Open Letter

**Ser Clegane** · 07-22-2005, 14:17

Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

That doesn't seem quite right though. If a person says "I support extreme Nationalism, and a Government that is run according to the needs of Businesses" then that makes them a Fascist. It is wrong to consider this term an insult.

Depends on the context and the tone. Don't expect me do give you detailed rules when the usage of a term is allowed and when it violates the forum rules.

Often it is not just the word that constitutes the insult but the way it is used and the context it is used in.

You will be hard pressed to find a case in which a patron received a warning for calling another patron fascist when the latter basically said that he is one.

BTW, support of nationalism seems to be a bit weak of a reason to call somebody fascist and I am totally at loss what this

Government that is run according to the needs of Businesses

has to do with fascism

**Ser Clegane** · 07-22-2005, 14:23

Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

Read up on Fascism, it had nothing to do with exterminating Jews.

Thanks for this interesting revealation - I never knew

Again - according to which definition is "running a government according to the needs of businesses" fascism?

**Al Khalifah** · 07-22-2005, 14:30

I have to agree. Facism does not mean what many people believe it means. I would not have described Hitler as a facist - national socialist is definately a more appropriate term.

**nokhor** · 07-22-2005, 14:54

isn't that semantics though? arguing whether hitler was representing the original idealized version of fascism or not? i can't think of fascism without thinking of nazis, just as i can't think of communism without thinking of stalin, even though some might argue that stalin used communism as a prop for personal power and wasn't a true communist. same with the baathists and sadaam.

**PanzerJaeger** · 07-22-2005, 15:24

A few points.

-Thanks Ser Clegane for creating a new socialism thread, i look forward to reading through it and giving my opinions.

-My screename is what I use in all forums and games I happen to be active in. It is derived from my desire to use Panzer as a screen name because my grandfather commanded a PanzerIV in russia and the panzer corps is my favorite area of history. Of course Panzer is a pretty popular name, so I went with PanzerJäger as my grandfather commanded one of those for a brief time before he was given a place in the corps.

Panzerjäger is a military term and has no nazi affiliation, besides the fact that they were a part of the military when the nazis were in power. There were even, and still are I believe, panzerjägers in the german military after ww2. Its simply a generic term that means tank hunter (which would be a tank destroyer in anglo terms..ie a vehicle designed specifically to hunt and destroy enemy tanks, not give infantry support), just as panzer means tank.

Also my signature refers to the German military, not any nazi ideology. I think ive made my opinions about the difference between the two several times.

-Finally, I understand that my political beliefs along with my fascination with the German military is a volitile combination, that is why I didnt answer Stefan in my typical "you insult me, ill insult you back worse" manner.

Also, I dont go around and parade the fact that I identify myself with fascism around the forum. The only times Ive ever stated that have been in response to threads asking about your political views. I dont ever state them in public, no matter if Im in the USA or in Germany because there usually isnt a time or a place to sit down and explain my views.

I know Im skirting a fine line here, but thats just who I am. I hope ive separated my take on fascism from that of the nazis.

**Ser Clegane** · 07-22-2005, 15:33

Originally Posted by PanzerJager

and still are I believe, panzerjägers in the german military after ww2.

According to wikipedia the unit existed in the Bundeswehr until the mid-90s

**PanzerJaeger** · 07-22-2005, 16:15

Yea, i thought I had read where they were cut out, but wasnt sure.

**English assassin** · 07-22-2005, 22:13

As an American I find it offensive that you would consider censoring any political views at all. So what if someone opens up a thread saying DEATH TO ALL BLACKS/JEWS/MUSLIMS! and then follows it with three paragraphs of Fascist Rhetoric? Argue it intelligently--such ideas can't stand the test of reason. And Censorship is bad.

In a word, bollocks. You don't argue with racists, you don't argue with nazis, you treat them like the scum they are.

if that's what the org has become I'm off.

**Ser Clegane** · 07-22-2005, 22:19

Originally Posted by English assassin

if that's what the org has become I'm off.

Rest assured - it will not be the org's policy to allow such statements/threads.

Such a thread would be a blatant violation of the forum rules and would be treated accordingly.

**King Henry V** · 07-23-2005, 10:58

Originally Posted by R'as al Ghul

As a German I'd like to add a few comments.
I can understand Stefan's feelings towards Panzerjäger, I've thought so myself
but came to the conclusion that PJ isn't always serious when flirting with fascism.

