What the world owes Palestinians and the Left

[Don Corleone]

Showing desperate hatred against will not help it definitely, if you want me to clarify things.. That's for sure..

All the same, making veiled threats that if people criticize Islam, they should expect to be repeatedly bombed is not going to help you convince people that moderate muslims don't believe in violence. It seems to imply that you believe it acceptable to bomb civilian populations if they say things you and the muslim world don't care for. Regardless of what Gawain & PJ say about Palestinians (and let's be factual, that's what they were going on about, not all muslims), you cannot in one breath claim there is a vast majority of peaceful, non-violent muslims out there, but if you say one thing they don't like, they're ready to start bombing you without a moment's notice.

If muslims are truly moderate as you say, they won't care what offensive things are said about them, as they themselves know them to be untrue. The Lefties on this board say that Christians are Nazis and responsible for all the world's suffering on a regular basis. While I may not appreciate their sentiments, I'm not warming up to go bomb my local ACLU headquarters, and I don't make statements implying that I might be.

[LeftEyeNine]

I was nearly sure that you would misunderstand my statement about that sentence of mine. I should have explained it. I said

I tell you, anyone on this earth taking religion cover for his actions is committing the most dangerous crime ever. You seem well looking to get provoked against Islam. And if you do and grow it, expect more of those bombings, take cover. You are just getting involved by raising anger against Muslim. However, I am already convinced that you were looking for ways to spit it out, and there you have it now..

I tried to say that as long as you grow your anger, you will serve these devils' attitudes. Socio-conflict will make it like a septic wound, drive it crazy..

Don Corleone, you repeatedly and once more, claim that I find it rational somehow to get innocents bombed. Sorry, this was the last time I'd be taking your opnions valuable. I am sick of saying who I am. I AM MUSLIM AND GO TO HELL THESE BOMBERS ! Well even this very direct sentence will not benefit, I know. You take it the way you want to know it.

[Don Corleone]

LeftEyeNine, I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth. You had said that if PJ & Gawain keep 'provoking Islam', your words, not mine, they should expect a lot more bombings. How exactly are we supposed to take a statement like that?

What exactly is your point? That moderate muslims are for the most part peaceloving, but have rather frail egos and if you say something they don't like, they're all going to come out bombing away? That doesn't sound all that peaceloving to me.

I personally do not think the majority of muslims are really all that think skinned, I was suggesting, to YOU personally, that you ought not to make statements like that.

If your point was that the extremists will take offense, well, I hate to break it to you, the extremists are going to bomb people regardless of what PanzerJager and Gawain have to say about Palestinians. I don't see why anybody should curtail their speech to appease them, as they're going to take offense no matter what we dhimini have to say.

[Brenus]

Why people always think the Palestinians are Muslim. Correct me if I am wrong, but George Habach was a Christian if I remember well. And he was one of the main characters in the PLO.

And it is first time that Chirac be nominated as lefty… He won’t be happy of that…

And the multi-billionaire Osama Bin Laden most probably doesn’t recognised himself as a commy, lefty or whatever you want to qualify the people who commit the attack or support them…

Ben-Gurion, Golda Meir and the majority of the founders of Israel were commies, by the way (the Kibbutz aren’t a real capitalistic realisation and ideal)….

[LeftEyeNine]

Arrgghh !!!

*calms down*

I mean... If, say, Christian society grows anger against Muslim society living in their country, this will rip the healing wound apart. The conflict will bounce over the civilians of the country like sparkles out of a fireplace, not the governments or leaders only. This chaos will feed the evils. They'll have more serious so called "reasons" to take their rotten actions. I am making a forecast. If you still don't get it, let's count it as the lack of my English. I will not trry to explain anymore.

[Don Corleone]

I do get what you're saying, LeftEyeNine, and I don't disagree with you that namecalling & inflammatory remarks rarely get us anywhere.

But let's face facts. If the muslim world is a tinderbox, ready to sign on with Al Queda over something as silly as what PJ & Gawain have to say about the Palestinians, then there's really not much we as Westerners are going to be able to do to keep the peace. Yes, we could muzzle these two guys, but such a state of restrained rage, that could flare from something as ridiculous as this, is inherently unstable and some other perceived slight would set it off just as easily.

Maybe if I could reverse your statement, you'll understand my position better. Please note I DO NOT BELIEVE WHAT I AM SAYING HERE, I'M SAYING IT TO MAKE A POINT....

You know, Christians in the West tend to be a fairly peaceful group, but they can only take so much. If the secular fundamentalists in the ACLU continue to say bad things about Christianity, they shouldn't be surprised if they find Christians turning to violence to shut them up".

That's a pretty harsh statement (it also happens to be untrue, and one more time, I want to disavow it). But do you see my point? The ACLU may be wrong, but clearly, if Christians are ready to turn to violence to shut the ACLU up, they're not really all that peace-loving in the first place. If one nasty remark by a lawyer in the ACLU turns a bunch of Christians to violence, they weren't all that moderate to begin with...

