This will make you proud(story about a marine in iraq)

[Don Corleone]

Well, I repsect you Rasafaros, which will have to do in this case.

[rasoforos]

So Im led to believe you wouldve much rather have the marines be blown to bits instead of fighting valiantly like this one did...Talk about blind hate

I would have the marines ready to defend their country if it is in danger. And I would have them to give their life to do so. No matter how bravely one fights, if the reasons are unjust, he loses his right.


In other words I would have the marines at home and ready to defend, than 10.000 miles away. This way noone gets blown to bits...


Dont put words in my mouth. I cant understand how I can blindly hate, and how I would want the marines dead, when I say that the marines shouldnt be there in the first place...



What kind of twisted logic combines pacifist with the desire to see people dead?

[sharrukin]

Rasoforos

Bush is a long way from being my favorite guy, but any criticism you have for him or the way he presented the war, his diplomacy (or lack thereof), his honesty, character, or American foreign policy in general do not fall on the shoulders of some grunt in the army. Not in any rational world at least.

He is a soldier, and soldiers carry out orders. They are not gentlemen philosophers who ponder long and hard on the best course of action, nor do they spend their time perfecting arguments so they can disarm the enemy with a few well chosen words. They are there to break the will of the enemy, and they use carefully applied violence to do so. How weak or strong the enemy is has no bearing on the subject because fairness has no place in war.

They (western soldiers, not Iraqi's) are required to act with honour and decency. Usually they do, sometimes they don't. They are not terrorist, mercenaries, Rambo, or anything of the sort. What he did was courageous, even if you think the war is an idiotic endeavor, which I do. That does not change what he did, any more than the nature of the murderous Iraqi regime (and no the Iraqi and US governments are not moral equivalents) , would change the courageous conduct of an Iraqi soldier. He is a Hero. Perhaps, in your opinion, a Hero in a misguided cause, but a Hero nevertheless.

[Redleg]

One who gets paid to fight, not to protect his country, but to attack another country for economic reasons is a mercenary. I understand providing compensation for people who are assigned to defend a country. However, when people are assigned to occupy countries so a bunch of politicians get elected and a bunch of multinationals get rich , and they do so because they dont wanna lose their job, then they are nothing but mercenaries.

That does not make the individuals who enlist in the United States Military Mercenaries. Your defination is wrong. A mercenary is something entirely different then what any soldier in any country's military is.

To try to give them any more credit than that is to try to give credit to the Al Qaeda terrorists ( as the pro-war people on the other side do and have made them 'heroes' as well). Its sickening on both sides to call such people heroes or even soldiers

Your entitled to your opinion. But at least call soldiers what they are - not some hate filled ideological views that is nothing other then an attempt to demonize others because you don't agree with their actions or in this case the politics behind the reasons for those servicemen being in harms way.

Of course I cannot change your mind, and I cannot change theirs. I respect your oppinion and I hope you respect mine.

I only respect your opinion that does not demonize soldiers who are doing exactly what their country has asked of them. Call the politics behind the situation anything you want - but mercenaries are not what these soldier, marines, seaman, and airman are - and I suspect you know that. But because you disagree with the politics of the war - you desire to demonize the servicemen that must fullfil their obligations to their country.

Next thing you will be calling them something else.

Edit: Hell Rasoforos by this logic - those serving on Peacekeeping missions across the globe are nothing but mercs - since its not their nation they are defending or preventing unrest in.

[Steppe Merc]

Marines and other army regulars aren't mercanaries. Mercanaries aren't people who fight for one country, the one that they are born in. Mercanaries are often pre constructed groups of soldiers who often fight in places where they aren't from for countries that they aren't from (though ocassinally there are native mercs through out history).
If Marines were mercanaries, then they wouldn't retire so quickly, and they'd be in constant battle. Before Afghinstan and Iraq, I think some Marines and Army and Navies were not in actual fighting. A true mercanary would probably have moved to a place that is currently at war in order to get higher prices for his skills. This is not so for US military troops.

[Xiahou]

Wow...


...mercenary goes to Iraq....

...becomes a state terrorist...

...gets ambushed by an army about a million times weaker than his...

...plays John Rambo...

...kills a lot of people, not in defense of his country ( unlike the dead ones)...

...for reasons that have long since proved to be lies...

...and gets called a hero.

Just like Sgt. York.... the monsters.
note: That's sarcasm.

[Redleg]

Just like Sgt. York.... the monsters.
note: That's sarcasm.

