"Once you strike down the path to the dark side..."Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
"Once you strike down the path to the dark side..."Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
Originally Posted by voigtkampf
Voigtkampf knows me too well. You Gelatinous Cube, you must also learn the ways of the Dark Side. Then you will be unstopable.
"We are lovers of beauty without extravagance and of learning without loss of vigor." -Thucydides
"The secret of Happiness is Freedom, and the secret of Freedom, Courage." -Thucydides
But if life cannot be measured by such a crass yardstick then human life must be something more than just a warm body.Originally Posted by Roark
A reverence for human life, to have any meaning, must incorporate the spiritual side of our lives. If not, how do we differ from cattle or chickens?
Doesn't our conduct give value to our lives, and cannot that same conduct take it away?
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
-- John Stewart Mills
But from the absolute will of an entire people there is no appeal, no redemption, no refuge but treason.
LORD ACTON
I believe there is still a case for the death sentence, take for example serial paedophiles or the failed suicide bombers. We have clear proof in the case of the suicide bombers including confessions and I don't think anyone can disagree that they deserve to die, alright I'm sure some people here will disagree.
As for the arguments that say we would deprive the criminal of his chance of reform or to show remorse, tough. Why would we want to let someone like this back into the community? I don't. Do they deserve a chance to make a new life? No, I don't think so. They deserve to be punished, not treated like some sort of victim, and if the crime is serious enough that they deserve to lose their lives then so be it, they shouldn't have done the crime.
And yes, I see this as justice not revenge, why would I want revenge on someone who committed a crime against someone I don't even know and never would know.
There is also the question of what is the value of a human life. I would say it is all dependant on whose life for example I value the life of my wife and family much more than, for example, someone who lives half a world away. Hell, if I had to make the choice I would sacrifice 1000 strangers to save my family if I had to.
The death penalty should only be used when there is no doubt whatsoever as to the guilt of the person convicted, and if the crime is very severe. In some cases the crimes comitted show that the perpetrator is not human at all, therefore does not deserve the same treatment.
www.thechap.net
"We were not born into this world to be happy, but to do our duty." Bismarck
"You can't be a successful Dictator and design women's underclothing. One or the other. Not both." The Right Hon. Bertram Wilberforce Wooster
"Man, being reasonable, must get drunk; the best of life is but intoxication" - Lord Byron
"Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes, or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison." - C. S. Lewis
Tough choice between:Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
“Your faith in geometry will be your undoing.”
“Twice the pride, double the fall.”
And, my favorite atm,
“Dark Side; be there or be square.”
@ Pindar: That is not what I was driving at. War is a different matter altogether. You are kinda insinuating that the only way to protect society from the worst of domestic criminals is to execute them, when (IMHO) this is not necessarily the case. Yes, it is more efficient, and permanent, but it is that permanency which disturbs me about capital punishment... There's no rewind button. No compensation can be made to that rare creature: the wrongly accused. It's just lights out. This is why my current opinion on capital punishment errs on the side of caution. I can't shrug off collateral damage as easily as certain others in this discussion.
The vague point that I was dancing around earlier in the thread is that I believe we should be advanced enough as a society to not have to incorporate primeval pack/herd concepts like utilitarianism and efficiency when we consider the value of a human life. Once again, I'm having trouble explaining myself, haha...
Well said, mate. At various points in my life, it is this same idea which has swayed me to be in favour of the death penalty. Forfeiture of a right to exist through despicable acts. As others on the board have said, though, I think that capital punishment exists largely as a cathartic form of retribution for society. That's not good enough for me personally, and rationally.Originally Posted by sharrukin
BROCKTON, Massachusetts (AP) -- A man lifting his infant daughter out of his car was killed in an apparent case of road rage by a motorist "who obviously exploded" and shot him four times at close range in front of dozens of witnesses, authorities said.
The victim's 10-month-old girl was covered with blood but uninjured when police found her in a car seat on the floor of the vehicle.
