The Palestinian Response to the London Bombing(Terror) Attacks

[Gawain of Orkeny]

However, I do not specifically know Kur'an phrase by phrase. I'm sure that it never commands the way terrorists claim.

Dont be so sure. I would imagine it would take an Islamic scholar to argue that point.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

The real problem is the moderate Muslims (yeah, I'm pretty sure they exist ) won't out-and-out condemn the terrorists. Individually, yeah, they may condemn such actions, but as a group, not really. Certainly not vocally enough.

[Roark]

Dont be so sure. I would imagine it would take an Islamic scholar to argue that point.

The Quran doesn't advocate or justify terrorism.

[Quran 5:87] ... and do not aggress; GOD dislikes the aggressors.

[Quran 6:151] "...... You shall not kill - GOD has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. These are His commandments to you, that you may understand."

[Quran17:33] "You shall not kill any person - for GOD has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. ....."

[Quran 5:32] "......, we decreed for the Children of Israel that anyone who murders any person who had not committed murder or horrendous crimes, it shall be as if he murdered all the people. And anyone who spares a life, it shall be as if he spared the lives of all the people. .............."

The Quran also condemns the killing, or even the persecution, of people merely because they embrace a different religion. The Quran mandates the absolute freedom of religion in a society. It does not allow Muslims to fight except for self defense and to enforce peace. It does not allow restrictions on those who disagree on religious matters. It urges the Muslims to treat such people kindly and equitably:

[Quran 2:256] "There shall be no compulsion in religion...".

[Quran 60:8]"GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable."

[Quran 8:61]"If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient."

[Quran 4:90]"...... Therefore, if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then GOD gives you no excuse to fight them."

[LeftEyeNine]

Jihad -the famous word that terrorists lean on - is taken against the enemy on the battlefield. Bombing and killing the innocent is not Jihad. That is what Kur'an says..

By the way, I'd like to ask you to search about the Vahhabis which Bin Laden belongs to. They call themselves Islamic but have been excluded strictly long ago for their beliefs that never and ever matched with Islam. Even the most religious Islam followers know who the Vahhabis are. It is a good point for you to start before "blowing Muslims' mosques in their own lands".

[LeftEyeNine]

Roark, I'd like that English translation of Qoran please. Thanks for the contribution, BTW.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

The Quran doesn't advocate or justify terrorism.

Do you really want me to start countering your quotes?

The Koran advocates violence against non-Muslims:

Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book (Christians and Jews), until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state ofsubjection.[9.29]

So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. [9.5]

Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult or oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith. But if they cease, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression. [2:190-193]

There is a clause in [Koran 60] which forbids friendships with those who are against Islam, "Allah only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection)". Also "the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies." [4.101]

There are tons more. I would have a hard time telling what the real meaning of these versus were and would imagine it would be equally hard for others. Remember the Koran is the written word of god . Its not like the bible, only inspired by god.

[Roark]

@ LeftEyeNine:

Dude, sorry I shut down the link, and I can't seem to find it again...

Here are two more English translations:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/

http://web.umr.edu/~msaumr/Quran/

[LeftEyeNine]

..Remember the Koran is the written word of god . Its not like the bible, only inspired by god...

That's a good point.

However, phrases extracted one by one, in any language, may reflect confusing meanings.. Because as in any other holy book, there are stories told or words on particular personalities or incidents. So, you may prefer the previous and the following phrases of the ones before judging.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

The bibles says alot of stuff like that too. Doesn't mean people take it seriously.

Im afraid theres nothing in the new testament to back up your claim. Of course your reffereing to the old testament that is of jewish origin. Christ came to change all that. Judiasim and Islam are more simliar that Judiasim and Christianity strange as it may seem. Thats probably why they hate eachother so much. Like Hitler and Stalin.

[LeftEyeNine]

@ Roark, Thanks for the links. I'll be off to sleep right now. I will check tehm as soon as possible..

[Roark]

Do you really want me to start countering your quotes?

You didn't counter anything, mate.

One of your quotes is largely concerned with fighting oppressors and people who are anti-Muslim. It then goes on to explain that God hates transgressors and, whilst they should fight to re-take lost Muslim lands, they shouldn't push the limits. This is in the same context of my quote ie: Allah doesn't like aggressors.

All this Allah-endorsed violence is concerned with fighting oppression, and your second quote is about Allah restricting Muslims from turning to the allies of their enemies for help!! Sounds pretty sensible to me!!

