NEWS: Police shot the wrong man in Stockwell.

[Efrem]

If thats too me, then its retared as I ain't conservative in the slightest. I am 100% pro choice.

[ICantSpellDawg]

If thats too me, then its retared as I ain't conservative in the slightest. I am 100% pro choice.

Wow, I now feel ignorant that I am a conservative.

[Efrem]

*retarded

Btw, Jag what would you have done if you were one of the police officers?

[barocca]

I said at the time it seemed in cold blood and hasty, I never imagined the guy was no way near connected, merely just not a suicide bomber. This really is dissapointing. Bad form police.

beg pardon Jag,
but the dude was wearing a thick jacket in warm weather,
he had just left a suspected terrorists house,
when he entered the tube train police challenged him to stop,
he ran, vaulted the ticket barrier and charged onto a tube train.

This the day after 4 devices failed to explode.

the police had 2 choices
1. wait for him at the next station, and maybe the train does not get blown up,
2. go for a central nervous system shutdown so he could not trigger a device,

so they shot him, in the head which is an instant nervous system shutdown.

and as you would know if you have ever fired a semi-automatic weapon 5 shots takes but a moment to unload.

The Police did what was needed under the conditions.


Once again peoples, having been in 3 bombings in the 70's in and around London, I have no sympathy for such people,

and absolutely no sympathy for idiots - which that Brazillian obviously was,
why the heck did he not stop when challenged?

EDIT - by the way, according to his FAMILY he spoke PERFECT english, they do not understand why he would fail to stop.
B.

[JAG]

Where does this 'warm weather' come from? It was miserable on the day he was shot. Cloudy, overcast and drizzly.

[barocca]

and to kill the obvious response "but they had overpowered him"

yeah sure, they had knocked him down but when you are holding a detonation trigger in your hot little hand all you got to do is press the button,
the ONLY way to stop someone doing that is shut down his nervous system.

B.

[barocca]

the warm weather comes from the news reports,

and if you are going to say "dont believe the news"

well thenm, why should i now believe news reports he had nothing to do with it?

B.

[barocca]

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/image...ckwell_203.jpg

just in case remote linking fails,

here's the police cordon around the station - see the fruit and veg vendor??
Raining my big fat behind,
he has his rain cover DOWN dude.

B.

edit - and not a brolly in sight

[barocca]

here's the crowd in the park over the road,
no brollies there either

[rasoforos]

The guy comes from a country with extremely high unprovoced murder rates.

In addition, some police departments there sometimes just go into a slum neighbourhood and start shooting people they dont like in cold blood for no reason.

Its possible the guy couldnt even speak english properly.

As a result its possible he didnt notice its the police, especially if they were in civilian clothes or if someone was too fast to pull a gun.





I wont criticise the police AT ALL. Its not their fault, they didnt put us into this mess. Its that pompous arrogant %$^&*% of a prime minister who put us all into this chaos. And what did the UK earn? Alies were allienated , the economy now suffers,the city is affected as a financial centre, we practically HAVE to live with the fear of terrorists. For nothing...

If [] George Bush means so much to him he should resign from PM, move to the white house, and they can live happilly ever after! He should resign and leave us alone.




But of course we know him well dont we? He ll smile like a demented granny and will tell us how we should push forward and how determined we should be and all that nonsence.

[JAG]

here's the crowd in the park over the road,
no brollies there either

Thank you! You just proved my point. See how many have heavy jackets and coats on? See how overcast it is? Did you watch the cricket at Lords as well? was just as overcast in South London as it was at Lords. It was NOT out of the ordinary for this guy to have a jacket on, it wasn't a very hot day.

[Proletariat]

So sorry, JAG.

[Productivity]

I would suggest using a bit more quantifiable form of evidence barocca. http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/education/archive/uk/

From a quick scan it appears that yes, it was not raining. But it wasn't particularly warm either. It was not like he was wearing a great coat on a 40 degrees day.

[JAG]

Cheers DGB, I was tryign to find that page but couldn;t locate it.

South-east England
Friday 22 July, 2005 09:00 GMT


Andrewsfield No data
Benson NW Overcast
Boscombe Down Mostly Cloudy
Bournemouth Partly Cloudy
Heathrow Mostly Cloudy
Herstmonceux Mostly Cloudy
Manston Rain showers
Middle Wallop Overcast
Northolt Mostly Cloudy
Odiham Mostly Cloudy
Redhill No data
Shoeburyness No data
Solent (MRSC)Partly Cloudy

[JAG]

Original post has been edited by poster (Ser Clegane)

Nice remarks.

