Monotheism, Hatred and Despotism

[Cronos Impera]

I think that monotheism is some sort of religious despotism. The first 4 commandments of Moses illustrate this. Monotheistic religions promote an extremist view of the world ( good/evil), ( heaven/hell), (believers/pagans), ( corruption/purity).
These extreme words and ideas are the source of violence and discrimination as we know it. Sadly today many people try to model others to their beliefs using brutal and psychologically devastating means. Many preachers when trying to convert a group to their particular church act violently and threaten with hell and damnation . The human spirit is tragically manipulated to serve obscure radical groups. Now there are two worldwide groups ( extreme monotheist militants like Al'Quaeda, Neo-Nazi crap, radical mosaics in Gaza, Tamil Tigers in India and so on). On the other side we have MISA urine addicts, rebel hooligan groups and so on.
Will the twenty-first century world belong to the extremist or moderate groups? Will civilizations accept their differences or will the world become a bloody scene. Are religiose names dividing the world?
What is your opinion on this?

[Duke of Gloucester]

This argument might have some weight if you could demonstrate that all montheists more violent than others, or that no polytheists/atheists are violent. I don't think you can.

I also can't see how any of of the first 4 commandmants do what you say they do.

ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'

THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'

FOUR: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'

I can see exclusivity, so maybe believers/pagans, but I can't see the other absolutes you state - good/evil, heaven/hell, corruption/purity. Neither do I think these are exclusively monotheistic opposites.

[Al Khalifah]

Sadly today many people try to model others to their beliefs using brutal and psychologically devastating means.

Arguably by introducing democracy and western values in Iraq are we not doing the exact same thing? If your response to this would be, "but the system they had to start with was wrong" then consider:

promote an extremist view of the world ( good/evil)

[A.Saturnus]

I do think that monotheistic religions have a different sociocultural effect than other forms of believe. But you cannot link it to despotism. Most polytheistic cultures have seen despotism at least once. What is more likely under monotheism is that political rivalties might be linked to religion. If opponents have a different religion that is incombatible, that may be used as propaganda to create hatred against them. But that is not a fault of the religion itself, only of the people mislead in that way.

[Idaho]

Despotism is to do with economics. Economic base creates political superstructure.

Hunter gathers have loose tribal structure.

Early agrarians have fairly flat social structure with powerful preisthood/political class.

etc... the cultural impact of religion certainly gives it a flavour of it's own - but just a flavour.

[Cronos Impera]

1. The Catholic Church started an inquisition in the fourteenth century and butchered all who opposed the Church's control
2. Protestants discriminated catholic believers and under Cromwell in Ireland, catholics ware brutally persecuted
3. Orthodox communities fare no better ( remember the Yugoslav civil war)
4. Jewish extremists killed their own prime-minister ( Ytzak Rabin)
5. Islamic zealots are now bombing subways in London.
6. Sikh militants in India organized the Tamil tigers

Now, please give me a list of polytheist extremist radicals. The simple, one-eyed view that it's one truth and one god causes useless inter-ethnic frictions. In Christian, Mosaic, Muslim and Sikh beliefs people are taught to stubbornly cling to your truth and all other alternatives are wrong. Personally I don't mind sharing my country with radicals and don't give a damn about their truth. But often radical groups mind sharing the country with me. Can liberal-moderates coexist haply with one-eyed extremists.
And by the way, I'm not interested in the Iraq conflict. I think it's just another : hothead meats hothead conflict.

[Al Khalifah]

The Romans prior to Constantine followed a polithiest religion. They were often extremely intollerant of other religions and cultures, especially the Gauls and Christians.
The Egyptians used religion as an excuse to enslave the Israelites.

And by the way, I'm not interested in the Iraq conflict. I think it's just another : hothead meats hothead conflict.

But as I pointed out, it provides an example to the other side of a coin. It involves one group of people trying to stamp their own set of values on another set of people through violent means.

[A.Saturnus]

The Aztec wrought war on their neighbours, not for territory but to gain human sacrifices. They needed so many that otherwise it would have drained their population.
Their faith played a role in the Vikings` strife.
Polytheistic religions may be less intolerant of other believes, but their followers aren`t necessary less brutal.
Secular ideas haven`t had all peaceful consequences either.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

Hindus, much as I love them, have a history of being vicious bastards too.

[Lazul]

whats is intresting when looking deep into a conflict is to ask, Did they fight For the God? or pray to the God couse there was War?