[Roark]

Anyway, it is sad that so many of these extremists can find justification in their scriptures. It all needs to be taken in context, just like the Bible.

[Steppe Merc]

Gawain, Jesus was quite peaceful, no one can deny that. However, it didn't stop Christians from using the Bible to justify violence back in the day. They concentrated on the Old Testament. Just because Jesus was peaceful doesn't mean that Christians couldn't use their Bible to justify violence.

[Don Corleone]

Guys, one thing we all ought to remember is we, as Westerners, are members of dar-al-hab. Sometimes I believe moderate muslims view America & UK & France as members of dar al-'ahd, and then, I pick up an English translation of the official Syrian or Egyptian newspaper (not Saudi) and I wonder again... Do we have any right of existance at all?

I hope what LeftEyeNine says is true, that Wahabists are not claimed by, nor welcomed by Islam at large, yet all of my experiences seem to run counter to that. I live in North Carolina. Six months after 9/11, they picked up 10 Lebanese, Syrian & Palestinian fellows running cigarettes up to Michigan to sell them without tax seals and send the profits back to Hizbollah. Last I checked, Hizbollah is not a Wahabist organization. In fact, I believe the Shi'ite mullahs in Iran have serious issues with Al-Queda on theological grounds. Yet, Hizbollah seems downright jealous they don't have a 9/11 under their belt themselves. Ditto for Islamic Jihad (another non-Wahabist organization) or Hamas (yet, another).

I guess what I'm hoping for...

I, as a Christian can stand up and publicly renounce the aims and goals of the Holy Roman Empire. Can you as Muslims stand up and renounce the dream of the Caliphate, not just Al-Queda and their bloodthirsty way of accomplishing it, but the dream of a world under Sharia? Do you seek it or do you allow those in dar al-hab to live in peace? Are we dhimini or are we equals? And why don't moderate muslims ever mention these terms? Christians fall over themselves to apologize for the crusades... I don't see the same acknowledgement of past wrongs and dream of a new spirit of tolerance on the muslim side of the street, even when that street lies in Leeds, Yorkshire or Dearborn, Michigan. At best, I hear "don't you dare accuse us of that... you evil racist". Not exactly the best way to start a dialogue...

[LeftEyeNine]

Vahhabis are absolute evils. But that does not counter the fact that Hizbollah (Turkey has collapsed the underground structure of them a couple of years ago after a spectacular operation) or Hamas can be Islam followers.

Let me tell you about the real thing lying under the angry Middle East (the boiling point that strikes any other country in the world about radical events) : The poverty, the political power of the Westerners, the "gendarmes of the world" deciding everything to happen as they wish since they have the wealth to do it..

You are familiar with Islamic terrorism only lately aren't you ? Why suddenly everything blew up as if "someone" triggered the fire? Islam stands as a religion for over 1900 years. Omit the medieval wars and days of Islamic expansion, why did peace-preaching Muslims grew mad ?

In Turkey, we have sacrificed 30.000 people to PKK - the Kurdish terrorists. You got bombs blowing in your own land, (R.I.P. civilians) now you know what TERRORISM feels like ? Did you have to test it before you could understand our pain and agony of terrorism ?

There is the DHKP-C - the communist extremists never hesitated to bomb in touristic places or hunt down police officers. We have dealt a lot until Hizbollah was never active in Turkey again. Do you know that MGK - the military comission that had great power over the government's actions - saved us from those radical Islamic extremists ?

We are living next to Iran, Syria, Iraq - the notorious trio that "gendarme of the world" is looking for excuses to attack. Do you think that these countries never and ever tried to spread Islamic extremism to Turkey? Were they the fuses and the bombs to tell you about what Islamic extremisim looks like. Or do you still think that we should open our arms - unleash the ropes everything for EU ?

Now you know what terrorism feels like ? BBC still avoids calling PKK "the terrorists" since that they say they must choose the words carefully since they are journalists ? Is there something like "my terrorist" and "your rebellions" ?

Now you know what terrorism feels like ?

R.I.P. all those involved. Terrorism is terrorism whatever the cause. Can you go out to the streets and yell it like that? Or still distingusih those as "rebellions" and muslims "the ones to blow up".

Yes, now you feel what terrorism feels like...

Let's answer questions mutually. That's where the compromisation will start.

[Roark]

Over here in Australia, lately, there has been increased condemnation of the terror acts by the Muslim community. This is a great thing, as it draws a distinct line between them and the extremists.

[Don Corleone]

Vahhabis are absolute evils. But that does not counter the fact that Hizbollah (Turkey has collapsed the underground structure of them a couple of years ago after a spectacular operation) or Hamas can be Islam followers.

