Can America compete?

[Azi Tohak]

Ooo...yeah...wallow in that self-loathing Martyr...yeah...you know you like it don't you...oh yeah...

And what exactly makes you worthy of preaching about the evils of using cheap labor to us? Are you going to ship your job (assuming Pinkos such as yourself have one) to another country to help make up for decades of 'evil Western influence'?

So the Indians and Chinese are getting smarter. BFD. I think we need to fix our #*$ school system so this generation in schools stays smarter than they are. And no, I don't believe it is possible for everyone to profit and be happy. There are winners and there are losers on Earth. Been that way for thousands of years. There is no way it is going to change.

Azi

[_Martyr_]

Ooo...yeah...wallow in that self-loathing Martyr...yeah...you know you like it don't you...oh yeah...

Self loathing?? Lol. Anything but. You'll find its called humility and having something called a social conscience. Something that is seen as a virtue in other parts of the world, but evidently is seen as a weakness in your particular world view.

And what exactly makes you worthy of preaching about the evils of using cheap labor to us? Are you going to ship your job (assuming Pinkos such as yourself have one) to another country to help make up for decades of 'evil Western influence'?

Ill just say, watch your tone. As it happens Im in exactly the same situation as you are. Engineering student. I finnished my LC (Irish A levels) as the highest scoring guy in my year, got an entrance exhibition to the best Uni in the country, and yes, when Im finnished my degree I have every reason to believe that I will be employed. Thank you very much.

I dont need a liscence from you or anyone else to point out the gross imbalances of the new-liberal economic model. Thats the bloody point of a discussion forum. To express a view on a particular topic. As for exporting my own job? I would rather help build up the economies of the Third world so that they are sustainable and can produce their own employment, industry and prosperity, without having to undercut us, or be enslaved to our corperate greed.

So the Indians and Chinese are getting smarter. BFD. I think we need to fix our #*$ school system so this generation in schools stays smarter than they are. And no, I don't believe it is possible for everyone to profit and be happy. There are winners and there are losers on Earth. Been that way for thousands of years. There is no way it is going to change..

The invisible hand will go the way of profit, remember, this invisible hand we so much adore because it has made us so very rich. Well, now its turning on us and this century China will emerge as the dominant power. In the beginning, when corporations moved their production to the cheap labour markets of the Third World, it suited us down to the ground, cheaper products. We praise the virtues of the Free Market and how great it works. (because it was a sweet deal and we were coming out way on top) Now when this lag catches up with us, and our middle class jobs begin to be exported, we suddenly have a problem with it. There is the irony. We now hear calls for protection. We were the winners and still are, but we wont be in the future. They are on the way up, we are on the way down.

[Red Harvest]

I scanned the article before seeing this thread. The points that I noted were ones that I have been making unsuccessfully for some time: a lack of basic research funding is the source of the problem. 30 straight years of declining R&D is catching up with us. The conservative/guardian types running our companies (and our govt.) only see short term dollars. That means they will support development because they can see the economics for the end product, but not research...but without research, you don't get to development. Never mind...that's a decade or so out...and they need the profits today...BANG...they just shot themselves in the corporate temple. They ain't exactly the smartest folks out there, but they have connections and they work as a self policing pack--"please get all of your employees back in the box." Good luck in trying to get through to them.

The math/science education push is misplaced. What good is a good math/science education if the tech jobs and tech research are moving elsewhere? If the industries I serve don't want to do research and development in the U.S. anymore, and the govt doesn't have much interest in priming the pump, then what good is my education doing for me if I want to live here? Not a lot. Rather than working on the supply side, we need to be focusing on demand. Without the research side, the edge is eventually lost, and with it, those high paying jobs that demand a good education and out of the box thinking.

[Azi Tohak]

Sorry Red...I'm not getting it...you think the science and math push is misplaced...but isn't that who performs the R&D?

Azi

[_Martyr_]

He's saying that if the payrollers of the R&D, the corporate bosses arent prepared to fund mid to long term research, then it doesn't help if you've got an extremely well educated population as there wont be many jobs.