As for the sentiments towards militarists that are fascinated with German WW2 troops,
that's quite a difficult topic for Germans. You've to understand that Germany doesn't
officially mourn the deaths of its own people during the war. We don't have memorials
for our fallen soldiers. All our compassion goes out to our enemies of WW2.

My grandparents live in Bavaria and I remember seeing memorials to those who had fallen in 1914-1918 and also in 1939-1945 in church yards.

**R'as al Ghul** · 07-24-2005, 10:50

Originally Posted by King Henry V

My grandparents live in Bavaria and I remember seeing memorials to those who had fallen in 1914-1918 and also in 1939-1945 in church yards.

You're right. I exaggerated a bit to make it more clear that the German
way of dealing with this part of the past is different from other cultures/ countries.
We do have a few memorials but only very few. It is a Taboo.
I'm sure you will also agree with me that WW1 is something different than WW2.
At least it is from a German perspective.

**Franconicus** · 07-25-2005, 07:58

Originally Posted by R'as al Ghul

You're right. I exaggerated a bit to make it more clear that the German
way of dealing with this part of the past is different from other cultures/ countries.
We do have a few memorials but only very few. It is a Taboo.
I'm sure you will also agree with me that WW1 is something different than WW2.
At least it is from a German perspective.

You are wrong. We have memorials in every town. Most were built after the German victory 1871 over France when the new state was formed. They were built to celebrate the German nation and the soldier who died for it. These memorials were changed after WW2 to remember the dead soldiers of the two WWs. There is even an official holiday to remember them (Volkstrauertag).

**R'as al Ghul** · 07-25-2005, 10:06

Originally Posted by Franconicus

You are wrong. We have memorials in every town. Most were built after the German victory 1871 over France when the new state was formed. They were built to celebrate the German nation and the soldier who died for it. These memorials were changed after WW2 to remember the dead soldiers of the two WWs. There is even an official holiday to remember them (Volkstrauertag).

What kind of memorials are you talking about?
We don't have memorials for fallen Wehrmacht soldiers in every town.
We do have memorials for fallen soldiers of WW1 but this is something different
because they aren't affiliated with Nazi-ideology.
We commemorate the victims of War and violence, this is true but in contrast to other countries
there is no explicit commemoration of the Wehrmacht soldiers.
The Volkstrauertag (see definition below) is in my opinion not explicitly for fallen soldiers.
Please provide an example of a memorial in NRW that explicitly remembers Wehrmacht or SS soldiers.
There're but a few and those are highly controversial.

Volkstrauertag ... was versteht man darunter?
In Deutschland gedenken wir an diesem Tag den Toten von Krieg und Gewaltherrschaft.

Nach Ende des 1. Weltkrieges regte der Volksbund an, einen nationalen Trauertag einzurichten. Der Volksbund ist zugleich Träger dieses Gedenktages.

1922 fand die erste Gedenkstunde im Reichstag statt. 1926 entschied man sich dann, den Volkstrauertag regelmäßig am 5. Sonntag vor Ostern, Reminiscere, zu begehen. 1933, nach der Machtübernahme durch die Nationalsozialisten, wurde aus dem "Volkstrauertag" der "Heldengedenktag". Die inhaltliche Bedeutung bezog sich nun auf die Verherrlichung der "Helden" und nicht mehr auf die Trauer um die Gefallenen. Im Jahre 1948 gelang es dem Volksbund die Tradition des Volkstrauertages in alter Form wieder aufzunehmen. Die erste zentrale Veranstaltung wurde zwei Jahre später im Plenarsaal des Bundestages in Bonn abgehalten. Um sich von der Tradition des "Heldengedenktages" abzusetzen, wurde 1952 entschlossen den Volkstrauertag künftig am 2. Sonntag vor dem 1. Advent zu begehen.

Diese Gedenkstunde bietet die Gelegenheit, öffentlich das Andenken an die Opfer von Krieg und Gewalt zu bewahren, im Erinnern an ihr Sterben geduldig für Frieden und Versöhnung zu werben und dieses Vermächtnis auch an die junge Generation weiterzugeben.

**Franconicus** · 07-25-2005, 10:55

I do not know how you do it in NRW. In Bavaria you have memorials in everytown. Even where I live - it has just some thousand inhab, must have been much smaler during WW2 - they have a small one. There is a plate with the names of all killed and missed soldiers from WW1 and 2. Often you find these´lists in the churchs.
Did you ever join a ceremony of Volkstrauertag. It is clearly directed to the killed soldiers of the two WWs.