Walter R. Bishop, 60, who was taking medication for depression, was arrested Tuesday and charged with first-degree murder in the death of 27-year-old Sandro Andrade. He pleaded innocent and was ordered held without bail; a hearing was scheduled for August 26.
Plymouth District Attorney Timothy J. Cruz said Bishop had made a calculated decision to "shoot a man in cold blood in broad daylight on the streets of Brockton."
Police Chief Paul Studenski described it as a case of road rage.
Bishop's attorney, Kevin Reddington, said Andrade had provoked his client during a traffic altercation.
"We have a homicide that resulted from a circumstance where somebody picked a fight with an individual who obviously exploded," Reddington said. Bishop, a former soldier and security guard, had recently begun taking two medications for depression, he said.
Bishop told investigators he was driving his wife to the train station when Andrade's vehicle backed toward him on Main Street, Cruz said. The two exchanged heated words.
"He said his wife was scared, and he said he was angry at that encounter," Cruz said of Bishop. "He said he made up his mind right there that he had to do something."
After dropping his wife off, he allegedly returned to the scene of the confrontation, pointed a handgun through an open window and fired, police said.
"Pop! Pop! Pop! Pop! Four shots. It sounded like a cap gun," Louis McPhee, the manager of a car wash across the street, told The Boston Globe. "The guy was lying there in his own blood with a hole in his head and his arm still on the baby."
Bishop left before police arrived, but witnesses gave investigators his license plate number and police found him at his home.
Police said Bishop has a valid handgun license.
What vile scum eh this is why we need the death penalty
There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford
My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.
I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.
Sounds like this guy has a "Mental illness". I am sure we all know people with some level of mental illness. When they are under the influence of this, they may not think "rationally".Originally Posted by strike for the south
Currently, society does not treat "Mental Illness" with the same respect that they give to other illnesses. This is wrong and people should be treated with respect, if they have it. We should look after people with "Mental Illness", so that events like what happended above do not occur.
In the case above, some blame needs to be pointed at society for not doing enough and therefore the man is not solely to blame, and should not be "killed". However, he should be placed in a secure facility until he is "better", however long that takes.
We work to live, and to live is to, play "Total War" or drive a VR-4
[/QUOTE]Plymouth District Attorney Timothy J. Cruz said Bishop had made a calculated decision to "shoot a man in cold blood in broad daylight on the streets of Brockton.".[/QUOTE]Originally Posted by kiwitt
Ah yes a calculated decision sounds like an illness to me
There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford
My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.
I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.
Woulda been better if he didn't have ready access to a firearm...
I'm sorry, I couldn't help it... ;-)
Thats for another threadOriginally Posted by Roark
There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford
My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.
I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.
I am beginning to understand that quite a few "Americans" are really "ruthless" people and lack even any understanding.
Don't look right ? Kill them (see KKK history, Native Indian History)
Don't believe right ? Kill them (see answer to Terrorism thread)
Don't feel right in the head ? Kill them (see posts above)
...
One day. Too old ? Kill them (refer logan run).
Be wary of the direction you are heading in when you condone the state for killing individuals. One day it might be you. All it takes is a law change.
We work to live, and to live is to, play "Total War" or drive a VR-4
This isn't about race or religon its about a man who made a desicon to kill a young father with the infant in his arms. If that makes me "ruthless" so be itOriginally Posted by kiwitt
P.S I only support the death penalty for murder and only that if they try to change the law for a lesser crime ill be the first one yelling
There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford
My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.
I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.
I don't think I am being arrogant. Also I am not European.Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
Just I do not support the state having the right to kill it's own citizens, to which they have been elected to represent. As I said the "Death Penalty" is a slippery slope to follow.
In some places the "society" allows the rape of women because of some family member offence. This is wrong. Some women get stoned to death for adultery. The "Death Penalty" is from a "barbaric age", and soceity should evolve from it.