[Crazed Rabbit]

No they arent. A tiny segment of elite Chinese (its a lot of people when the numbers are taken from western engineers, but its tiny when compared with the number of Chinese people there are) are getting good jobs, imported from the West. The vast majority work in terrible conditions for pennies, exploited, making huge profits for Western Corporations.

I bet working for a foreign shoe maker in China is better than doing some of the make work jobs they had (and perhaps still do) like mowing grass. By hand. As in, plucking each little blade with your fingers.

Free trade can only help the third world, because it gives them more opportunites.

Crazed Rabbit

[bmolsson]

He's saying that if the payrollers of the R&D, the corporate bosses arent prepared to fund mid to long term research, then it doesn't help if you've got an extremely well educated population as there wont be many jobs.

Actually, you can purchase R&D from abroad. In the age of multinational corporations, this is not necessarily a problem. The Japanese have been very successful absorbing up ideas and patents around the globe and then commercialize them.
The real problem is if there are not risk capital available to commercialize the result from research.

[Productivity]

I Dont want to out law it. Just tax companies that do it into the ground. Sort of like the tariffs bush put on european steel so american companies would make a come back.

It's still protectionism, and it still hurts everyone except for a select few.

[_Martyr_]

Actually, you can purchase R&D from abroad. In the age of multinational corporations, this is not necessarily a problem. The Japanese have been very successful absorbing up ideas and patents around the globe and then commercialize them.
The real problem is if there are not risk capital available to commercialize the result from research.

Well it wasnt my point, I was clarifying RedHarvest... But I'll defend it. That is exactly his point. The jobs in R&D are being exported. It is advantagous for these jobs (the actul research jobs) being in your country rather than simply buying them in.

[bmolsson]

Well it wasnt my point, I was clarifying RedHarvest... But I'll defend it. That is exactly his point. The jobs in R&D are being exported. It is advantagous for these jobs (the actul research jobs) being in your country rather than simply buying them in.

Sure it's advantagous, but it might not be the best corporate strategy. R&D is not only access to staff for research jobs.
In the end, the larger portion of jobs are not found in R&D, and as long as the production etc are in your country it doesn't really matter.

Note: In the case of US, I believe that if there are not enough researchers, they will be "imported" rather than the actual jobs "exported"......

[_Martyr_]

Well, as for that... production was the first to go.

[Red Harvest]

Actually, you can purchase R&D from abroad. In the age of multinational corporations, this is not necessarily a problem. The Japanese have been very successful absorbing up ideas and patents around the globe and then commercialize them.
The real problem is if there are not risk capital available to commercialize the result from research.

Not really. Good R&D is not a commodity. It takes awhile to build up a working structure. You can't go turning it off and on like a spigot, and that is what outsourcing tries to do. The outsourcing efforts are part of the commoditization of everything. Research is not a commodity, it is the long range strategic arm of business.

I have great respect for the Asians I've worked with: intelligent hard workers and good people. However, there was something missing from their business/societal culture when it came to R&D in my field (and I see considerable evidence of the same in other fields.) Rather than throwing out a bunch of ideas/explanations of why, I will simply say that in comparing results, R&D money was better spent in our U.S. operations.

[Red Harvest]

R&D is not only access to staff for research jobs.
In the end, the larger portion of jobs are not found in R&D, and as long as the production etc are in your country it doesn't really matter.

Note: In the case of US, I believe that if there are not enough researchers, they will be "imported" rather than the actual jobs "exported"......

I wish you were right. However, I've watched R&D organizations shrivel up to nothing in the past 6 years. These were strong productive organizations that had been built up over many decades and have survived various economic cycles.

There are more than enough researchers in the U.S., it is the research culture that is disappearing. 30 years of falling R&D investment tends to have that effect... Complacency is a killer of R&D.

And has been said, production has been moving overseas as rapidly as possible. It is not necessarily one following the other, but it is difficult to justify R&D after the production facilities are gone. So the skilled manufacturing and technical jobs have been moving with the production. What is skilled today will be mainstream tomorrow, and those jobs can be done in low wage environments.

The U.S. economic engine has been: Leadership in research > develoopment > new technology production > licensing/exportation of the production. As long as the R&D pipeline is maintained, the system works, new production replaces the old. Cut back on the R&D pipeline enough...and the whole engine comes to a halt.