*For those of you who don't know, the ACLU stands for the American Civil Liberties Union, an organization of secularist lawyers in the United States that support 3rd trimester abortion, outlawing religion and a lot of other nasty leftist causes*

[Roark]

LeftEyeNine, I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth.

I hate to say it, but you've made some pretty presumptuous statements in response to LeftEyeNine's posts, Don. You've suggested a couple of times lately that his posts "imply" or "suggest" something (generally re: apologia for terror acts), when they haven't addressed a question of yours as fully as they could have.

He has tried to explain a couple of times that he is against terrorism and the murder of civilians, but you seem almost intent on painting him into some kind of corner, driving at something.

Anyway, just my observation. Peace.

[LeftEyeNine]

Please note I DO NOT BELIEVE WHAT I AM SAYING HERE, I'M SAYING IT TO MAKE A POINT....

That point is where I was at since the start of this thread. I do not wish for these freaks to go on. But it is highly likely if Christian society reacts with fury...

[Don Corleone]

I hate to say it, but you've made some pretty presumptuous statements in response to LeftEyeNine's posts, Don. You've suggested a couple of times lately that his posts "imply" or "suggest" something (generally re: apologia for terror acts), when they haven't addressed a question of yours as fully as they could have.

He has tried to explain a couple of times that he is against terrorism and the murder of civilians, but you seem almost intent on painting him into some kind of corner, driving at something.

Anyway, just my observation. Peace.

I see what you mean Roark. Telling the .org at large that if the West doesn't leave Islam alone, it's going to find more bombs coming it's way is a perfectly reasonable, rationed answer.

I don't think LeftEyeNine is defending terrorists, and I never said he did. What I said was making statements such as 'defaming Islam will cause moderates to become extremists" really demeans the moderates. If they're on that shaky ice that they don't know whether terrorism is right or wrong, and all they need is one nasty post on a message board to send them off into Al-Queda's arms, then either 1) they're not really moderates or 2) as I believe, you are seriously debasing these people. This is soft racsim, and I for one have faith in the humanity of the Islamic world, and I think they can suffer a few criticisms, even some unwarranted ones, without them all reaching for a bomb.

You apparently don't. I personally believe the best way to show somebody you trust them is to be open with them. You seem to feel coddling them and telling them what they want to hear is the way to go. Fine. We can agree to disagree.

[Don Corleone]

That point is where I was at since the start of this thread. I do not wish for these freaks to go on. But it is highly likely if Christian society reacts with fury...

Absolutely right, my friend. Quid pro quo means we both wind up missing children. I couldn't agree with you more. We in the West must seek out those we can speak with and suppor them. Those we cannot, we must stop before they can hurt their countrymen or us. Believe it or not, this is what my government is up to, despite all the claims of a US oil grab, neither France, Germany or Russia has lost one Iraqi oil field lease.

[kiwitt]

Didn't Arafat recieve a Nobel Peace Prize... seems like and endorsemant to me...

Since when has "The Nobel Peace Prize" being a symbol of the left.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Since when has "The Nobel Peace Prize" being a symbol of the left.

How silly. They gave that prize to Carter also. Theres a real rightwinger.

By the way do you know the real difference bettween Christianity and Islam?

Its the same difference as between


Kneeling
and

bending over

[Roark]

I see what you mean Roark. Telling the .org at large that if the West doesn't leave Islam alone, it's going to find more bombs coming it's way is a perfectly reasonable, rationed answer.

I don't think LeftEyeNine is defending terrorists, and I never said he did. What I said was making statements such as 'defaming Islam will cause moderates to become extremists" really demeans the moderates. If they're on that shaky ice that they don't know whether terrorism is right or wrong, and all they need is one nasty post on a message board to send them off into Al-Queda's arms, then either 1) they're not really moderates or 2) as I believe, you are seriously debasing these people. This is soft racsim, and I for one have faith in the humanity of the Islamic world, and I think they can suffer a few criticisms, even some unwarranted ones, without them all reaching for a bomb.

You apparently don't. I personally believe the best way to show somebody you trust them is to be open with them. You seem to feel coddling them and telling them what they want to hear is the way to go. Fine. We can agree to disagree.

LeftEyeNine doesn't represent them. He's not their diplomat. When he made those comments, he wasn't threatening you.

His statement was reasonable, as it was simply an opinion, like this whole thread. If I'm a "soft racist" against Muslims (whatever the hell that means), then LEftEyeNine is as much so, and I'm sure you can see how ridiculous that is, him being a Muslim.

I reject your version of the issue we've been discussing, and your cheap use of exaggeration ("one nasty post on a message board to send them off into Al-Queda's arms"). You've misrepresented our opinions.

[kiwitt]

I really meant to say, "When is wanting Peace" a "Leftist" position. Even GWB and Blair were in the running for it LINK

[PanzerJaeger]

This thread only shows a mentality that is all to common in the muslim world.

You seem well looking to get provoked against Islam. And if you do and grow it, expect more of those bombings, take cover. You are just getting involved by raising anger against Muslim.

Raising anger? How dare I say a negative word against Islam, ill be sure and take cover from now on.

