Black pastors seek gay marriage ban amid family issues

[rasoforos]

religeon might make sheep, but im not religeous, merelfy faithful

I live in the world, but am not of this world, my home is elsewhere, im just here for a bit of work before im due home so to speak.

And if u want the religous veiw, not the "natural" veiw, god created man AND women, not man and man, or woman and woman. and he gave us our bits uniqe with reason, and also created the feelings that we get when we use these tools as intended. i mean why is it a man can only get pleasure by sticking his part into a hole, and women by filling thier hole with a man shaped bit... (keeping this as G rated as possible), could it be that our organs were designed for a specific purpose? isnt that radical!

that and God commanded men not to have sexual relations with other men, and same for women, it is a sin, and like all sin the penalty is death, yet if we accept christs gift of forgivness, then we will live eternal life. and heck no-one is perfect, we have all sinned and fallen short of the mark, so if we all want this eternal life we need to accept christ. Liars, murderers, homosexuals, myself, we are all sinners, all in the same boat, unless we accep his gift of forgivness

anyway, enough preaching for now :p

Yeah yeah but all that is from a religious ground. Its all good and well in a theocracy but in a free country it is just plain nonsence.

Also it takes some things for granted while its ommiting others. Infanticide is also advocated by God on occasions as well as revenge. The inferiority of women is clearly stated and slavery appears as something so natural that the original text mentions people as 'slaves of God'. If we were to take all thats in the bible as granted then it would be a very bad world indeed.

I dont want to argue. I have stated my oppinion. If you need to asnwer do so but I will leave it here.

[Steppe Merc]

It doesn't. But it's not just a Christian doing this, or a bunch of Christians. It is a church. If a bunch of people from church wanted to lobby something, go ahead. But by involving the whole church and the church leader, that crosses the line between citizens getting involved in religon.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

It doesn't. But it's not just a Christian doing this, or a bunch of Christians. It is a church. If a bunch of people from church wanted to lobby something, go ahead. But by involving the whole church and the church leader, that crosses the line between citizens getting involved in religon.

But its ok for secualrist pro abortion people. Again tell me how does religion turn your ideas to shite and worthlessness? There is no line between citizens getting involved in religon. We are all citizens so are you saying religous people should not be citizens?

[Alrowan]

heh interesting skew you have there, though i wonder how much u actually know of the bible to claim any of this?

time to rebut one by one with ease, the Infanticide you might be talking of is the passover? well lets look at it this way, here we have a people taking on the results of thier irresponsible leader who refused to listen to God when he spoke through moses, actions = consequence, and we must all accept the responsibility for our actions , there is a lesson in ithis too

revenge in the bible is not revenge born of hate it is justice, there is no revenge, God clearly states his case in the bible and the cause of his punnishment on those who are disobedient

women are not classed as inferior at all, please read a little more :p they are in fact told to obey thier husbands, but husbands are also told to respect thier wives. In a traditional relationship this is good, as the husband is the provider for the family, the wife the caretaker of the household. If and when women chose to question the mans judgment marrige fails and falls apart. Though on the other side of the coin, a man MUST be responsible for the results of all his decisions regarding his family and his wife/life. too bad man is never responsible today eh? *points his finger a little*

and this literal translation to slaves of god is about as phoney as the reasons for the war in iraq, the literal translation is actually to become ministers of gods word, and to minister is to serve, hence servants of god, never is it mentioned we are slaves.

anyway, i love to see people try to rip at christians and the authenticity of the bible etc, most have read like 2 passages, ignored the context and blurted out some obscure nonsense :p

[Alrowan]

It doesn't. But it's not just a Christian doing this, or a bunch of Christians. It is a church. If a bunch of people from church wanted to lobby something, go ahead. But by involving the whole church and the church leader, that crosses the line between citizens getting involved in religon.

hahahahahaha well all a church is, is a body of christians, members of the same club so to speak...

so let me ask you this, if you are involved in a political party, you cant lobby because the political party is just like a religeon, with thier ideal as thier god, therefore its as much a religeon as christianity!

you cant exlude a body of peoples opinions just because they get thier moral judgment from somewhere, if you did the whole democratic system would colapse, as no-one would have the right to say anything

BTW, FYI

re·li·gion Audio pronunciation of "religion" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-ljn)
n.

1.
1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

[Steppe Merc]

Alrowan, the idea of women obeying points strongly that they are inferior, and that is wrong. All sexs are equal, to continue to push the old fashioned male provide is not only foolish, it is sexist.

But its ok for secualrist pro abortion people. Again tell me how does religion turn your ideas to shite and worthlessness? There is no line between citizens getting involved in religon. We are all citizens so are you saying religous people should not be citizens?

I'm saying that they shouldn't push their ideas that are based soley on religon on people. Religous pushes are often restrictive for everyone, while most of the things that they oppose has absouletly no effect on them, and is none of their business.

Alrowan, are you trying to tell me that every last single church member believes exactly what their pastors are saying? Every single one?