The Crusades were fought becouse of the God, in the name of God.

Viking prayed to Tyr or Oden (Odin) couse there was War. War for the vikings was a natural part of life just as eating, in a polytheistic society usually a God of War emerges.

In the crusader case the monotheistic god is there either way, war or no war.

[sharrukin]

Have you actually read the history of Indochina, Japan, India, and China? They are polytheistic societies but on very rare occasions they do sometimes get into heated debates.

A horrifying report by UK based "Dalit Atrocity Committee of 1992 reveals that in October 1992 in village Kumber (Rajisthan), over 6000 upper caste Hindus from 45 villages gathered at a Chaumanda Devi temple with the intention to teach them (Dalits) a lesson. These included politicians and a superintendent of police. Armed with weapons they killed 60 Dalits in a Dalit village. They used soaked rags with petrol and burnt them alive besides demolishing their houses. They gang-raped women and mutilated their genitals. Recently in Jul 97, upper caste police shot dead 10 Dalits in Ramabai, Ambedkar colony at Ghatkopar, Bombay, and wounded several others.

[Lazul]

sharrukin do you mean me?

I wasnt trying to defend either polytheistic societies nor monotheistic. I despise both more or less.

[Al Khalifah]

Secular societies are also perfectly capable of spawning despots, genocides, hatred and attrocities

Oh to name but a few: Iraq, Nazi Germany, The Soviet Union, The Qin Kingdom...

Perhaps people are just vicious monsters.

[Colovion]

it's merely man's need to have both fellowship with his fellows and having weak personal resolve. People are easily influenced and once they are influenced their resolve is built upon by positive feedback by their environment, their society and their leadership.

[PanzerJaeger]

Erm.. more "religion is the reason for all our problems bs".

The Soviet Union which abolished all religion was responsible for the most self destructive and horrible atrocities and genocides ever in human history.

(Dont believe everything your professor tells you. )

[sharrukin]

sharrukin do you mean me?

I wasnt trying to defend either polytheistic societies nor monotheistic. I despise both more or less.

No, not at all.

I was simply pointing out that polytheistic societies can be just as savage as monotheistic one's, and secular societies are even worse, as you have demonstrated.

[Meneldil]

Erm.. more "religion is the reason for all our problems bs".

The Soviet Union which abolished all religion was responsible for the most self destructive and horrible atrocities and genocides ever in human history.

(Dont believe everything your professor tells you. )

Quite frankly, 30's fascism and communism were quite similar to any religion.
On the one hand, I'd like to think that world would have been a way better place without religion, but on the other hand, I'm fairly sure we would have found another reason to kill ourselves.

[Colovion]

Quite frankly, 30's fascism and communism were quite similar to any religion.
On the one hand, I'd like to think that world would have been a way better place without religion, but on the other hand, I'm fairly sure we would have found another reason to kill ourselves.

religion is essentially another exclusive club which humans attach themselves to to give their mental state a sense of superiority to those who aren't involved in practices or learning that they are. Think about it - when you know something that someone else doesn't know then you have a sense of mental superiority over them. It isn't a concious attribute but more of an unconcious thing. When Communism and any form of Nationalism arrises in society it becomes a "either you're with me or against me" ideal structure where anyone outside the circle may feel alienated and those inside it grow in their beliefs and practices through eachother's fellowship.

It's not that Religion in itself is a problem, it's merely man's ability to find unlimited ways to pretend that he is superior that his neighbors. Once again, not a concious choice - but it usually isn't someone's concious choice to improve themselves or their surroundings, it seems to be a part of human nature to do such things - even to the detriment to their environment and their fellow humans.

[GoreBag]

Now, please give me a list of polytheist extremist radicals.

Well, there are few polytheists left, compared to monotheists, but the church burnings of Norway in the 90's come to mind.

[Quietus]

Remember: choice is an illusion. Humans have two basic functions: Survival and Reproduction.

It doesn't matter how many ice cream flavors or variety of entrees in front of the buffet table. It's still food. And you must eat.

It doesn't matter how many 'gorgeous chicks' or 'hot studs' are there. It's all for reproduction.

Now, if you are a homosexual, then that a biological defect. The problem solves itself, no dna will ever be passed.

Now, if you are a suicide bomber, that's another thing. People are being misinformed and misguided. They are told of a choice that's in reality unattainable.