[Efrem]

Since when is it a crime to wear a coat on a hot day, in any case? I have a Leather Jacket--nothing special, just a plain old black leather jacket--that i've had for as long as I can remember. I simply don't wear anything else when I go out abroad, even when it's hot, just out of habit. Is it okay to shoot me now?

Notice how these cops were not in uniform, by the way. Does the man know english? Did the cops say they were cops? Did he think he was being attacked by armed criminals?

He was wearing a large coat on a hot day (and thats according to eye witnesses) which is often used to hide explosives and defintly a reason to arise suspicion.

Yes his family have announced he spoke perfect English.

The cops most certainly said they were cops, I believe the words were "stop police".

It is possible he thought he was being attacked by armed criminials, it is the only explanation for his irrational behaviour I can think of.

So, if you were wearing a thick coat on a hot day, and ran into a subway station that has been the target of multiple terrorist attacks in recent times, refused to stop when asked by police and headed for a crowded carriage, then yes its ok to shoot you.

[barocca]

i was born in the uk,
since when has 17 degrees with a 4 knot wind been cold and miserable?

it is 16 degrees outside right now, the wind is 5 knots right NOW
it is overcast RIGHT NOW
it is 6:15 pm, sunset was about 45 minutes ago
- t-shirt's and shorts are what peeps are wearing at the shops opposite my house right this minute.

he SPOKE PERFECT ENGLISH - try reading all the posts, or better yet go and look for the interviews with his family on the internet.

He has lived in the UK for three years,
if he does not know by now that the UK police do not ride around wasting people for fun ... well that might also explain why he ran into a tube station and onto a train the day after a terrorist attack on the subway system.


they hit him in the head, yet you claim they missed??
sorry you are totally wrong,
had to be said,
if you want someone to stop thinking you take away their brain - shoot them in the head.
and i ALREADY said that in a previous post - once again people GO READ EVERYTHING before you make a fool out of yourselves.

you claim it was raining and miserable,
i show a couple of photo's with not a drop of rain or a brolly in sight,
you say that proves your point?
yeah right, maybe on some fantasy planet
if it was raining and miserable, as you claimed, then people should have had brolly's, anoracks - that sort of thing, there should also be water on the ground,
17 degrees is heavy coat weather?? dont make me laugh,
how stupid do you think the rest of us are Jag?

here is yet another shot
see all the short sleeves,


B.

[Ser Clegane]

I am sure that there will be a very thorough investigation of the circumstances around this shooting.

Until that is done we should be very careful with throwing around accusations of any kind - unlike the policemen in this case we do not have to decide on the spot, we have the luxury of taking time and looking deeper into this case - time we should better take.

Unfortunately, this case might exactly be what the terrorists wanted - a sign of an atmosphere of mistrust and fear. Let's hope that this tragedy will be an exception.


One remark on the weather - a guy from Brazil might indeed consider 17°C not to be particulartly warm (but then - that's not necessarily what you consider in such a situation)

[JAG]

Unfortunately, this case might exactly be what the terrorists wanted - a sign of an atmosphere of mistrust and fear. Let's hope that this tragedy will be an exception.

In that regard I fear you are completely correct. A chance for another propaganda victory and more importantly they know they are making us twitch, for all the 'show no fear' remarks we are hearing from the media, we are getting jumpy.

[bmolsson]

First, its always a tragedy when somebody dies. Everyone that have an attitude on this would surely have a different view if your dad, brother or son was shot dead because he was afraid and runned off from a band of cops.

Second, as long as the police make an inquiry, take it seriously and prosecute if any wrongdoing has been made, I can't see any actual problems. Guns always create situations where somebody dies. Also, if found guilty, a police officer should receive a less sentence than a civilian, we have to recognise their role in society.

Third, this is EXACTLY what the terrorist what to happen.

I feel for the innocent mans family as well as for the police man that pulled the trigger. This can't be good at all......

[Ja'chyra]

Nice, condemn the police on some half arsed newspaper reporters say so, sometimes you go too far JAG and I hope you never have people's lives depending on you.

I would say it was a fair call at the time, with hindsight they might have reacted differently but their goal is to protect lives and if that means that 1 has to die to save hundreds then so be it.

[Duke of Gloucester]

I am not going to make a judgement until I hear the results of the enquiry. Unfortunately this is a victory for the terrorists, and whether or not the police should have acted differently, this is definitely a viotory for the terrorists.

......if that means that 1 has to die to save hundreds then so be it.

Do you really mean this? If you mean that sometimes mistakes will be made and that suicide bombers make it difficult for the police and they have to make split second decisions, then I would agree, but if you mean that it is ok to kill an innocent person to save others, then I would have to disagree totally. This principle could be used to justify all sorts of appalling behaviour by the state.