[Alrowan]

i never said anywhere all church people beleive what thier pastors are saying, i am saying that all christians believe what God is saying through his word. If a pastors teaching doesnt line up with the gospel, then he is a false teacher, and breaking some of Gods strictest laws

[Alrowan]

I'm saying that they shouldn't push their ideas that are based soley on religon on people. Religous pushes are often restrictive for everyone, while most of the things that they oppose has absouletly no effect on them, and is none of their business.

a bit like the gay marrige movment, its a religous push (as defined by definintion 4) that is restrictive (to gays) and is opposed to the lack of legal and RELIGiOUS aknowledgment of thier unions...


hmm why do gays so desperatly want to be married? as far as i know marrige is a religious institution adopted by the state, and yet the gays biggest opposition is religious groups...?!?

what they should be pushing for is a "civil union" act, where they can be legally accepted as a legally entitled relationship for tax purposes etc.

or they can just do as mormons and scientologists did, and make thier own phoney religion, then have them accept the union of gays, heck it IS america after all, stranger things have happened

[Goofball]

anyway, i love to see people try to rip at christians and the authenticity of the bible etc, most have read like 2 passages, ignored the context and blurted out some obscure nonsense :p

And I love it when Christians try to win arguments by quoting the Bible. Dr. Seuss's collected works contain much more relevant commentary on morality and human interaction than that old bunch of fairy tales.

[scooter_the_shooter]

Don't worry about what the atheist say...they laugh now but once they stand before the lord they won't be.

[Alrowan]

aye, kind of ironic though, spend thier whole lives trying to disprove this that and everything, yet in the end they finally realise they were wrong all along. shame the devil cclaims so many, but deciet is his tool

[Byzantine Prince]

Ah yes... the lord...

You mean the same lord that in according to the Bible, condones the killing of homosexuals? That lord? Or is it the one the one that blesses the ones with slaves? I really hope it's not this one. Because, I kid you not, those are provable with quotes from the Bible.

I think I'll be happy if I go hell. Most people there will be rational and hopefully liberal. We'll party like it's 1989!

[Alrowan]

I think I'll be happy if I go hell. Most people there will be rational and hopefully liberal. We'll party like it's 1989!

assuming you know what hell is...


its reffered to as the pit, also a place of utter lonliness, so get comfortable living in utter lonliness, cus thats what will happen, for eternity...

[Steppe Merc]

Hell is an interesting idea. Most of what we think of it came from later Christians, as opposed to the actual written dogma. As well as Dante's inferno...

i never said anywhere all church people beleive what thier pastors are saying, i am saying that all christians believe what God is saying through his word. If a pastors teaching doesnt line up with the gospel, then he is a false teacher, and breaking some of Gods strictest laws

That's not what I'm talking about. The people mentioned in the articale are religous leaders representing their churches. Does every last on of their church members agree 100% what they say, all of the time? It's not like they were elected by the church members to speak for them.

or they can just do as mormons and scientologists did, and make thier own phoney religion, then have them accept the union of gays, heck it IS america after all, stranger things have happened

Phoney religon? As opposed to a not phoney one?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

That's not what I'm talking about. The people mentioned in the articale are religous leaders representing their churches. Does every last on of their church members agree 100% what they say, all of the time? It's not like they were elected by the church members to speak for them.

Do you think that the members of the church are then forced to vote as their leaders say or be excommunicated? What is your point here?

[Steppe Merc]

My point is is that the Church is not just like a club of political friends. If so, then they would all have had the same political ideals, which is not so. Thus, I don't think that the pastor has the right to speak for their church, rather as just a random person.

This in particular is what I mean:

The coalition is a group of 40 black pastors, representing congregations numbering in the tens of thousands throughout the state of Texas, who support the Federal Marriage Amendment.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Thus, I don't think that the pastor has the right to speak for their church, rather as just a random person.

Their speaking TO their church not FOR it.

[Steppe Merc]

Well that isn't much better. How can they talk about politics in church? Aren't they just supposed to talk about god and the bible and stuff?
If they did it outside of church that would be fine, but religous instutiutions themselves shouldn't get itself involved in politics. Religous people can, and should, but not in the actual church.

[Don Corleone]

My point is is that the Church is not just like a club of political friends. If so, then they would all have had the same political ideals, which is not so. Thus, I don't think that the pastor has the right to speak for their church, rather as just a random person.

This in particular is what I mean:

Steppe, 9 times out of 10, I find a lot of merit in what you have to say. But in this one, you're way off base. Of course a minister has the right to speak on behalf of the spiritual beliefs of his congregation. This would be like saying that the president of NOW has no right to speak on behalf of feminists (let alone she claims to speak on behalf of all women). This is why it's very important to most Christians which church they belong to. We spend a lot of time settling in and finding the right fit, so that when my minister stands up and says "All people at St. Timothy's back me on this", she's right.

[Don Corleone]

Well that isn't much better. How can they talk about politics in church? Aren't they just supposed to talk about god and the bible and stuff?
If they did it outside of church that would be fine, but religous instutiutions themselves shouldn't get itself involved in politics. Religous people can, and should, but not in the actual church.