Let me tell you about the real thing lying under the angry Middle East (the boiling point that strikes any other country in the world about radical events) : The poverty, the political power of the Westerners, the "gendarmes of the world" deciding everything to happen as they wish since they have the wealth to do it..

You are familiar with Islamic terrorism only lately aren't you ? Why suddenly everything blew up as if "someone" triggered the fire? Islam stands as a religion for over 1900 years. Omit the medieval wars and days of Islamic expansion, why did peace-preaching Muslims grew mad ?

Hmm, until about 85 years ago, your dreams were fulfilled in the Ottoman empire. Since then, there hasn't been peace in the Muslim world. If what you say is true, and the terrorism is caused by poverty, why were all 19 of the 9/11 hijackers 'well to do', affluent and from good families? Hell, one of the Brittish train bombers was a married school teacher with children. He had the full backing of the British social welfare system, having been born and raised there...

If it's from this 'gendarme spirit of the West', why did Islamacists attack us WHILE we were defending Muslims in Kosovo.

If it's that you want a 'land of your own', why do the Chechens continue to bomb Moscow, even after Moscow agreed to let Chechnia become an independent Republic?

I'm sorry, I see a deeper pattern here. I see a condemnation of the means to achieve a goal, but not the goal itself. I see a lot of hand-wringing from muslims that they don't want the violence, but I've yet to hear one muslim renounce the goal of Sharia in the UK, or the USA, or anyplace else that it doesn't currently exist.

And I noticed, you didn't join me, when I condemned the idea of a Christian kingdom (or in your case, an Islamic Caliphate). You didn't renounce the goal of Sharia for the whole world. Perhaps you don't agree with the extremists methods, but you sure seem to agree with their justifications and their goals.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

It seems that any Muslim nation that co operates wiith the west or tries to be moderate in their views are as ripe as we are to these attacks as the recent Bombings in Egypt illustrate. This is our biggest hope though. They are making the same mistake in Iraq by killing civilians. Again they remind me of the Mafia in Sicly . I beileve many Muslims are afraid to say how they really feel. I would think a person who renounces Islam over there would be far more looked down, if not down right rejected , than someone who renounced christianity here. Our great hope is that they will piss off the avergae Muslim and their leaders to the point where they scream enough of this crap already. The money were spending on the war on terror could probably been enough to remove poverty from the entire middle east. Anyway poverty is not the cause of terrorism. Radical Islam holds that distinction all to itself.

I think Don pretty much summed it all up nicely for me. I dont see how you can refute what he said.

[Roark]

Don... Obviously you know a fair bit about some of the extremist groups, but, seriously..... do you honestly believe that there is some massive agenda of Islam to subvert the world to Sharia?

Apart from the odd letter written by extremist nutcases, you're the only guy I ever see discussing it...

By the way, omission doesn't equate to agreement. I think the "implications" that you have gleaned from the lack of an adequate response from the Muslim world, and LeftEyeNine's response, were wayyyyy presumptuous...

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Don... Obviously you know a fair bit about some of the extremist groups, but, seriously..... do you honestly believe that there is some massive agenda of Islam to subvert the world to Sharia?

Isnt it the stated goal of Islam to get every one to SUBMIT to the laws of Allah?
Its right out there in front . Theres no secret plot.

[Don Corleone]

Roark,

At one time, it was illegal for people of color to enter your country. In fact, the abolition of that policy is more recent than my birth. Yet, when the policy is raised, Aussies fall over themselves to renounce it.

Yet, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, the whackjobs and myself are NOT the only ones talking about Sharia. The new prime minister of Turkey thinks it's a wonderful way to go, as does the new ruling party in Iraq. Iran & Saudi Arabia already live under it. Pakistan, Egypt Syria & Lebanon are not allowed to pass laws that directly contradict it.

And... whether you care to hear it or not, in mosques across London, New York, and I hate to break it to you, Sydney, Imams call for it. Even among moderate muslims. The goal is not what differentiates moderate muslims from the extremists, it is the means to accomplish it.

If you do not understand that you are dhimini, a filthy khafir, and it is no crime for a muslim to kill you under Sharia, then you are passively blowing off a ideology of intolerance as a 'cultural leaning'. I'm sorry, I don't care to be that 'culturally open'. I'd rather say 'no thanks', before I get my tongue cut out for saying it.