We work to live, and to live is to, play "Total War" or drive a VR-4
I'd take decapitation over the State-approved methods, anyday. Although I'd want either a guillotine or a master axeman. A botched beheading could be nasty...Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
I read somewhere recently that crucifixion is still legal in two countries... That would NOT be cool. I'll try to google some more on this.
Yeah, sorry... I knew I was being bad when I posted it... I'm not an anti-gun fanatic... honestly...Originally Posted by strike for the south
Originally Posted by kiwittSo do you support abortion? (And I am primarily talking about abortions that take place in teh 2nd and 3rd Trimester.)Originally Posted by Roak
Which is the state allowing the individual to chose to kill another human being that just happens to be in the woman's womb.
See two can play that game.
Last edited by Redleg; 08-04-2005 at 07:28.
O well, seems like 'some' people decide to ruin a perfectly valid threat. Nice going guys... doc bean
Some interesting points raised.
This my friend is crap. People need to stand up and take responsibility for their own actions, if they are unable to e.g. mentally unable to take responsibility then it is the duty of their families to do so, only in the case where there is no one to help them does society as a whole come in.Sounds like this guy has a "Mental illness". I am sure we all know people with some level of mental illness. When they are under the influence of this, they may not think "rationally".
Currently, society does not treat "Mental Illness" with the same respect that they give to other illnesses. This is wrong and people should be treated with respect, if they have it. We should look after people with "Mental Illness", so that events like what happended above do not occur.
In the case above, some blame needs to be pointed at society for not doing enough and therefore the man is not solely to blame, and should not be "killed". However, he should be placed in a secure facility until he is "better", however long that takes.
Even if he was mentally ill, he shot a man in front of his baby daughter, he needs to be punished not treated. If he can be treated at the same time then all the better but the man is a murderer, you don't put him in a hospital for six months pronounce him cured and set him free, that's just wrong.
Fair point, but, what is the value of a human life? Are all lives equally valuable?The vague point that I was dancing around earlier in the thread is that I believe we should be advanced enough as a society to not have to incorporate primeval pack/herd concepts like utilitarianism and efficiency when we consider the value of a human life. Once again, I'm having trouble explaining myself, haha...
Before we start with the "Everyone has a right to life", no they don't, if they did there would be no death, no abortion etc.
Ok, individuals. Is everyones life of equal importance, I would say that if you answeres yes then you're wrong. For example, would you place more value on the life of your wife or mother than that of a thrice convicted paedophile, I sure as hell would (strange saying that, as hell isn't sure at all, anyway) and I would say that if you don't you seriously need to sort out your values.
So I would say that there is a case for the death sentence, and the case in example may be one but I'm not sure without knowing more about it. But saying that he can't take responsibility becuase he was depressed is ridiculous.
War and capital punishment are both state sponsored killing. If one is opposed to state sponsored killing then both activities would need to be rejected. If the permanency of error is the issue: killing the innocent, this again applies to both cases. The wrong man may be convicted and subsequently executed, in war: friendly fire, collateral damaged etc. are terms used for the unintended death of innocents. The key difference between the two actions is that in a criminal trial, evidence has been presented and the convicted has been found guilty based upon that evidence. In a war scenario: victims of friendly fire, collateral damage etc. have no guilt that can be assigned. Further, such occurs on a far greater scale. It is therefore a very strained view that would recognize war as legitimate but exclude capital punishment.Originally Posted by Roark
Some of the bedrock justifications for government are derived from utility and efficiency arguments. The tenor of your rhetoric would seem to suggest we should move beyond such notions. This of course is an anarchist view.ue point that I was dancing around earlier in the thread is that I believe we should be advanced enough as a society to not have to incorporate primeval pack/herd concepts like utilitarianism and efficiency when we consider the value of a human life. Once again, I'm having trouble explaining myself, haha...