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

In all honestly, I don't care if the police's action was understandable, or whatever. They killed someone that was innocent, they have to face prosecution. If you kill someone by accident in a car, you still have to pay.
Police should be held even closer to the letter of the law than civilians, IMO.

If you kill someone in an accident in a car when you have done nothing wrong, you won't be punished-it's an accident, see.

This is the same kind of thing. The police really did have no choice in this matter-the guy was fleeing into a tube station, when asked to stop by them, the day after the terrorist attacks. Whatever reason he had for doing this doesn't excuse the fact that he did, and the police responded accordingly.

[Efrem]

I'd love you to enlighten me Jag, what would you have done in the police's position???

What could they possibly have done differently???

[Tribesman]

What could they possibly have done differently???
Well for starters they could have had the right house/person under surveillance , then as they were after suspected suicide bombers who are attacking train stations then they should have had officers in place ahead of the "suspect" at the train station so he couldn't have entered it .
If they have a suspect under observation and a possible target just down the road then it was grossly incompetant not to have officers in place to stop the person reaching the target .
Chasing someone does not stop them getting somewhere , being between them and where they are going stops them getting there .
A lack of co-ordination is clearly evident .

[Ja'chyra]

What could they possibly have done differently???
Well for starters they could have had the right house/person under surveillance , then as they were after suspected suicide bombers who are attacking train stations then they should have had officers in place ahead of the "suspect" at the train station so he couldn't have entered it .
If they have a suspect under observation and a possible target just down the road then it was grossly incompetant not to have officers in place to stop the person reaching the target .
Chasing someone does not stop them getting somewhere , being between them and where they are going stops them getting there .
A lack of co-ordination is clearly evident .

Woah there bud, ain't hindsight wonderful?

Unless he started in a dead end there was two directions he could have went and every street or alley passed adds more directions, and maybe they were following for a reason like to see where he went and who he spoke to.

It's easy to criticise others actions, but unless you were the person making the decision then whatever you think doesn't really matter and it's all speculation.

Do you really mean this? If you mean that sometimes mistakes will be made and that suicide bombers make it difficult for the police and they have to make split second decisions, then I would agree, but if you mean that it is ok to kill an innocent person to save others, then I would have to disagree totally. This principle could be used to justify all sorts of appalling behaviour by the state.

I would say they made the decision after fair warning was given and I would think that the policeman was certain that he was a terrorist and he made the choice to kill one suspect terrorist and potentially save hundreds of innocent lives. The fact that the man wasn't a terrorist doesn't make the policeman who pulled the triggers decision wrong, he made the right choice, as far as I'm concerned, based on the information available at the time.

I am also sure that there will be a full investigation, any criticism at this time is unhelpful and unwarranted.

[Dâriûsh]

My heartfelt condolences to his family. It’s a horrible way to end a life.

They should certaintly be brought up on charges. And since when is Asian the same thing as Middle Eastern? It's not, last I looked.

I think the term is used to describe people with Pakistani origins, in other words: brown people.

[Tribesman]

Woah there bud, ain't hindsight wonderful?
What hindsight ? It is a lack of foresight and co-ordination that was the problem .
and maybe they were following for a reason like to see where he went and who he spoke to.
Really I thought they were trying to stop him from blowing up a train , thats why they shot him in the head wasn't it ? Or do you think that since they thought he was wired with explosives he was just going out for a chat with his friends .

[Boohugh]

Woah there bud, ain't hindsight wonderful?
What hindsight ? It is a lack of foresight and co-ordination that was the problem

I imagine police resources are pretty stretched at the moment, and I imagine there are also a number of houses across the capital that are under surveillance. It would have been totally impractical to run a large scale surveillance operation running multiple teams covering all potential avenues of escape or potential targets such as tube stations. You must also remember that these were just normal plain-clothed police officers, not surveillance specialists from MI5.

and maybe they were following for a reason like to see where he went and who he spoke to.
Really I thought they were trying to stop him from blowing up a train , thats why they shot him in the head wasn't it ? Or do you think that since they thought he was wired with explosives he was just going out for a chat with his friends

We don't know the exact reason why they started following him. When they started following him, it is quite probable they didn't know where he was going or what he was doing, but didn't consider him an imminent threat (which was why only 3 men were assinged to follow him). When he subsequently ran in to a tube station, ignoring warnings from police to stop (which he understood because he spoke perfect English, according to his family), it isn't unreasonable for the police to then consider him an imminet threat and shoot him.

[lanky316]

What a horrible way to go, being followed by people from the minute you left your house, when one of them shouts and draws a gun on you you run for dear life just be tackled and shot in the head :(

I hope the people responsible for this are heavily reprimanded for what they do and something is done because the poor soul must have been petrified (and by all accounts he looked it) and at least the one thing they did right was end it all quickly.