Seriously though, you really need to check your rhetoric. Its all fun and games until you start making jihadist threats.

[Don Corleone]

LeftEyeNine doesn't represent them. He's not their diplomat. When he made those comments, he wasn't threatening you.

His statement was reasonable, as it was simply an opinion, like this whole thread. If I'm a "soft racist" against Muslims (whatever the hell that means), then LEftEyeNine is as much so, and I'm sure you can see how ridiculous that is, him being a Muslim.

I reject your version of the issue we've been discussing, and your cheap use of exaggeration ("one nasty post on a message board to send them off into Al-Queda's arms"). You've misrepresented our opinions.

I never said he represented anyone other than himself. He said if people from the West didn't quit offending Islam, they should expect more bombings. I simply said he might want to reconsider what he said. While I might understand his position, as a non-native English speaker, and I've actually tried to forge an understanding with him separately, I'm having a hard time understanding your position here.

For some reason, I'm at a loss as to what crawled up your ass on this one, Roark. I tried pretty hard to disavow myself from the general theme of the thread and I made a suggestion to LeftEyeNine that stating bombings against them would be forthcoming if they didn't stop saying things against Islam was not the best way to suggest that Islam was a religion of Peace.

He and I are working out our issues, and here you come, claiming that I'm stuffing words in his mouth. Go back and read the thread. You speak English, I assume intelligently, you tell me what you get out of it. I was actually trying to help him make the case for moderate muslims, and tried to tell him that saying so-called moderate muslims have a hair trigger was not the way to sell them as peace-loving people. And you crawl me up one side and down the other. Why? Is your point, Roark, that Muslims have a right to be hair-triggered, and it's culturally insensitive of me to imply they shouldn't? Where are you going with this?

[Roark]

For some reason, I'm at a loss as to what crawled up your ass on this one, Roark. I tried pretty hard to disavow myself from the general theme of the thread and I made a suggestion to LeftEyeNine that stating bombings against them would be forthcoming if they didn't stop saying things against Islam was not the best way to suggest that Islam was a religion of Peace.

A lot of people have the opinion that the bombings have been aggravated / caused somewhat by the West. If you were sincerely trying to help him, as you claim, that's great, but you have been twisting his words somewhat and equating his omission of condemnations with compliance to, and approval of, these horrible acts!!

He and I are working out our issues, and here you come, claiming that I'm stuffing words in his mouth. Go back and read the thread. You speak English, I assume intelligently, you tell me what you get out of it.

Look man, I thought this was a public forum. Hence, when I thought that you were playing a tad dirty, I felt the desire (and the right) to say something.

Here's a couple of examples of what I've been trying to tell you:

All the same, making veiled threats that if people criticize Islam, they should expect to be repeatedly bombed is not going to help you convince people that moderate muslims don't believe in violence. It seems to imply that you believe it acceptable to bomb civilian populations if they say things you and the muslim world don't care for.

It IMPLIES that he believes murder of civilians is OK? That's twisting things a little, don't you think? He has stated categorically that he does not.

LeftEyeNine, while I may not agree with Gawain's or PJ's position on this particular stance, I think I should point out to you that "say nice things about Islam or expect to be bombed a lot more" is not going to win a lot of converts to the idea that Islam is a religion of peace.

He never stated this at all. You, once again, putting words in his mouth. Twisting what he has said to sound more sinister and extreme.

This is from another recent thread:

And I noticed, you didn't join me, when I condemned the idea of a Christian kingdom (or in your case, an Islamic Caliphate). You didn't renounce the goal of Sharia for the whole world. Perhaps you don't agree with the extremists methods, but you sure seem to agree with their justifications and their goals.

So he didn't respond to one part of your post, and that equates to his agreeing with their goals and justifications? BIIIIG leap there, mate. Once again, you make massive assumptions based on nothing. He didn't suggest that he agreed.

I was actually trying to help him make the case for moderate muslims, and tried to tell him that saying so-called moderate muslims have a hair trigger was not the way to sell them as peace-loving people. And you crawl me up one side and down the other. Why? Is your point, Roark, that Muslims have a right to be hair-triggered, and it's culturally insensitive of me to imply they shouldn't? Where are you going with this?

As I said, if you were sincerely trying to assist him, then that's great, but there was some nasty "Chinese whispers" being played along the way...

I don't have anything up my arse. I was just joining in the discussion, after noticing a trend in your posts. Twisting people's words, and exaggeration, really cheapens and obscures the argument. Don't take it personally, man. I don't hate you or anything.

[KukriKhan]

Our thanks to all contributors to this thread.

Thread is temporarily closed, to give everyone time to take a breath, consider their positions, and remember the principle of charity.

Thread will re-open in 8 hours.

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On further review of the most recent posts, it is clear that this thread has devolved into inflammatory personal criticism, and irrelevant joke-making. Constructive dialog on the topic having ceased, the thread will remain closed (the topics of who is responsible for, or supportive of, terrorist bombings will undoubtedly resurface in other topics).

Thanks to all posters for trying to broach this difficult subject.