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Thread: Mending Morality

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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Mending Morality

    July 22, 2005, 8:31 a.m.
    Mending Morality
    Where do we stand? What comes next?

    By Rick Santorum

    EDITOR'S NOTE: This is the fifth in a series of five excerpts from It Takes a Family, by Sen. Rick Santorum. Together they comprise chapter 23, “The Rule of Judges.”

    Now that we know where it started, where are we now? You may recall my comments, widely reported in the press, about the Lawrence v. Texas case, in which the petitioner was seeking to strike down the Texas sodomy statute as unconstitutional. Before that decision, I made the comment to a reporter that this decision had the potential to further expand the right to “privacy” with devastating consequences. This is how she reported this often-repeated quote of mine:

    And if the Supreme Court says that you have the right to consensual (gay) sex within your home, then you have the right to bigamy, you have the right to polygamy, you have the right to incest, you have the right to adultery. You have the right to anything.


    The reporter inserted the word “gay” into the first sentence. This led to claims that I was comparing homosexuality with incest and polygamy, which I was not. What I was saying takes more than a sound bite to explain and that makes it tough for some reporters, and the media in general, to grasp.

    First, we have to look at the state of the law before Lawrence was decided. I discussed the Griswold case above and the right of privacy that it eventually created. With respect to sexual conduct, not abortion, the Court had recognized a zone of privacy around marriage. In other words, married people were treated differently under the law with respect to their sexual activity with one another than unmarried people. In its left-handed way, the Court in Griswold gave deference to marriage between one man and one woman as the building block for society and the legitimate purpose for sexual activity and thereby protected it from state regulation. Eisenstadt began to change all that, however, and this transformation of our constitutional traditions continued with Roe and Casey.

    What I feared the Court would do in Lawrence in striking down the Texas sodomy statute is finally and completely eliminate marriage as a privileged institution in our laws and simply expand the zone of privacy in sexual conduct to all consenting adults. That is exactly what they did: Marriage has now completely lost its special place in the law. The Court said in effect that marriage has not only outlived its legal usefulness, it said it is discriminatory to treat people differently based on such an outdated social construct. Therefore, over the past generation, it has decided to change the zone of sexual “privacy” from one man and one woman in marriage to consenting adults, period. So, to paraphrase my own quote above: If consent is now the only standard to have your sexual behavior protected by the Constitution, then how can the Court prohibit any consensual sexual behavior among two, three, or more people? The answer is logically, judicially, that you cannot — for other than arbitrary reasons. That is why there have already been several cases filed by polygamists seeking similar constitutional protection on the basis of Lawrence.

    It is also no coincidence that within a few months of the Lawrence decision, the Massachusetts state supreme court handed down the Goodrich decision, which established in that state a constitutional right to same-sex marriage. And what was the first and most often cited case it used in coming to its decision? You guessed it: Lawrence v. Texas. The village elders on the Massachusetts court reasoned that the Commonwealth of Massachusetts could not discriminate against people simply because they were exercising their constitutional rights. They went so far as to say that there is no “rational basis” for treating heterosexual unions differently from same-sex relationships: The only conceivable reason for barring same-sex couples from state-sanctioned marriage had to be “animus” — hatred. That’s right, the Massachusetts court said the only reason you could possibly want to protect the sacred institution at the core of every civilization in history is because you are a bigot. Welcome to village legal scholarship.

    As for a Moral Impact Statement to determine the extent of damage such a fundamental change would cause: none. The court in Massachusetts ordered no studies or hearings. It simply, by undemocratic, authoritarian brute force, told the people of Massachusetts that marriage as we all know it is over. In fact, it declared that anyone who holds to the traditional definition of marriage is “irrational,” since there is no “rational basis” for the traditional view.

    And what do the village elders in Congress today say to all of this? What do the liberals who have never met an issue that didn’t need “solving” by legislation say about the role of Congress? They say, “It’s a state issue: they can handle it.” Or they say, “It’s a judicial issue: they can handle it.” Let me translate: “We can’t come out in favor of same-sex marriage since it is too unpopular. So let’s let the unelected judges on the state and eventually federal courts do the dirty work for us.” The fact is, I could substitute the words “in the 1960s” for the word “today” in the first sentence, and the word “abortion” for the words “same-sex marriage” in the previous sentence, and you now see the strategy laid bare. This calculated plan is undemocratic, it’s an abuse of power, it savages the moral ecosystem in this country — and it worked once and is working again.

