What if god was falable?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

What if religions idea of an infalable god is wrong? What if we really are created in the image god and he is falable just like us. Sure smarter and wiser but maybe he also makes mistakes here and there. This would explain evolution. That or he just got bored of certain species Is there more than one god? Does every planet that has inteligent life have its own god who created it? Is there only one universe? These are questions we will never know the answer to.

[bmolsson]

The creator is not perfect, his creation is an image of him and is for sure not perfect. If he would have had access to a forum, we all would never have existed. When he was bored he would have posted rubbish in a forum instead of creating a big mess called earth..........

[sharrukin]

If God gives man free will then does he not, by implication allow him to exercise it? This suggests that at the very least a limitation, even if self imposed. Otherwise, if we are given free will to choose but he knows in advance exactly what we will do with it, then what is the point? Doesn't God have to be fallible otherwise the imperfections in the world make little sense.

Most older religions didn't have the concept of an infallible god.

[ichi]

If a being is fallible, then it's not God, just a higher form of being. Maybe a fallible being created the world as we see it, but then that being must surely exist within some framework and therefore subordinate to an even higher being.

True divinity must be omniscient and omnipotent. Such a being would not be constrained by time or space, and therefore would know the outcome, even it we have free will then an omniscient God would know what we, on our own, would do, before we were even created.

This is one of the deepest flaws in Christianity. Why would a merciful God create beings that it knew would be cast into Hell?

One of the great mysteries.

ichi

[bmolsson]

The free will is a myth.....

[sharrukin]

If a being is fallible, then it's not God, just a higher form of being.

True divinity must be omniscient and omnipotent.

One of the great mysteries.

ichi

Why must a true divinity must be omniscient and omnipotent? That was never a requirement throughout most of history.

[Ironside]

Why must a true divinity must be omniscient and omnipotent? That was never a requirement throughout most of history.

It's to earn the big G in God.

Otherwise you're only god.

[Kagemusha]

I have my occasional doubts that God is just Some celestial strategy player.

[sharrukin]

It's to earn the big G in God.

Otherwise you're only god.

Well, you would think that creating the universe would be enough to get a little respect! Asking for perfection just seems a little demanding.

[Ianofsmeg16]

God certainly aint pperfect....he created thid wonderful world full of everything we need, but in humans he really cocked up, he gave us free will.
God did some wonderfuk things but maybe he's realised his mistake and leaving us alone....

[Ja'chyra]

What if god was falable?

What if God was real?

[bmolsson]

Asking for perfection just seems a little demanding.

I guess you have never been married......

[Dâriûsh]

I will not pretend to know God, but if he’s infallible, he must at least have humour. And evolution must be his gift to the innumerable internet forum posters.

God knows best.

[Louis VI the Fat]

What if we really are created in the image god and he is falable just like us.

What if man created God in the image of man? And made a few flaws? And now procrastinates himself indefinately before his own mistake, set in stone?

[Devastatin Dave]

What if god was falable? Well, it would explain the creation of liberals I suppose.

[Ronin]

well...if god was real... he could be falable....

imagine that for example he liked to smoke pot from time to time.....

that would certainly explain the platypus

[Steppe Merc]

The platypus is one weird animal...

[Devastatin Dave]

The platypus is one weird animal...

I believe the existence of this animal shows that God has a sense of humor.

[JimBob]

What if God is fallable? Probably is, done some stuff right, done some stuff wrong.
[shameless plug]Ever read God's Debris good book whose premise is that there is one person on Earth who knows everything, and he tells the guy who is going to replace him all, part of that is that God, trying to prove his omnipotence blew himself up(big bang), and is trying to reform himself, if he can he is omnipotent, ect, ect. Rather intresting read.[/shameless plug]

[ichi]

Well, you would think that creating the universe would be enough to get a little respect! Asking for perfection just seems a little demanding.

How could God create a universe that he couldn't control? In order to create a universe you could not constrained by space or time, and you'd have to be completely aware. Otherwise how could you?