You ask me if I believe there is a 'massive plot' to subject the world to Sharia, in light of the terrorist bombings. I do not believe that the majority of muslims support this as a way to achieve it, but a world under sharia is one of the pillars of Islam.

[sharrukin]

They are making the same mistake in Iraq by killing civilians. Again they remind me of the Mafia in Sicly . I beileve many Muslims are afraid to say how they really feel. I would think a person who renounces Islam over there would be far more looked down, if not down right rejected , than someone who renounced christianity here. Our great hope is that they will piss off the avergae Muslim and their leaders to the point where they scream enough of this crap already.

Is it a mistake? It's sick, but is it a mistake? They are doing exactly what the Viet Cong did in Vietnam to keep the locals in line and it worked in the Vietnam War. They know they need the locals to continue their terror campaign, and the means they use to keep them in line is secondary. If they manage to do that, then they will in the long run, win the war. The patience of the American public is not endless, and as they have no chance of beating the American army, this is their only hope.

Your right though, that this is their weak spot.

[Roark]

Sharia law is partly derived from local traditions (al-urf). It seems to me that Sharia is to Islam as the Amish are to Christians (in simple terms). Many modern muslims just aren't into it. I know for a fact that the majority of Australian Muslims wouldn't have a bar of it. We are an isolated bunch, but our people originate from many different countries. I don't think I can share your suspicions yet.

[Don Corleone]

Well, first let me apologize for misspelling the name of your capital city. Quite a faux pas. Second, is it your suspicion that none of the muslims in Australia believe in Sharia, or have you actually sat down with them and talked with them about it? And no, it's nothing so extraneous as Amish codes of conduct, it's more like the Book of Common Prayer.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Is it a mistake? It's sick, but is it a mistake?

It certainly is

They are doing exactly what the Viet Cong did in Vietnam to keep the locals in line and it worked in the Vietnam War.

Theres no comparison between the two no matter how hard you try to make it so. The people in the South had no love for the VC . You dont see Iraqis running to join the insurgents.

They know they need the locals to continue their terror campaign, and the means they use to keep them in line is secondary. If they manage to do that, then they will in the long run, win the war. The patience of the American public is not endless, and as they have no chance of beating the American army, this is their only hope.

It is both our weakness and our strength. Our patiece goes both ways. If you really piss us off theres no telling how hard we will strike. Lets hope it doesnt come to that.

[Roark]

I stand corrected, Don...

I spoke to one of my Muslim mates on the phone, who mentioned that they all attend a relatively liberal group of mosques. So... not a very good case study. I was under the impression that he was a fairly typical Muslim.

Also, I just read on a website (I closed the window, sorry...) that Sharia is intended for all Muslims, but that Muslims living in a non-Muslim community were exempt from some of its strictures (which explains Western Muslims somewhat). It also mentioned that many parts of the fibh (source for Sharia) are simply ignored by modern Muslims.

So, you're right about Sharia being a pillar of Islam, but my question is whether the "evangelism" of Sharia is truly driving these nasty threats that the Western world is facing at the moment. Is it still relevant and integral to the average Muslim's life, or has it become somewhat archaic? Is it maybe just a convenient power tool for the theocracies of the Islamic world?

[sharrukin]

Theres no comparison between the two no matter how hard you try to make it so. The people in the South had no love for the VC . You dont see Iraqis running to join the insurgents.

I am not trying to make anything so, and I have no idea where you get the wrong impression that I have ever done so. As far as comparisons between the two situations you are making them yourself in the above post. In neither case did the locals give whole hearted support to the insurgents, as you state. So if anyone is making such comparisons, it is you!

[LeftEyeNine]

First of all, I never and ever, as most of the muslims here do, somehow, subconsciously or desperately, support these bombings or the likes. You just like believing what you set up in your mind. And I am not responsible for changing that.

Our prime minister Erdogan was an extremist freak under the control of mildly extremist Necmettin Erbakan (he was a politician and MGK had control fortunately, that's why he was mild. And his every step was towards building a land of Sharia, he was extremist).

But Erdogan sounded really modernized before the last elections. So the Turkish folk tried him. As long as he had left good impressions at first sight, there is a Turkish saying : " It's one's life that may end, not one's nature "

Half of the population nearly lost trust in him, and it is clear that his party will lose great deal of votes next election..

@Don Corleone

Hmm, until about 85 years ago, your dreams were fulfilled in the Ottoman empire. Since then, there hasn't been peace in the Muslim world. If what you say is true, and the terrorism is caused by poverty, why were all 19 of the 9/11 hijackers 'well to do', affluent and from good families? Hell, one of the Brittish train bombers was a married school teacher with children. He had the full backing of the British social welfare system, having been born and raised there...

