"We'll Stay Multiculturally Correct - Even if it Kills Us"

[Kagemusha]

About the topic.Its essential that we stay multiculturally correct.Because the thing that wahhabist priest is that we westerners hate all the muslims,and there fore we should be killed.Do you guys want to prove them right?

[A.Saturnus]

Saying that all Fascists are the same is like saying that Socialism is Nazism.

Or like saying... all Muslims are dangerous??

[Kaiser of Arabia]

How the hell can you see into people’s heart? Tell me where you learned this mystical power


I see many people here bash America I will give quotes (but not names so no one is singled out) I used to see french bashing on here. If we can have that why not this. You also see christian bashing to on here too.

So why should islam be given better treatment.

Because Islamists taste good on crackers? I dunno...

[PanzerJaeger]

This thread proves the author's point.

No one will stand up and say "Theres a problem within Islam that must be dealt with." Instead we've seen attacks on me, the author, ect.

If the "moderate"(ie the ones who dont blow people up) muslim leaders dont address the problem and if the West continues to close its eyes and pretend there isnt a problem then we can only expect more terror attacks. Its like trying to kill a weed without killing the roots.

[Kagemusha]

If you mean that we should rout out Islam in order to rout out extremist.I say you are having a nightmare.

[Steppe Merc]

PJ, haven't some already condemmed the radicals? Didn't English and Spanish leaders issue fatwas?
And yes, normal Muslim leaders need to condem the nutjobs. But what can we do about it? It's not like the government can order a condemnation.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

It's not like the government can order a condemnation.

Its not the government . There is no government of Islam. Its up to the Muslims to clean up their mess. So far their doing an extremely poor job of it.

[Steppe Merc]

Perhaps. But I think you get what I'm saying: even if non Muslims say "Normal Muslims need to condem the bad ones", they still have to do it. Non Muslims can't make them do it.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Perhaps. But I think you get what I'm saying: even if non Muslims say "Normal Muslims need to condem the bad ones", they still have to do it. Non Muslims can't make them do it.

Isnt that what I just said? I also dont think you will get an arguement out of PJ on this.

[Steppe Merc]

Oh. I'm confused now...

[Azi Tohak]

Fatwa...

fatwa

n : a ruling on a point of Islamic law that is given by a recognized authority

So a fatwa was given...about the attacks...for or against?

Azi

[Steppe Merc]

Um, it was against the attackers, I believe. Someone else knows more about it, and the what it actually means, though.

[bmolsson]

Not as long as we spend more on our military then the rest of you combined

And still you can't catch a rag like bin Laden ??

[Productivity]

Fatwa...

fatwa

n : a ruling on a point of Islamic law that is given by a recognized authority

So a fatwa was given...about the attacks...for or against?

Azi

It was against the attacks.

[Azi Tohak]

Thanks. Just checking. I kept seeing the darned word...and it does make sense.

Too bad there is no Pope of Islam. One figurehead who could tell all the extremists 'No! Bad! Quit shooting us in the foot!'



Sorry that was bad. I wonder if it would be possible to motivate the rest of the Moslem world to get rid of the extremists. Probably not...but at least they could help ameliorate their influence.

Azi

[Productivity]

I do get the impression that by far the majority of leaders are trying to calm it down, it's just the radicals who are stuffing the whole thing up. Here's part of a transcript from an interview with a muslim leader from an (Australian) ABC show I like to watch Lateline.

When reading it (and indeed watching it) I gave the Sheikh some leeway because it is obvious English isn't his first language, and so some of his words are somewhat clumsy sounding, but to me it seems the intent is good.

TONY JONES: Alright. Let's move on to the other thing you said that has get people upset, and that's your position on jihad. You are saying to young Australian Muslims, it appears, that it's not right to do jihad in Australia, but it would be righteous to fight a jihad in Iraq. Is that correct?

SHEIKH OMRAN: No, I didn't say that. I never said that and I always trying to calm my people and teach them that we need the youth to build Australia. But, again, this is a different view and a different time. Jihad, as I said, is a sword with two edges. It could cut you, which means you could understand it in the right way, and you could understand it in the wrong way. But we don't say jihad is not something we need. I don't say that.

TONY JONES: But would you say it is right to fight a Jihad in Iraq?

SHEIKH OMRAN: If there's a Jihad in Iraq I don't believe what's happening in Iraq today, with all of this interruption and misconduct with everyone against everyone is a jihad, I don't say that, no.

TONY JONES: So it would be wrong for any young Australian to go to Iraq to fight jihad, is that right?

SHEIKH OMRAN: That's less or more about what I'm saying, yes.

TONY JONES: Well, can you say that clearly so young Muslims will understand what you are saying? Is it wrong to fight a jihad?