    The good news is that while it is rare, Supreme Court decisions are sometimes overturned. We are now only a little more than thirty years on from Roe v. Wade. But it took more than sixty years for the “separate but equal” ruling of Plessy v. Ferguson to be overturned by Brown v. Board of Education. It took thirty years for the ruling in Lochner v. New York to be overturned. It can be done. Just like the health of the Great Lakes and the rivers of Ohio returned, so too, I believe, can our moral ecosystem right itself. All we need is leadership that understands the gravity of the problem and is determined to do something about it. And that is why disputes over nominations for federal judgeships will continue to be among the most bitterly contested matters in the U.S. Senate.

    — Senator Rick Santorum is the junior United States senator from Pennsylvania. Chairman of the Senate Republican Conference, he is the third-highest-ranking Republican in the U.S. Senate
    That’s right, the Massachusetts court said the only reason you could possibly want to protect the sacred institution at the core of every civilization in history is because you are a bigot. Welcome to village legal scholarship.
    Fighting for Truth , Justice and the American way

  2. #2
    Member Member Azi Tohak's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mending Morality

    With the liberal control of too much of the country, you know as well as I do, that if you dare to disagree with our intellectual superiors (you know, the Democrats) you are branded racist or bigot. There is no more dangerous word in our language than racist. You can destroy a man calling him that.

    Remember ‘niggardly?’

    But the hell of it is, there is no need for proof. All someone has to do is make the claim. Anyone else remember the witch trials?

    Azi

    P.S. Thanks Gawain for giving me something to read this morning
    "If you don't want to work, become a reporter. That awful power, the public opinion of the nation, was created by a horde of self-complacent simpletons who failed at ditch digging and shoemaking and fetched up journalism on their way to the poorhouse."
    Mark Twain 1881

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    Default Re: Mending Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Azi Tohak
    With the liberal control of too much of the country, you know as well as I do, that if you dare to disagree with our intellectual superiors (you know, the Democrats) you are branded racist or bigot. There is no more dangerous word in our language than racist. You can destroy a man calling him that.


    no.....pedophile is the most dangerous word....recently a guy was put on the sex offenders list because a little girl jumped in front of his car and he got out grabbed her by the arm and told her never to do that again. Now his life is ruined
    Formerly ceasar010

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    Member Member Azi Tohak's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mending Morality

    Gah. Touche ceasar010. I did not know about that one.

    Azi
    "If you don't want to work, become a reporter. That awful power, the public opinion of the nation, was created by a horde of self-complacent simpletons who failed at ditch digging and shoemaking and fetched up journalism on their way to the poorhouse."
    Mark Twain 1881

  5. #5

    Default Re: Mending Morality

    Wait a minute i forgot to put a post on topic too while was here. I dont get why the gay thing is such a issue any more alot of states got to vote on it the election people said no and thats final.


    edit was touche mean I looked in the dictonary and it said somthing about french people???? did you mean touch??
    Last edited by scooter_the_shooter; 07-23-2005 at 16:42.
    Formerly ceasar010

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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mending Morality

    was touche mean I looked in the dictonary and it said somthing about french people???? did you mean touch??
    No he meant what he said. It means good counter attack.. Its a fencing term I believe
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    Member Member Azi Tohak's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mending Morality

    Sorry ceasar010, it is not touch (kind of spooky since we were talking about pedophiles).

    It is a fencing term (complement) for a good move. Like a parry. Maybe chess would work better. Say I have you in check. I might say touche (too-shay) if you move something in between to both break the check and attack my piece (queen, rook whatever).

    I hope that helps...

    And about the gay marriage thing...well...yes, many people have said no. I personally am in favour of it, and the media will continue to hammer us bigots (I am a bigot for other reasons, namely being a white male who is not self loathing) until it is accepted.

