NEWS: Police shot the wrong man in Stockwell.

[Ja'chyra]

Woah there bud, ain't hindsight wonderful?
What hindsight ? It is a lack of foresight and co-ordination that was the problem .
and maybe they were following for a reason like to see where he went and who he spoke to.
Really I thought they were trying to stop him from blowing up a train , thats why they shot him in the head wasn't it ? Or do you think that since they thought he was wired with explosives he was just going out for a chat with his friends .

I didn't realise you were trained in police resources and operations, but, as you seem to think you know more than the rest of us why don't you tell us how you would have done it.

[KingOfTheIsles]

I love the phrasing, "The policeman had no choice." He had a choice, and he chose wrongly based on shaky suspicions. I fail to see the point of the inquiry, I seriously doubt it will be anything but a whitewash as the authorities have a lot to lose in this situation, so I think the verdict of some government-appointed investigation will be biased. The facts seem to indicate that this was a tragic mistake, and that there are plausible reasons for the suspicious behaviour, but IMO this policy of shooting at the head is fundamentally flawed, if the police had him pinned anyway.

Essentially, this was murder in cold blood, as I cannot see any reason why an immobilised suspect should be shot 5 time sin the head. If this is what results from using armed plain-clothes officers, Scotland Yard seriously needs to reevaluate its policies, as this is justy handing another propaganda victory to the terrorists.

[Steppe Merc]

BKS, I thought that you could get charged for man slaughter if you hit someone by accident...

Anyway, my point is this. I can understand why the police did what they did. However, they killed someone, and that is illegal. As much as it may seem unfair, the fairness (and the law I believe) dictaces that some sort of investigation goes on. I don't want him to die or anything, but he broke the law.

I think the term is used to describe people with Pakistani origins, in other words: brown people.

Ah. Thanks, I was quite confused (perhaps understandably so).

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

BKS, I thought that you could get charged for man slaughter if you hit someone by accident...

Only if you're unfit to drive, or driving dangerously. If someone runs out in front of you at a crossing, and you kill them, you've done nothing illegal.

I can't see how the police officer broke the law. He shot at a suspect running away from him, who had failed to stop, and who he believed was a danger to other people. The police are authorised to use lethal force in such circumstances.

[Azi Tohak]

My problem is not the number of bullets (1, 5, 15..he's still dead) but the fact that he was pinned to the ground and then executed.

No man deserves that. At least hold him until you can get some more info.

Azi

[Grey_Fox]

this policy of shooting at the head is fundamentally flawed, if the police had him pinned anyway.

Essentially, this was murder in cold blood, as I cannot see any reason why an immobilised suspect should be shot 5 time sin the head.

My problem is not the number of bullets (1, 5, 15..he's still dead) but the fact that he was pinned to the ground and then executed.

No man deserves that. At least hold him until you can get some more info.

Suicide bombers typically have a trigger in their hand. Pinning a person to the ground is not going to prevent them from pressing the trigger. The only thing that will stop them from pulling the trigger is causing an immediate central nervous system shutdown, and this is achieved by putting as many bullets as possible into the head and spine of the suicide bomber. Until that is done, you and everybody around you are dead. You may think it is cold-blooded murder or an execution, but it is the only practical way to make certain that a suicide bomber does not trigger his bombs.

The guy spoke perfect english. He was wearing a thick padded coat. At least one witness stated that he was wearing a bomb belt with wires coming out (which, considering he was an electrician may just have been the tools of his trade, wither way it is enough to arouse suspicion). He was challenged by police, both plain clothed and uniformed, yet decided to run away, into a tube station. He then ran into a train and, according to an eyewitness, he grabbed a pole and another person. He was tackled to the ground and shot multiple times (some people say they heard four shots, others say they heard five, but it is irrelevant).

The real problem I see here is why, if he was an innocent bystander, did he run away? That is probably what sealed his fate. If a police officer tells you to stop, you stop, and do it immediately, otherwise you are just digging a grave for yourself.

In my opinion, the Brazilian is as responsible for his death, if not more so, than the police officers involved.

[scooter_the_shooter]

Azi some people DO deserve that. But this is not one of them.

[Xiahou]

Essentially, this was murder in cold blood, as I cannot see any reason why an immobilised suspect should be shot 5 time sin the head. If this is what results from using armed plain-clothes officers, Scotland Yard seriously needs to reevaluate its policies, as this is justy handing another propaganda victory to the terrorists.

Are we certain he was immobilized and pinned down? It seems you hear different versions.

As to plain clothes officers, I do think they can be problematic and maybe shouldnt be used to apprehend suspects- for their own safety and the safety of the suspect. If someone sees a man with a gun chasing a terrified guy through the streets, how are people to know who the 'good guy' is? What if some would-be hero were to attack the undercover cop thinking he's an assailant?

[Tribesman]

If he was such an imminent threat when he was in a train station that he had to be shot , why was he not such an imminent threat when he got on a bus ?

Surely as buses have been targets of suicide bombers why not shoot him when he gets on one ? why wait until he gets to a train ? how is he that much more of an imminent threat because it is a train and not a bus ?