SHEIKH OMRAN: Of course it is wrong. Especially nowadays it is wrong to do anything. I don't believe, as I said in Channel 9, and I believe you are aware of that, I said it maybe a year ago or more than that, jihad need establishment of a government to lead the jihad in the right order. I don't believe jihad can be done by everyone and anyone by no means and no target on it and achieving nothing at all.

TONY JONES: Alright. Now, again, the last time we spoke, you claimed that no true Muslim would have done anything as awful as the London train and bus bombings. It's now quit clear that young British-born Muslims carried out those bombings. Are you shocked by that?

SHEIKH OMRAN: Yes, I am. Absolutely.

TONY JONES: So what is the lesson for young Australian Muslims out of the bombings in London?

SHEIKH OMRAN: That to stay with their sheikhs, learn more about their religion, not to be led with mischief people to do a mischief action.

TONY JONES: Is suicide bombing an evil and a perversion of Islam?

SHEIKH OMRAN: Well, I can't say that as a general term, but it is for what they are doing now. Yes, it is.

TONY JONES: So how does it stand with you, Sheikh? Will suicide bombers end up in hell having broken one of the strictest commandment in the Koran against the killing of innocent people?

SHEIKH OMRAN: Hell or paradise is not in my hand or your hand, but we condemn the action and God only himself can judge these people when they pass to the next life. But what I say, the action - like what happened in London or what happened anywhere else - killing innocent people is not an Islamic action.

TONY JONES: What do you say to the delusion that many of these young suicide bombers have that they will go straight to heaven and be attended by 72 virgins?

SHEIKH OMRAN: I'm saying they got it wrong, and I hope the listeners understand that going to heaven is not just killing yourself, you go to heaven. You don't go to heaven if you don't have the right intention, and the good intention and the good deeds, and this is the only thing that can take you to heaven.

TONY JONES: Sheikh Mohomed Omran, we thank you once again for taking the time to come and talk to us tonight.

SHEIKH OMRAN: You're most welcome.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

I think he illustrates just what wrong here. He should be outright condeming these people . Hes hedging his words. Its this well of course their wrong but what do you expect me to do attitude thats to blame. At least thats the perception of many here in the West. Again if christains were doing this we would be the first to hunt them down.

[Productivity]

I disagree with you. He's hedging in some cases because he feels he can't do it due to his beleifs (ie. he can't say someone will go to hell, neither can he saysomeone will go to heaven), but where he can he's absolute enough.

Q: So it would be wrong for any young Australian to go to Iraq to fight jihad, is that right?
A: That's less or more about what I'm saying, yes.

That's pretty clear to me.

Q:It's now quit clear that young British-born Muslims carried out those bombings. Are you shocked by that?
A: Yes, I am. Absolutely.

Pretty clear that he feels shocked that people who claim to follow Islam would commit such atrocities.

Q: Is suicide bombing an evil and a perversion of Islam?
A: Well, I can't say that as a general term, but it is for what they are doing now. Yes, it is.

Again, pretty clear. He's hedging in sayign suicide bombings could be acceptible in some circumstances, but then goes on to say that in the circumstances of terrorism and the killing of innocents it is evil and a perversion of Islam.

Re. condemming.

SHEIKH OMRAN: Hell or paradise is not in my hand or your hand, but we condemn the action and God only himself can judge these people when they pass to the next life. But what I say, the action - like what happened in London or what happened anywhere else - killing innocent people is not an Islamic action.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Q: So it would be wrong for any young Australian to go to Iraq to fight jihad, is that right?
A: That's less or more about what I'm saying, yes.

So is it more or is it less? That doesnt seem clear to me.

Q:It's now quit clear that young British-born Muslims carried out those bombings. Are you shocked by that?
A: Yes, I am. Absolutely.

Pretty clear that he feels shocked that people who claim to follow Islam would commit such atrocities.

Its not to me. He could be saying hes shocked they were born in Britan. I would imagine everyone but those who knew the plan were shocked by what happened. This proves nothing.

Q: Is suicide bombing an evil and a perversion of Islam?
A: Well, I can't say that as a general term, but it is for what they are doing now. Yes, it is.

Again, pretty clear. He's hedging in sayign suicide bombings could be acceptible in some circumstances, but then goes on to say that in the circumstances of terrorism and the killing of innocents it is evil and a perversion of Islam.

Again he very vague. He doesnt point out exactly what it is now that their doing wrong.

Re. condemming.

SHEIKH OMRAN: Hell or paradise is not in my hand or your hand, but we condemn the action and God only himself can judge these people when they pass to the next life. But what I say, the action - like what happened in London or what happened anywhere else - killing innocent people is not an Islamic action..

Well he comes close here. At least he condenms the actions but again all hes really saying is hey were not all like that. He should be telling his people if you know any radicals like this turn them into the authorities. They should be screaming this from on high. They should call for a Jihad against the Jihadists. Dont hold your breath waiting for it though.