The taking of human life is of such importance that it is reserved to the state alone. It thereby reflects the measure of the collective will. The value of human life can be measured by the degree of retribution brought to bare to preserve its sanctity. A system that does not demand the greatest sacrifice from those who have taken life violates the basic equity that informs systems of justice.
"We are lovers of beauty without extravagance and of learning without loss of vigor." -Thucydides
"The secret of Happiness is Freedom, and the secret of Freedom, Courage." -Thucydides
Originally Posted by kiwitt
A society that does not have the wherewithal to protect itself in the strongest terms necessary against internal threat will not be able muster the strength of will to protect itself against external threat. Like the prim little girl who squirms when her shepard uncle shoots a wolf moving on his sheep: those who through urbanization and appealing to the vagaries of the sophisticate have cut themselves off from the realities of life illustrate in stark fashion the social maturity that separates the slave from the free man.
Last edited by Pindar; 08-04-2005 at 16:46.
"We are lovers of beauty without extravagance and of learning without loss of vigor." -Thucydides
"The secret of Happiness is Freedom, and the secret of Freedom, Courage." -Thucydides
He'd have hit him with the car instead.Originally Posted by Roark
I don't see the initial post as an argument against the death penalty but rather for reform of the criminal trial process.
The war argument is a good one.
No, this is why we don't need handguns...Originally Posted by strike for the south
"What, have Canadians run out of guns to steal from other Canadians and now need to piss all over our glee?"
- TSM
No we need them to be safe from wackos like him.
Formerly ceasar010
The right to kill in defense isn't the same as killing in retribution. Who are you protecting by killing someone who is already locked away from society for the rest of their life?Originally Posted by Pindar
I agree, prison should be an unpleasant experience to serve as a deterrent. For non-lifers, they should have strict, harsh treatment with the opportunity for education or learning job skills. For lifers, just warehouse them.Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
Last edited by Xiahou; 08-04-2005 at 19:33.
"Don't believe everything you read online."
-Abraham Lincoln
Meh, I've read that, as it stands, it's cheaper to put someone away for life than it is to execute someone with all of th legal challenges and appeals involved. And once they implement emperor Xiahou's prison reforms it could cost 1/3 what it currently does to keep prisoners.Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
"Don't believe everything you read online."
-Abraham Lincoln
bullets cost to much... a rope is cheap and can be used again.
Formerly ceasar010
so their kids can steal one and shoot his friend for loosing a game of dragonball on the PS2Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
We do not sow.
Not if part of the training programs include eddie eagle for kids. http://www.nrahq.org/safety/eddie/
Formerly ceasar010
State sponsored killing is the common link. Further, retribution and defense are not mutually exclusive positions. Equity demands proper redress for murder. Moreover, murder by the act alone is an attack on society. Society is justified in removing that threat, but is under no obligation to maintain a determined threat indefinitely.Posted by Pindar
Is this an argument that society doesn't have the right to kill in order to protect itself? If so, then you must support disbanding the military. If not, then you have already placed a value over and above the preservation of life.
Now if society does have the right to kill this should apply to threats within as well as without.
Originally Posted by Xiahou
If man is a social animal then forced removal to the periphery of society for life is a barbarism.
Last edited by Pindar; 08-04-2005 at 20:26.
"We are lovers of beauty without extravagance and of learning without loss of vigor." -Thucydides
"The secret of Happiness is Freedom, and the secret of Freedom, Courage." -Thucydides
Both solutions remove the threat to society- one does not needlessly kill a person, the other does. Again, the idea with the military and defense is necessary killing. I don't believe that "take no prisoners" in combat is considered an appropriate approach to combat anymore. Nor in modern society are you justified in hunting down your mugger to shoot them after the fact.Originally Posted by Pindar
So death is better?If man is a social animal then forced removal to the periphery of society for life is a barbarism.
"Don't believe everything you read online."
-Abraham Lincoln
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