And those Americans who were occuping the Philipines when the Japanese attacked - by Rasoforos logic - those Americans and Philipinos who died on the Battan Death March had it coming since they were the occupation force and the supporters of the occupation force - they were all mercenaries because the Philipines were taken from Spain because of Yellow Journalism of the turn of the century.

Yep someone has taken thier idealogical hate of the Bush Administration a little to far - and it deserves nothing but ridicule for how it demonizes servicemen.

If either one of my grandfather's saw such a statement - they would go ballastic - since they both lost friends in the Philipines.

[lars573]

And those Americans who were occuping the Philipines when the Japanese attacked - by Rasoforos logic - those Americans and Philipinos who died on the Battan Death March had it coming since they were the occupation force and the supporters of the occupation force - they were all mercenaries because the Philipines were taken from Spain because of Yellow Journalism of the turn of the century.

Yep someone has taken thier idealogical hate of the Bush Administration a little to far - and it deserves nothing but ridicule for how it demonizes servicemen.

If either one of my grandfather's saw such a statement - they would go ballastic - since they both lost friends in the Philipines.

That is about the wrost parallel you could have chosen. The Americans in the Philipines were there because the Philipino government asked them too stay and protect them. A Philipino government the US had tried to crush several times in the 20's, but couldn't cause it had popular backing.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

That is about the wrost parallel you could have chosen. The Americans in the Philipines were there because the Philipino government asked them too stay and protect them.

They asked us to invade and rescue them from Spain ? Or do you mean they asked us to stay and help protect them from the Japs or that they asked us to invade again and remove the Japs? Exactly what Phillipino governemtnn are you speaking if. Heck I served three moths there I never realised I was a mercenary..

[Gawain of Orkeny]

That is about the wrost parallel you could have chosen. The Americans in the Philipines were there because the Philipino government asked them too stay and protect them.

They asked us to invade and rescue them from Spain ? Or do you mean they asked us to stay and help protect them from the Japs or that they asked us to invade again and remove the Japs? Exactly what Phillipino governemtnn are you speaking if. Heck I served three moths there I never realised I was a mercenary..

[Redleg]

That is about the wrost parallel you could have chosen. The Americans in the Philipines were there because the Philipino government asked them too stay and protect them. A Philipino government the US had tried to crush several times in the 20's, but couldn't cause it had popular backing.

Actually it is not - since we took the Philipines from Spain by force and then remained there as occupiers for many years.

There are even others - such as the Korean War.

Then there is Bosina and Kosovo.

There are many parallels I could of used that would fit - but I chose one that shows exactly how ridiculous his statement is because the Philipines were indeed taken from Spain through an act of war that was based partly on Yellow Journalism of the turn of the century. It was occupied for many years without the consent of the Philipino people. And then turned over to the philipino people as a protectate (SP) with the promise after a certain time period that it was going to be its own country.

Lots of parallels can be drawn between the two.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish-American_War

For several centuries Spain's position as a world power had been slipping away. By the late nineteenth century the nation was left only a few scattered possessions in the Pacific, Africa, and the West Indies. Much of the empire had gained its independence and a number of the areas still under Spanish control were clamoring to do so. Guerrilla forces were operating in the Philippines, and had been present in Cuba for decades. The Spanish government did not have the financial resources or the manpower to deal with these revolts and thus turned to expedients of building concentration camps (in Cuba) to separate the rebels from their rural base of support. The Spaniards also carried out many executions of suspected rebels and harshly treated villages and individuals thought to be supporting them. The war was a total war with both Cuban rebel and Spanish troops burning and destroying infrastructure, crops, tools, livestock, and anything else that might aid the enemy. Nevertheless, by 1897 the rebels had mostly defeated the Spanish. They were firmly in control of the countryside and the Spanish were holed up in urban centers.

These events in Cuba coincided in the 1890s with a battle for readership between the American newspaper chains of Hearst and Pulitzer. Hearst's style of "yellow journalism" would outdo Pulitzer's, and he infamously used the power of his press to influence American opinion in favor of war. Despite the documented fact that real atrocities were commited in Cuba, and that a real rebellion was being fought against Spanish rule, Hearst nevertheless often fabricated stories or just simply tainted them in highly inflammatory language. Hearst published sensationalized tales of atrocities which the "cruel Spanish" (see Black Legend) were inflicting on the "hapless Cubans". Outraged by the "inhumanity" of the Spanish, Americans were stirred up to pushing for an "intervention", which even the most jaded hawks, like a young Theodore Roosevelt, would treat as a mostly dress-up affair. Hearst is famously quoted in his response to a request by his illustrator Frederic Remington to return home from an uneventful and docile stay in Havana, writing: "Please remain. You furnish the pictures and I'll furnish the war."