If he is that much of an imminent threat that he has to be executed then execute him as soon as he walks out of his front door , or even better knock down his front door and execute him in the comfort of his own home .

We don't know the exact reason why they started following him. When they started following him, it is quite probable they didn't know where he was going or what he was doing, but didn't consider him an imminent threat

Yes we do , they started following him the moment he left the house in Tulse Hill , they followed him because they had the house under observation as a suspected base for the suicide bombers , they followed him on the bus , they followed him to the tube .
At which point did he become such an imminent threat that he had to be killed ? when he was on the floor ? Rubbish .
If he was an imminent threat who had to be killed to remove the threat then you remove the threat at the first oppertunity , when he leaves the house , or before he leaves it .

Oh yeah , and for all those going on about the fact that he was wearing a coat in British summertime . Next time you are in London take a look around . You will notice a hell of a lot of people wearing coats on even the hottest British summers day .

[lanky316]

Yes we do , they started following him the moment he left the house in Tulse Hill , they followed him because they had the house under observation as a suspected base for the suicide bombers , they followed him on the bus , they followed him to the tube .

I wasn't entirely aware of the route, I knew they'd tracked him but not the bit on the bus. Which asks the question why did nobody confront him on here, they didn't need to startle the poor sod and make him panic on a bus, it's one of the easier places to corner and question somebody without waving a gun and shouting "stop"...

[Tribesman]

The point I am trying to make is .
If they thought he was wired with explosives then they should get him at the first oppetunity , not let him wander round the capital hoping that they could see who he was going to talk to .
If they didn't think he was wired with explosives then they should't shoot him .

So which was it ?
Were they allowing a walking bomb to wander around London or didn't they think he was a walking bomb .
Either way it is a serious balls up .

[A.Saturnus]

If you excuse the policemen for confusing a brazilian with an asian, why not excuse the man for mistaking plain cloth policmen for robbers?

[scooter_the_shooter]

uniformed police were after him too. So that isnt an excuse.

[scooter_the_shooter]

I really hate things like this becausethe only way to deal with it is.


Do nothing

do A vast invasion of privacy. Searches, No more coats allowed etc.Armed gaurds at every corner.


I dont like either idea. What can the authorities do

[Grey_Fox]

Alright, so let's just assume that the cops made a mistake; there was no particularly sinister intent here, and it was all purely an accident.

Of course it was a bloody accident. You don't seriously think that the policemen involved were a bunch of murderous thugs set out to kill as many Brazilians as possible, do you?

[Slyspy]

Wearing a coat is not a crime. Being a darker clour than the natives is not a crime. Neither is getting on a bus or the tube. Even running from the police is not a crime. Getting caught in a surveillence operation is not a crime.

Shooting a man dead is a crime.

There will be an investigation as there is into any police shooting, and if it is open and honest I suspect it will be rather unpleasant for all involved. All the reports I have seen/heard indicate that the officers involved were all plain clothes and that the rules governing lethal force have recently and quietly been altered. I suspect that policy changes are more important than personnel changes.

As a side note: we have been told again and again that suicide bombs are usually detonated remotely or on a timer so that the carrier is less likely to bottle it. Why then assume that this man was reaching to trigger a device and thus shoot him in this way? Or have we been told a bunch of lies again?

[scooter_the_shooter]

Usually does not mean always.


I think those cops should not be have charges pressed. should not be fired. but should have a desk job now(and they probably want one too)

[Redleg]

Wearing a coat is not a crime. Being a darker clour than the natives is not a crime. Neither is getting on a bus or the tube. Even running from the police is not a crime. Getting caught in a surveillence operation is not a crime.

No - none of those things are a crime. However running from the police gives the illusion that you are committing a crime

Shooting a man dead is a crime.

It all depends on the circumstances involved in the shooting. The police's actions will be investigated and a conclusion will be drawn. There is not enough information for us as bystanders to determine if the police acted with criminal negliance.

There will be an investigation as there is into any police shooting, and if it is open and honest I suspect it will be rather unpleasant for all involved. All the reports I have seen/heard indicate that the officers involved were all plain clothes and that the rules governing lethal force have recently and quietly been altered. I suspect that policy changes are more important than personnel changes.

And when the conclusions come out we can then pass sound and logical judgment on the police officer's actions. If the rules have been changed and the police were not adequately trained prior to the operation - and events - it sheds a little more light on the subject then the media reports so far that I have read.

As a side note: we have been told again and again that suicide bombs are usually detonated remotely or on a timer so that the carrier is less likely to bottle it. Why then assume that this man was reaching to trigger a device and thus shoot him in this way? Or have we been told a bunch of lies again?

THe devices have been set off by all the above mentioned ways. You might want to research into the sucide bombings in Israel - they often are done by the bomber with a trigger device incase they are caught before they reach their intended target. I would hazard a guess that the English Police have been taken lesson learned from Israel in their methods of dealing with bombers now.

[Steppe Merc]

Red is probably right, right now there isn't enough info. There will (or should be) an investigation, and then they when there is more information, a desicion will be made.
However, who will be doing an invistagation? I hardly think that the police should invistigate themselves...

