide up the world between them

[Pindar]

But to put you at ease - it would probably be more precise to say that Stalin's USSR was further away from the ideals of Communism that the US, that to say that the US is closer to the ideals of Communism

So, the U.S. is a workers paradise! Cheers Comrade!

or maybe this would be better given our collectivist sentiment:

(Pindar looks for his wallet to go buy a Mao suit and a red flag.)

[Ser Clegane]

So, the U.S. is a workers paradise! Cheers Comrade!

Well ... I certainly would prefer to be a worker in today's US than in Stalin's USSR

[Gawain of Orkeny]

So, the U.S. is a workers paradise!

Without a doubt.

[Big_John]

from the arguments given in this thread alone.. i vote fascicommunist!!!

[Kagemusha]

I voted i dont care.I know many Russians consider him as hero.Im Finnish and i consider him as an monster.Only good thing i can say about Josif Vissarionovits Dzugasvili is that he took over an country of musiks and transformed it to country of labourers.In short he created the industrial revolution in Soviet Union.

[Lazul]

Well he sure was alot of things, but no true communist. I know a few communists and they all view Stalin as the main destroyer of communism at that time.
If you ask me Russia was one of the worst nations to start the communist world revolution. Many ive talk to, even rightwingers all agree that western europe would have been a more succesfull place to turn into a communist nation.

but anyway, Stalin was a Stalinist, a corrupt form of communism wich is far from the original idea.

[PanzerJaeger]

Grr..

Stalin was a communist. He disbanded private property and personal wealth, except for the politicos. He collectivized farming and put industry solely in the hands of government. He completely overthrew the hierarchy and ruling class - well actually his leader Lenin did that but he was a player when that happened. Russian money was worthless, which is a trademark of a communist state.

Hitler's control over people only extended to the political realm. Even during wartime he left industry and most private property in the hands of its owners, and those industry leaders bid for military contracts. His most ambitious social policies didn't even get near the social engineering done during Stalin's reign. The hierarchy and class system was mostly left alone. Hitler had many populist ideas, but he was a traditionalist at heart. He wanted, or said he wanted, all Germans to be happy - but he also loved the traditional German institutions. Stalin throughout his career fought against the Tsarist russian system. (And by the way, I think Hitler went far beyond true fascism into dictatorship, but his government is the best example for comparison because it was based in fascist principles.

I've read a lot about Stalin and he was a true communist at heart in the beginning, and his track record shows that. It seems that he gave communism his best efforts and realized it wasn't working and became much more of a dictator than a true communist.

This is how it always happened. We saw true communist "ideas" attempted in China, Cambodia and a host of other countries. When those "ideas" were shown to be completely detrimental to society, the communist government was forced to become much more dictatorial to stave off the same sort of popular uprising that put them into power.

I must say I don't understand those who say he was a fascist at all. "Other" would be a better option, but certainly not fascist. Its obvious from his early control of Russia he had enough faith in communist ideals to destroy much of his country while trying to implement them.

[Goofball]

Gotta go with Redleg on this one. Stalin was definitely a Stalinist. Come on folks, how obvious could that one be?

It's just like Lou Gehrig dieing of Lou Gehrig's Disease. How the hell did his doctors not see that one coming?

[Xiahou]

It sure as hell is a worker's paradise--if you can get a job.

Well, you're hardly a worker if you don't have a job are you?

[Redleg]

Gotta go with Redleg on this one. Stalin was definitely a Stalinist. Come on folks, how obvious could that one be?

It's just like Lou Gehrig dieing of Lou Gehrig's Disease. How the hell did his doctors not see that one coming?

You can lead a horse to water but you can not always make them drink.

[King of Atlantis]

Stalin was a Fascist. He was a dictator. It seems that in the end though all communisms turm up being dictatorships.

[Steppe Merc]

I like the Stalinist idea.
He wasn't a true facist, but he was far closer to facism then communism, IMO. He wasn't even that socalist, really...

[PanzerJaeger]

How was he closer to fascism than communism? He implimented communist principles throughout his rule.

Being a dictator does not make one a fascist.