I have talked about three aspects of the way to extremist terrorism. You took "poverty" alone, and put a good design for it. Middle Eastern natives are easily driven into suicide attacks and extremism due to poverty.

And the ones that committed the attacks in foreign countries, are well informed about the "Westerners" deeds. His cause may not be the poverty of himself but the other ones. Accept it or not, these are the points of view from Middle Eastern countries towards you. They count you as "the conceited, wealthy gendarmes trying to play the game of which they set up the rules" . It's not my idea, however I live close enough to know what they think.

..If it's from this 'gendarme spirit of the West', why did Islamacists attack us WHILE we were defending Muslims in Kosovo.

What is this all about ? Turkish army was the first of the countries to defend Bosnians. I think you somehow are convinced with fiction like : " LeftEyeNine is a Muslim, so he would defend all Islamic countries". You'd better watch your a** while an Arab is wandering where your eyes can not see. We paid off painfully for that years ago.

Go talk to some Bosnian and ask his/her opinion's about Turkey, if you are still thinking that I dream of a Caliphate or something..

If it's that you want a 'land of your own', why do the Chechens continue to bomb Moscow, even after Moscow agreed to let Chechnia become an independent Republic?

Chechens are a really fanatically religious community. What's more they are good guerillas that makes it harder to Russian government to end this conflict. And no, Chechens are not independent completely while I am not a fan of Chechen vs. Russia thing. They are fanatics, I do not like them at all.

I'm sorry, I see a deeper pattern here. I see a condemnation of the means to achieve a goal, but not the goal itself. I see a lot of hand-wringing from muslims that they don't want the violence, but I've yet to hear one muslim renounce the goal of Sharia in the UK, or the USA, or anyplace else that it doesn't currently exist.

And I noticed, you didn't join me, when I condemned the idea of a Christian kingdom (or in your case, an Islamic Caliphate). You didn't renounce the goal of Sharia for the whole world. Perhaps you don't agree with the extremists methods, but you sure seem to agree with their justifications and their goals.

Don Corleone, my friend, leave your fiction and "perhaps" aside and hear what I say:

- All the people turning Muslim is an indicator of Apocalypse. It will happen, but soon after, the life will end, the Kur'an writes

- I am not living with dreams of Islamic Caliphate. I do not want freaks by my side talking friendly just because I have the name of the Caliphate. Forget it. Turkish moderate muslims do not carry that dream as well, I assure you.

- I can not comment on why Islamic leaders like Imams and Mullahs in foreign countries do not try an open declaration. Maybe they are frightened of being the next target of the extremists. Soudns quiet possible to me..

- The fight looks rather religious but you must be blind and deaf not to see that it contains a political struggle as well. But the fight of the religions is the last thing I would ever wish to come against each other. It does not stop and it leaves scars impossible to heal.

- I have many times declared how a moderate Muslim thinks. If one may still want to believe that I am fond of the extremists' goals, I do not care.

[Steppe Merc]

I, as a Christian can stand up and publicly renounce the aims and goals of the Holy Roman Empire. Can you as Muslims stand up and renounce the dream of the Caliphate, not just Al-Queda and their bloodthirsty way of accomplishing it, but the dream of a world under Sharia? Do you seek it or do you allow those in dar al-hab to live in peace? Are we dhimini or are we equals? And why don't moderate muslims ever mention these terms? Christians fall over themselves to apologize for the crusades... I don't see the same acknowledgement of past wrongs and dream of a new spirit of tolerance on the muslim side of the street, even when that street lies in Leeds, Yorkshire or Dearborn, Michigan. At best, I hear "don't you dare accuse us of that... you evil racist". Not exactly the best way to start a dialogue...

Don, has the Pope ever condemmed his predesecors that ordered Crusades, the Crusaders, the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Inqusitors, and the many many corrupt priests who took from the peasants what little the nobles left to them? If they did, that is good, but I thought that they never did apologize.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Don, has the Pope ever condemmed his predesecors that ordered Crusades, the Crusaders, the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Inqusitors, and the many many corrupt priests who took from the peasants what little the nobles left to them? If they did, that is good, but I thought that they never did apologize.

Yes he did. Not that he should have.

Weekend Edition - Sunday, March 12, 2000 · David Willy reports on the Pope John Paul II, who this morning in Rome apologized for the sins of Catholics going all the way back to the Crusades.

LINK


Why should he apologise for the crusades?