    Azi
    "If you don't want to work, become a reporter. That awful power, the public opinion of the nation, was created by a horde of self-complacent simpletons who failed at ditch digging and shoemaking and fetched up journalism on their way to the poorhouse."
    Mark Twain 1881

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    Member Member Phatose's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mending Morality

    I'm sure going to enjoy not voting for this guy again.

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    |LGA.3rd|General Clausewitz Member Kaiser of Arabia's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mending Morality

    I'm so going to enjoy voting for this guy (but not again, being as I can't vote).

    Why do you hate Freedom?
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    Standing Up For Rationality Senior Member Ronin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mending Morality

    this guy as obviously embraced being a moron as a profession.
    "If given the choice to be the shepherd or the sheep... be the wolf"
    -Josh Homme
    "That's the difference between me and the rest of the world! Happiness isn't good enough for me! I demand euphoria!"
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    Default Re: Mending Morality

    And if the Supreme Court says that you have the right to consensual (gay) sex within your home, then you have the right to bigamy, you have the right to polygamy, you have the right to incest, you have the right to adultery.
    And so you do. I fail to see the problem.

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    Scruffy Looking Nerf Herder Member Steppe Merc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mending Morality

    What right do the courts have to make any sort of moral judgement? Or any politician?

    "But if you should fall you fall alone,
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    Member Member Alexander the Pretty Good's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mending Morality

    What right do the courts have to make any sort of moral judgement? Or any politician?
    That's an interesting question. Justices are supposed to render verdicts based on the law, not their personal convictions or moral judgements. Politicians in a decocratic republic like the US of A are granted the right to make moral judgements and apply them to the area they represent because they are elected by that area.

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    Don't worry, I don't exist Member King of Atlantis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mending Morality

    can safely tell you that most people who support gay marriage want to vomit at the thought of Beastiality
    This is what i fail to understand. Many scientist are no saying that being Gay is genetic and gay people/supporters say they cant help being Gay cause it is just who they are. If such can be said of Homosexuality couldn't it be the exact same thing for Beastiality?

    Sorry for going off topic, but i just dont get this and would somebody to explain this to me.

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    Don't worry, I don't exist Member King of Atlantis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mending Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
    Maybe I'm just being a bigot right now, but I have no answer for this other than the idea of someone doing their pet just grosses me out. It seems like abusing the animal, to me.
    doing their pet grosses me out alot to, but the same goes for a dude doing a dude. I think if we accept one sexual divergance then we have to accept them all.

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    Member Member Azi Tohak's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mending Morality

    Why? If two consenting adult men or women want to enjoy that, what gives us the right to stop them? So we find gay men sex repugnant, so be it. I daresay lesbians hold a certain...interest for many men. But many women I am sure feel that is just as disgusting as we think men sex is.

    However, if they are abusing animals or children, then that is abuse and should be treated as such. That is what I don't understand is the 'slippery slope' (aside from being a grotesque metaphor). Sex with adults will never be equivalent to abusing children or animals.

    And Ronin, of course he is a moron for a profession. He is a politician afterall

    Azi
    "If you don't want to work, become a reporter. That awful power, the public opinion of the nation, was created by a horde of self-complacent simpletons who failed at ditch digging and shoemaking and fetched up journalism on their way to the poorhouse."
    Mark Twain 1881

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    Don't worry, I don't exist Member King of Atlantis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mending Morality

    What if the animal enjoyed it. I know my friends dog tries to hump anybody in site. He even left a stain on my friends pants, which was funny to me, but certainly not my friend.

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    Don't worry, I don't exist Member King of Atlantis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mending Morality

    But, what i dont get is this. People are always talking about acceptance, but the same people dont accept incest, beastilality etc..

    Just for the record im against gay marriage, but i think if you pass that you have to pass the rest.

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    Don't worry, I don't exist Member King of Atlantis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mending Morality

    What about gay incest. I just find it odd that people accept one group yet detest antoher. But, whatever you explained some reasoning behind it and ill just accept that.

    Sorry if this thread went out of topic.


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    Member Member bmolsson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mending Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by ceasar010
    no.....pedophile is the most dangerous word....recently a guy was put on the sex offenders list because a little girl jumped in front of his car and he got out grabbed her by the arm and told her never to do that again. Now his life is ruined
    It's even more dangerous to run in a British subway.....