[scooter_the_shooter]

Well he comes close here. At least he condenms the actions but again all hes really saying is hey were not all like that. He should be telling his people if you know any radicals like this turn them into the authorities. They should be screaming this from on high. They should call for a Jihad against the Jihadists. Dont hold your breath waiting for it though.
__________________

Thats never going to happen gawain. American britain any country not to afraid to help are going to have to deal with it. If they were going to do anything about their own people they would have done it already.

[Tribesman]

"Normal Muslims need to condem the bad ones"
Well that can sometimes be a little difficult , there were several protests held in Egypt , but unfortunately the protesters were threatened with arrest , because in a freedom loving Western backed nation that has been under emergency laws for the past 24 years you cannot protest , even if you are protesting againsnt terrorists who are attacking your own country .

They should call for a Jihad against the Jihadists. Dont hold your breath waiting for it though.
Why not , it would be a very short breath to hold since it has already happened , many times by many people in many countries .

[Ronin]

I think he illustrates just what wrong here. He should be outright condeming these people . Hes hedging his words. Its this well of course their wrong but what do you expect me to do attitude thats to blame. At least thats the perception of many here in the West. Again if christains were doing this we would be the first to hunt them down.

i don´t think he´s hedging.....on the contrary...the intervier was trying to stuff words down his mouth, and he´s not going with that....he´s just making his position, he says that the london situation was wrong....can´t get much clearer than that.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

i don´t think he´s hedging.....on the contrary...the intervier was trying to stuff words down his mouth, and he´s not going with that....he´s just making his position, he says that the london situation was wrong....can´t get much clearer than that.

Your only proving my point. Oh my he said it was wrong. How courageous of him. He should be screaming his head off.

What did you expect him to say he supports it?

[A.Saturnus]

No one will stand up and say "Theres a problem within Islam that must be dealt with." Instead we've seen attacks on me, the author, ect.

PJ, you don`t understand. I was not trying to attack you but to demonstrate you via a counter-example that your conclusion that "there`s a problem with Islam", is not valid. I was not trying to make a point about you or the other, but about your argument.

Gawain, ever heard of the Principle of Charity?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Gawain, ever heard of the Principle of Charity?

What of it? Once more if a group who claimed to be christians were doing this we would be just saying hey thats wrong. We would be killing the bastards ourselves. If you need any help killing them just ask us. Not hemming and hawing. He does seem to leave room for Jihad does he not?

[Ronin]

What of it? Once more if a group who claimed to be christians were doing this we would be just saying hey thats wrong. We would be killing the bastards ourselves. If you need any help killing them just ask us. Not hemming and hawing. He does seem to leave room for Jihad does he not?

when the IRA was bombing london i don´t recall an international catolic movement to help kick their ass.....neither would i expect it to happen.......the situation in london isn´t the responsability of Islam as a whole just like the Pope wasn´t responsible for the IRA back in the day...

the does hint that jihad can be acceptable in some situations.......so what?...jihad does not equal terrorism and i imagine it can be conducted in several ways.

[econ21]

One thing Sheikh Omran said that is significant is that jihad should be declared by a government, not done by individuals. This conservative doctrine means that jihad is rather like conventional war in non-Muslim thinking and the concept cannot be used to justify terrorism. Unfortunately, this interpretation is obviously not shared by OBL and fellow Islamic terrorists.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

Ronin, the IRA may be overwhelmingly Catholic but neither Catholicism nor a certain strand of Catholic theology is behind the current situation in Northern Ireland.

With the IRA you may have expected ordinary citizens of the U.K. to condemn what they did: they did so. You may expect the armed forces (and loyalist terrorists) to go after the IRA: they did so.
You wouldn't expect a mass Catholic movement against them unless they became religious fanatics which they do not tend to be.
You may as well have expected massive Catholic movements against the Argentine govt. when they invaded the Falklands.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

when the IRA was bombing london i don´t recall an international catolic movement to help kick their ass.....neither would i expect it to happen.......the situation in london isn´t the responsability of Islam as a whole just like the Pope wasn´t responsible for the IRA back in the day...

I said christains not catholics. Or is the british army now mostly made up of Muslims? Wasnt it other christains who fought them? I know my church here condmend their actions. Also Taffy makes excellent points.

[Ronin]

I said christains not catholics. Or is the british army now mostly made up of Muslims? Wasnt it other christains who fought them? I know my church here condmend their actions. Also Taffy makes excellent points.

the british army were fighting in their own country.....you talked about an international movement....

also...."condemned"?...talk is cheap....specially in a country were part of the irish population was helping fund the IRA....

it´s all nice and dandy talking about wanting the muslim world to give "strong condemnation"...it´s a little harder to live up to those lofty ideals i see.