They are promised an 'eternal life'. To a believer, that's 'trading up'. It plays on your Survival function and instinct. Sure, you are dead but you'll live in 'heaven' forever. Hence, you will survive forever.

That's the problem there, there's no 'heaven' at all.

[Colovion]

oh Quietus, you can't prove there's no heaven. Sure there might not be an eternal "resting place" but... new thread

[Azi Tohak]

What a sad, lonely way to live your life. Not believing in anything greater than yourself. Why do you wake up every morning? Why are we here?

I am still debating whether or not what I heard once, “religion is man’s greatest invention” is true or not. I pray, I believe in God…but I still struggle with that.

But if there is no God(s), then are we merely here to satisfy our own selfish desires? Are we here to raise others up? Are we here to live peacefully?

Religion can give us a purpose in life. Any religion can do that. But the problems arise when trusted leaders (Popes, Priests, Preachers, Mullahs, Rabbis and whatever the eastern religions have) begin to desire power. That is when the religious message is corrupted and brought to such lows as anti-abortion terrorism and suicide bombing, or church burning and lynch mobs.

Ultimately religion can be used, by anyone to justify anything. We all know that Christian churches did and they still do. But let us not be so self-loathing as to think it is only Christianity that does this. All the Big 3 western have been used to promote hatred. And yes, so have the eastern religions.

It is not the religions fault that people kill each other in its name. Religion exists to (depending on your viewpoint):

1. Give hope to the weak
2. Give a guide line for how to live your life better
3. Give false hope to the stupid and desperate
4. Give the path to ‘truth’ to us poor feeble humans

And no Cronos Impera, the first four commandments were NOT the start of violence and discrimination. China, without any real influence by any of the Abrahams descendants was quite capable of obliterating anything that stood in the way of its juggernaut. So was Persia. And Greece. And Rome. And the Mongols. And the Vikings. Do I really need to go on? Maybe Moses came up with those laws to keep the Hebrews subservient. Maybe God really did speak to him on Mt. Sinai. But do not blame all the worlds’ problems today on the 10 commandments. The problems we face today have roots far beyond the start of Judaism.

Azi

[Al Khalifah]

To quote Morpheus (from DE):

The human being created civilization not because of a willingness but because of a need to be assimilated into higher orders of structure and meaning.
God and the gods were apparitions of observation, judgment, and punishment. Other sentiments toward them were secondary.

[antisocialmunky]

I don't think that you should group the actions of people with the ideas they represent. The greatest ideals that men have made are squandered by men themselves. If there was never a catholic church, would people still kill, mame, or otherwise harm one another?

Yes they would.

It is man, not the organization that they hide behind nor the geopolitical climate they opporate in. For the past 6000 years of human history. People have not changed, they have just found better ways of doing the same thing.

Take the teaching of Jesus. Compare them to the organizations that claim to represent them. Do they give fair representation? Does not the Koran encourage peace?

Take government, government is formed by the people to serve the people, is it so?

People corrupt ideas, plain and simple. However, not all people are so base.

Does President Bush fairly represent America? Does Osama bin Laden represent Islam?


To put it simply. If everyone had a chance to be a god, how many would be responsible with the power? A great majority or a simple minority? I think history shows and shows well what the answer is.

Even the Bible states plainly at Eccl. 8:9: "Man has dominated man to his injury." and advocate God's Kingdom, a government not by man, but by God as the only viable solution for peace:

Isa. 9:6, 7, RS: "To us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government [also KJ, AT, Dy; "dominion," JB, NE; "princely rule," NW] will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called 'Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.' Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end."

Dan. 2:44: "In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite."

Ps. 2:8, 9: "Ask of me, that I may give nations as your inheritance and the ends of the earth as your own possession. You will break them with an iron scepter, as though a potter's vessel you will dash them to pieces."

[Azi Tohak]

Nicely done antisocialmunky.

Azi

[antisocialmunky]

Thankee.

By the way, you're the second Kansan I've noticed on this board.

[Azi Tohak]

Yup yup. I think the others name is Geezer57 (maybe). Not related (as far as I know) but he is from Wichita, where my mom and sister are.

Actually...I have seen more Kansans than Canadians...humm....

But then of course there are all the Brits, which seem to be the largest single group here. Makes sense though. Most other Americans are too busy drinking and playing with our guns to read forums

Speaking of which...time for a beer and a .22!

Azi