  21. #21
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mending Morality

    However, if they are abusing animals or children, then that is abuse and should be treated as such. That is what I don't understand is the 'slippery slope' (aside from being a grotesque metaphor). Sex with adults will never be equivalent to abusing children or animals.
    Weve been over this before. Since when do you need an animals consent to do anything to it? Mr pig you dont mind if I slaughter and eat you now do you? Mr horse would you care to take me down to the store? Its abusing children because we say it is. Again many states and nations have a different idea of whats considered underage. People used to get married at 9 or 10 just ask Mohamed.

    As for Incest--that can cause harm to the gene pool.
    Not really. Our gene pool is so mixed now it would take a few generations of inter marrige for nasty things to start happening.

    Gay Sex is between two consenting adults, it doesn't hurt anyone necesarrily. As repugnant as I find the act, there is just no reason to outlaw it IMO.
    I would think anything of any decent size would hurt being inserted in ones anus Besides that theres all the emotional and deseases to worry about.

    This pretty much sums it up

    Originally Posted by King of Atlantis
    This is what i fail to understand. Many scientist are no saying that being Gay is genetic and gay people/supporters say they cant help being Gay cause it is just who they are. If such can be said of Homosexuality couldn't it be the exact same thing for Beastiality?
    This is the slippery slope. You cant just accept gay marriage and say the others are not allowed.Your using the same argument to oppose these as others do to oppose gay marriage.
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    Scruffy Looking Nerf Herder Member Steppe Merc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mending Morality

    If you have sex with an animal, it's rape. Simple as that, and the person is very sick, and should be locked up for the rest of their life.

    Animal sex and all that other sick stuff has nothing to do with gay marriage, and just because we accept gay sex, it doesn't mean that we have to accept everything. That's just silly, IMO.

    That's an interesting question. Justices are supposed to render verdicts based on the law, not their personal convictions or moral judgements. Politicians in a decocratic republic like the US of A are granted the right to make moral judgements and apply them to the area they represent because they are elected by that area.
    Thanks for the answer. However, I still think it's wrong that any politician can make a moral judgement, even though he was elected.

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    Don't worry, I don't exist Member King of Atlantis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mending Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    This is the slippery slope. You cant just accept gay marriage and say the others are not allowed.Your using the same argument to oppose these as others do to oppose gay marriage.
    I dont get this. Thats what i have been saying the whole time. Are you agreeing with me?

  24. #24

    Default Re: Mending Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Steppe Merc

    Thanks for the answer. However, I still think it's wrong that any politician can make a moral judgement, even though he was elected.

    Then we would get no where. Some think letting gays get married is moral some do not.

    Some think guns are a moral tool some do not.

    Some think abortion is immoral some do not.

    etc


    If we did that steppe we wouldn't get anywhere.
    Formerly ceasar010

  25. #25
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mending Morality

    I dont get this. Thats what i have been saying the whole time. Are you agreeing with me?
    Didnt I post this first?

    Originally Posted by King of Atlantis
    This is what i fail to understand. Many scientist are no saying that being Gay is genetic and gay people/supporters say they cant help being Gay cause it is just who they are. If such can be said of Homosexuality couldn't it be the exact same thing for Beastiality?
    Your damn straight Im agreeing with you.(pun, pun)The only real reason any of them have for the others not being allowed is they think its wrong. Who are we to decide whats right for others? Thats their mantra isnt it?
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    Don't worry, I don't exist Member King of Atlantis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mending Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    Your damn straight Im agreeing with you.(pun, pun)The only real reason any of them have for the others not being allowed is they think its wrong. Who are we to decide whats right for others? Thats their mantra isnt it?

    Yah i thought you were agreeing with me, but your post that i quoted was confused from your wording.

    Im glad there is a subject we agree on.It is much easier to agree with you Gawain.

  27. #27
    Member Member Alexander the Pretty Good's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mending Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Steppe Merc
    However, I still think it's wrong that any politician can make a moral judgement, even though he was elected.
    How are you defining a "moral judgement," Steppe? I would argue that someone pushing for a law to give homeless people free housing is making a moral judgement: that it is morally wrong to allow people to go homeless. So you disagree with such a desicion?

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