There were, however, more genuine pressures pushing towards war. Faced with defeat, and a lack of money and resources to continue fighting Spanish occupation, Cuban revolutionary and future president Tomás Estrada Palma secured $150 million dollars from a US banker to purchase Cuba's independence, but Spain refused. He then deftly negotiated and propagandized his cause in the U.S. Congress, eventually securing the bill for US intervention.

The United States Navy had recently grown considerably, but it was still untested, and many old war dogs were eager to test and use their new tools. The Navy had drawn up plans for attacking the Spanish in the Philippines over a year before hostilities broke out. The end of western expansion and of large-scale conflict with Native Americans also left the Army with little to do, and army leadership hoped that some new task would come. From an early date, many in the United States had felt that Cuba was "rightly" theirs. The so-called theory of manifest destiny made the island just off the coast of Florida seem an attractive candidate for American "expansion". Much of the island's economy was already in American hands, and most of its trade, much of which was black market, was with the U.S. Some business leaders pushed for conflict as well. In the words of Senator John M. Thurston of Nebraska: "War with Spain would increase the business and earnings of every American railroad, it would increase the output of every American factory, it would stimulate every branch of industry and domestic commerce."

In Spain, the government was not entirely averse to war. The U.S. was an unproven power, while the Spanish navy, however decrepit, had a glorious history, and it was thought it could be a match for the U.S. There was also a widely held notion among Spain's aristocratic leaders that the United States' ethnically mixed army and navy could never survive under severe pressure.

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippines

After the Spanish-American War in 1898, Spain ceded the Philippines, Cuba, Guam, and Puerto Rico to the United States for US $20 million through the 1898 Treaty of Paris. On June 12, 1898, the Filipinos, led by Emilio Aguinaldo, declared independence from Spain. This led to rebel wars and revolution during the Philippine-American War which officially ended in 1901, though sporadic fighting continued until 1913. The Phillipines became a U.S. territory with little self-government until 1935, when its status was upgraded to that of a U.S. Commonwealth. During the Commonwealth years, Philippines sent a non-voting Delegate to the United States House of Representatives, as the District of Columbia, Guam, Puerto Rico, and the United States Virgin Islands currently do. De jure independence for the Philippines was finally granted in 1946, after the Japanese had occupied the islands during World War II.

Like I said lots of parallels.

Its not hard to show how ridiculous his statement is - and how its based upon demonizing arguements to inflame those who he disagrees with.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Sounds heroic to me. The one Redleg posted even more so.

[Tribesman]

Nice site , but who are all those people in the body bags? I never realised so many coilition troops had been killed at one time period in one area ,why are so many of the troops not issued with desert gear ? oh and surely they could have got a real picture of a Humvee , possibly without the nice red cross on the side . Oh yeah and change the soundtrack , it sucks .

As someone mentioned the Spanish-American war , wasn't that a war that was started over a pile of invented bullshit that was sold to the population aswell ?
I do like the good Senators thoughts on that war........
War with Spain would increase the business and earnings of every American railroad, it would increase the output of every American factory, it would stimulate every branch of industry and domestic commerce."

[Azi Tohak]

I would have the marines ready to defend their country if it is in danger. And I would have them to give their life to do so. No matter how bravely one fights, if the reasons are unjust, he loses his right.

Right to what?

mer·ce·nar·y

Motivated solely by a desire for monetary or material gain.
Hired for service in a foreign army.

At: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=mercenary

The soldiers are doing what they can to keep the country from turning back into what it has been for 5,000 years. There are some bad apples (God knows we've all heard enough about them), but most of them are just like you, wanting to do what is right. They follow their orders. They cannot decide policy, only our own (idiot) politicians can do that.

And before someone brings up the SS during WWII, remember, they did what they were told (and usually brainwashed) to do. But after that war, no common soldiers were tried. Only their leaders who told the troops to do what they did. For some reason, after the most horrible war in history, the Allies (well, maybe not the USSR) understood what the common soldiers of the enemy had done. They did not have to like it, or respect it, but to try those troops for carrying out their orders is foolish. (modern) Armies are built upon a chain of command that dictates those below must obey those above.