[Dâriûsh]

I can not condone this murder, but I do understand the dire circumstances that caused it.

This shouldn’t have happened at all. An innocent young man was robbed of his life, causing great grief to his family, and most likely ruined the lives of the police officers involved.

People should not so hastily forget that the terrorists were the ones who sowed the sorrow which London now reaps. And inshallah the monsters who caused this evil will suffer in hell for all of eternity. His blood is on their hands.

[Efrem]

I still feel that the police merely did thier job.

[Tribesman]

I still feel that the police merely did thier job.
Yeah right , I will be travelling on the tube and the London buses next month ,I will not be wearing a big coat but I will be carrying a big bag .
I have been detained many times as a suspected terrorist even though I have nothing to do with terrorism .
Should I be killed just because of some suspicion ?
My wife , even though she is British has also had to go through the same shit , should she be shot just because she might be linked to terrorism ?

So the issue is not if the police did their job , the issue is if the police in attempting to do their job made a big fuck up .
Unfortunately it looks like the police did the latter .

[econ21]

we have been told again and again that suicide bombs are usually detonated remotely or on a timer so that the carrier is less likely to bottle it. Why then assume that this man was reaching to trigger a device and thus shoot him in this way?

From what I have read, with both waves of the London bombings, the detonation (or attempted detonation) was manual.

[ShadesPanther]

I still feel that the police merely did thier job.
Yeah right , I will be travelling on the tube and the London buses next month ,I will not be wearing a big coat but I will be carrying a big bag .
I have been detained many times as a suspected terrorist even though I have nothing to do with terrorism .
Should I be killed just because of some suspicion ?
My wife , even though she is British has also had to go through the same shit , should she be shot just because she might be linked to terrorism ?

So the issue is not if the police did their job , the issue is if the police in attempting to do their job made a big fuck up .
Unfortunately it looks like the police did the latter .

I'm sure they just loved your accent

It least it shows that they are trying. Obviously they messed up as he was innocent but what he did wasn't really very bright. I think it's more a case of stupid decisions by the man and nervous Policemen.

Some criticised about the 1 life instead of hundreds. It can be easily abused but someone has to make the call and they did trying to save the lives of a carrigefull of passengers 2 weeks after a major attack and a day after another one with suicide bombers.

[kiwitt]

In all honestly, I don't care if the police's action was understandable

Shooting a man "Pinned Down" is NOT understandable.

I believe the "Terrorists" are winning the war, if they have installed so much fear in western society, that killing your own is acceptable. "Osama" must laughing his head off at that development. Soon he won't have to use bombs any more, because we be will killing ourselves anyway.

[Tribesman]

I'm sure they just loved your accent
whataboutyenehei ?
Works both ways doesn't it Shades
Some criticised about the 1 life instead of hundreds.
True , but I was listening to the same bunch of bollox on Friday don he pub saying that it was the right thing to do , yet they went protesting when the British did in Gibralter
Condemn terrorism , but apply it equally .

[Papewaio]

Last time I was in Bali I wore a jumper because it was relatively cold after working in the Sumatran jungle and at the Equator in Borneo.

I assume that someone from Brazil even after 3 years would still find the weather rather brisk. Much like seeing Englishmen in Aus who wear shorts all year round while the locals are rugged up in coats.

Also a lot of the pictures show people rugged up too.

I think if someone does a crime they should do the time.

A harder penalty should be for those who attack government officials particularly uniformed police.

A harder penalty still should be in place for government officials particularly police.

The opposite holds true in police states.

This needs to be a very public inquiry not a white wash.

Nor do I take the he was pinned down and the only way to eliminate the threat was to shut off his central nervous system. This type of fear and response is just the type of terror the terrorists are trying to generate.

Hence they the terrorists are winning, while a lot of you are quickly cashing in your freedom for the false sense of security.

Here in Australia they are talking about bringing in an identity card based on these events. How on earth does a photo ID of a person who has no prior record going to stop things like this? False security.

"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance."
-- Thomas Jefferson

"Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Benjamin Franklin

[Roark]

I totally agree with JAG on this one. This poor guy was probably scared out of his brain.

I also sympathise somewhat with the police, though... Tensions must be at an all-time high, for the younger officers especially...

[Efrem]

[QUOTE=kiwitt]Shooting a man "Pinned Down" is NOT understandable.
[QUOTE]


Being pinned down doesn't stop you detonating an explosive with a trigger in your hand does it??

[Papewaio]

Shooting a man "Pinned Down" is NOT understandable.

Being pinned down doesn't stop you detonating an explosive with a trigger in your hand does it??

IFF he was pinned down it does not absolve the policeman of murder.

If the guy was still running then the policeman should get a medal. If they have him pinned to the ground the same policeman should get charged.

If we are going to change the rules to that of a police state then the terrorists have already won by getting us to change our way of life to one that like them does not respect human life.

The terrorists operate from a center of fear and hatred and disregard for due process and the law. They do not negotiate, they murder. They win when we act in the same manner as them.

We need information from these people so that we can eliminate the group.