This is even worse! Now you're claiming we Christians have to maintain a religious life and and everyday life, and we have to keep the two separate. If you believe in a God, that WILL impact your life and your views on ordinary affairs, I hate to break it to you. This idea that anybody who believes in an a reality beyond this one must recuse themself from politics or political discussions is very dangerous and is the precise reason WHY the founding fathers put Freedom OF religion into the first ammendment. Who are you to say "well, you kooks make me nervous with your beliefs, so if you believe in anything, you're not allowed to participate in our republic"?

[Steppe Merc]

No, I just don't think Church is the part where they should be talking about it, that's all.

[Don Corleone]

Okay, well, I don't think coffee houses or student unions is where they should be talking about politics. So if you bar my right to discuss politics at my church, I will bar your right to discuss politics at your coffee house and in your student union.

This all stems from the fact that the Left fears religion, because you buy the hype that Christians are 100% Republican. Far from it. Christ would identify with neither the Republican nor the Democratic party. Many Christians DO NOT vote Republican, in fact, in banning religiously inclined people from politics, you'd lose as many voters as you'd gain. Who do you think the Sojourners, and most urban Catholics for that matter, vote for?

[Steppe Merc]

Well in coffee houses and in student unions, I believe there can be descenting opinons. In a church, unless someone is going to stand up and argue with the minister about politics, it's just one person's view, possibely presented as fact. Perhaps it doesn't matter that much, but it's not quite the same (I think).
Though I do sort of see what you are saying.

[Don Corleone]

Steppe, repeat after me. Not all Christian churches are outreach programs of Bob Jones University. I have a hispanic woman as my minister, and I go to a Methodist church, for crying out loud. About as mainstream as you can get. You have to stop thinking that you have the inside scoop on what churches are like, because you clearly don't. You've bought the media's deception hook, line and sinker. The political debates at my church get more contentious than anyplace else I've ever been, including here in the .org! I'd consider it rude to take a poll, but I would guess there's more Democrats than Republicans at my church, but neither are in a minority, and neither are particularly shy about their views.

[Steppe Merc]

Ok, so I was wrong in my view of churches.
I still am uncomfortable about laws that are based soley off of religon (yes, I know it is possible to oppose gay marriage on a non religous purpose). But that's me.

[PanzerJaeger]

By Goof,

And I love it when Christians try to win arguments by quoting the Bible. Dr. Seuss's collected works contain much more relevant commentary on morality and human interaction than that old bunch of fairy tales.

Thats pretty insulting..

You really think Dr. Seuss' books contain more morality than the ten commandments and the teachings of Jesus. I dont care if your Christian or not, Jesus' teachings were very moral, no?

And where do you think Dr. Seuss got his perceptions of morality? You dont think they might be based on judeo-christian teachings do you?

[Azi Tohak]

Nope PJ, Dr. Seuss got his morals from eating green eggs and ham.

(Now if that won't screw with your mind, I don't know what will!)

I still am uncomfortable about laws that are based soley off of religon (yes, I know it is possible to oppose gay marriage on a non religous purpose). But that's me.

So what laws do you propose that don't have to do with religion? Heck, I'll even narrow it down... what laws would you like that have nothing to do with the 10 commandments?

Azi

[Goofball]

By Goof,

Thats pretty insulting..

You really think Dr. Seuss' books contain more morality than the ten commandments and the teachings of Jesus. I dont care if your Christian or not, Jesus' teachings were very moral, no?

According to Christian morality they were.

But since you ask, for the most part I agree with what JC had to say. But I wasn't just referring to the New Testament, I was also referring to the Old. When you combine the two, you get very confusing and mixed messages. For example: on the one hand you have fire and brimstone and all that eye for an eye/tooth for a tooth crap; on the other hand you have Jesus telling you to love your enemy.

No, in all seriousness, I think Dr. Seuss books form a much better guide to living a good life than the Bible. They hit on just about everything: caring for the environment, diversity, the value of individuality, and the list goes on.

And where do you think Dr. Seuss got his perceptions of morality? You dont think they might be based on judeo-christian teachings do you?

I do not think so, PJ old sod;

Geisel's ideas didn't come from God.

Secular humanism was more his thing,

it made his bell go Ding! Ding! Ding!

Thrown off the school paper because of women and juice,

he began using the pen-name of "Seuss."

His later stories were ahead of their time,

and many believed they were a crime.

No, I do not think, PJ old sod,

that the good Doctor's ideas came from God...

Hehe...

[lars573]

^Best comeback ever. It beats out, "That's because your Welsh."

[Alrowan]

most peoiple who dont understand the bible dont see at all how god remains unchanged through its entire course, fire and brimstone on one hand you say? love your enemy on the other?

God holds the right to judgment, and he jugdes those who do wrong, we will all in fact be jugded at the end of the age, so i guess you better start making excuses. As for jesus' teachings they were there for humanity to get back in the right with God, but were only really useful for those who accepted him as thier saviour, as righteousness is the only thing that will save anyone from gods wrath. But because he loved us, he sent Jesus that we might have that chance, otherwise we all deserve to be wiped off the face of the earth