Demonizing troops for doing their job is ghastly. Hate their leaders, but leave the good men and women out of your tirades.

Azi

[Divinus Arma]

I remember when this whole event came down after the fact. Of course, I'm the only one here who is a Marine (except for Former Marine Gawain and I'll even give credit to Marine hopeful Strike for the South), so I actually heard about this a long long time ago.

Good stuff and all true. Now THAT is how an officer is supposed to lead!


You leftys are so full of hate and fear. But I'm not worried, your misery won't spread to the rest of us.

God bless America and her United States Marines.

Semper Fi

[Divinus Arma]

Wow...


...mercenary goes to Iraq....

...becomes a state terrorist...

...gets ambushed by an army about a million times weaker than his...

...plays John Rambo...

...kills a lot of people, not in defense of his country ( unlike the dead ones)...

...for reasons that have long since proved to be lies...

...and gets called a hero.


And all this dispayed in the most fake and brain dead way...

...it goes to show the IQ of some people and how they are content to live in 'movies' with 'good and evil' people and how they d face withdrawal symptoms if this propaganda is withdrawn...

At the same time 25.000 innocents died by state terrorism action, noone remembers their names, and all they got was the exchange of an American placed dictator for an american placed Quesling government.

Hi. I am a U.S. Marine. snip ... ad hominem attack removed - Ser Clegane
But guess what. You have the right to say whatever you want. How lucky for you, because you are in a country that allows free speech.

I am really really tempted to take this thread down in flames... I'll resist.


Instead, I will provide some insight into my world. As a U.S. Marine.


When Afghanistan rolled around, I demanded to be sent. I volunteered with enthusiasm. Why? Because it was the right thing to do. And while I was there I met local people just like you and me. Who were beaten by the Taliban and thrown in jail because their beards were too short. Women were whipped. People were killed. No one could speak freely.

Did I make big bucks? Nope. Did money even occur to me? Nope. I volunteered just becasue it was the right thing to do.

When Iraq came, I demanded to be sent. I volunteered again with enthusiasm. But guess what? I was turned down! They had enough volunteers.

We get paid very little for what we do, but it isn't the pay that matters. And the left calls it brainwashing becasue they can't explain why someone would sacrifice their life for the right thing. "It's so unnatural, that it can't be real" you say. Wrong. It cannot be real for you. Because you are a coward. You see danger and run. You would turn our countries and way of life over to dictators.

Mercenary. Sure. Right. Congratulations, I have never put anyone on ignore before.

[Kanamori]

Well, when I was in Charleston again last week, I saw the Medal of Honor commemeration at Patriot's Point in Mt. Pleasant and a description of what each recipient did to get the Medal. To get one, you must be well beyond courageous or skilled; you must be totally selfless. Perhaps I should post some pictures when I get a day off work

[Ser Clegane]

intermission

I would like to keep this thread open as I think that the question of when and and how soldiers who have shown courage in battle should be honored is a valid and intersting one.
I respect that fact that this is also an emotional issue, given the fact that we have patrons that served or still serve in the army and considering the nature of the war in question.

However, I will not accept personal attacks in this discussion. The same goes for obvious baits like implying that army members in general are "terrorists" or "mercenaries".

Thanks for your cooperation

Ser Clegane

[PanzerJaeger]

We get paid very little for what we do, but it isn't the pay that matters. And the left calls it brainwashing becasue they can't explain why someone would sacrifice their life for the right thing. "It's so unnatural, that it can't be real" you say. Wrong. It cannot be real for you. Because you are a coward. You see danger and run. You would turn our countries and way of life over to dictators.

Great post! All true Americans greatly appreciate what youve done and have the utmost respect for you. You are a modern hero in a world sorely lacking in good people who will stand up for what is right. (You would think some people who have had to deal with dictators in recent history would understand how much pain and suffering they cause. )

Dont let the leftist traitors in this country and the anti-american foreigners get to you. They are beneath you - worthless in comparison. "Coward" is a compliment to those.. people..

We're eternally grateful you picked up the sword when its so easy these days to earn more money and "live easier" in the private sector, and we wont forget it!

[Ser Clegane]

However, I will not accept personal attacks in this discussion. The same goes for obvious baits like implying that army members in general are "terrorists" or "mercenaries".

Dont let the leftist traitors in this country and the anti-american foreigners get to you. They are beneath you - worthless in comparison. "Coward" is a compliment to those.. people..

OK - obviously not everybody bothers to read my posts.

Thread closed