I'm not asking for perfection, just asking the theoretical theological question. IMO if you aren't perfect then you're not God.

ichi

[Crazed Rabbit]

LOL DevDave!

To the topic; no, he is not falable.

Crazed Rabbit

[sharrukin]

How could God create a universe that he couldn't control?

We as humans create things we cannot control all the time. Of course we just think we are gods.

In order to create a universe you could not constrained by space or time, and you'd have to be completely aware. Otherwise how could you?

Thats a logical conclusion. However if God created all things then he either is, or is not constrained by his own creation.

If he is constrained by his own creation, then by the act of creation he became less than perfect.

If he is not constrained by his own creation, then he can choose to be imperfect. Logic, especially the human sort need not apply.

I'm not asking for perfection, just asking the theoretical theological question. IMO if you aren't perfect then you're not God.

ichi

If God is omniscient and omnipotent then why can't he be both perfect and imperfect?
Simply because we cannot understand how that could be possible?
Perhaps God isn't as limited as you imagine!

[ichi]

We as humans create things we cannot control all the time. Of course we just think we are gods.

Hence the distinction between us and God. The analogy fails because we make things from other things, and are not perfect. God creates things from nothing, and is perfect.

Thats a logical conclusion. However if God created all things then he either is, or is not constrained by his own creation.

If he is constrained by his own creation, then by the act of creation he became less than perfect.

If he is not constrained by his own creation, then he can choose to be imperfect. Logic, especially the human sort need not apply.

In order to not be constrained he would had to have made a conscious decision to not be constrained. If in fact God did create the universe then the entire world springs from God's will. If God made a decision to not be constrained then God could just as easily change his mind and lose the constraints, so theres not much true constraint.

Regarding logic, the human sort. Its all we have. When you say that since God is above human law, and hence human logic, then the discussion is reduced to nothing more than faith. Why would God make things logical and give us the ability to reason, then change the rules.

Logic or faith. Since faith is personal and subjective, logic is all that remains as a tool to examine these ideas and the world around us.

If God is omniscient and omnipotent then why can't he be both perfect and imperfect? Simply because we cannot understand how that could be possible?

Perfect and imperfect are human terms, subjective and IMO hard to define. I'm not smart enough to argue perfection. But logically it seems to me that any God worth the title would have to all powerful, unconstrained, and all knowing.

Perhaps God isn't as limited as you imagine!

I think I made the point that God must be omniscient and ominpotent, so I can't see how you construed that to say that I imagine God is limited.

ichi

[sharrukin]

In order to not be constrained he would had to have made a conscious decision to not be constrained. If in fact God did create the universe then the entire world springs from God's will. If God made a decision to not be constrained then God could just as easily change his mind and lose the constraints, so theres not much true constraint.

If God can do anything (omnipotent) then he can choose to be constrained in any degree he wants. He can also choose to be permanently constrained as well, or he isn't omnipotent if he cannot do that! There can be as much true constraint as he cares to have.

Regarding logic, the human sort. Its all we have. When you say that since God is above human law, and hence human logic, then the discussion is reduced to nothing more than faith. Why would God make things logical and give us the ability to reason, then change the rules.

The rules established for a mortal and very imperfect being such as ourselves could never be the same as that established for a god. How can God not be above human law? Can the human mind grasp the concept of nothing? We cannot even imagine it, and yet our logic is supposed to be able to grasp what God can or cannot be?

Logic or faith. Since faith is personal and subjective, logic is all that remains as a tool to examine these ideas and the world around us.

And yet every Holy book talks of faith as the means to God, not logic. Logic as a means to explore the creations of God is one thing. Logic as a means to understand God has limitations. We are part of creation and are hence limited by its constraints and laws. We know that we cannot conceptualize 'nothingness'. There may be many things we are incapable of understanding.

Perfect and imperfect are human terms, subjective and IMO hard to define. I'm not smart enough to argue perfection. But logically it seems to me that any God worth the title would have to all powerful, unconstrained, and all knowing.

I think I made the point that God must be omniscient and ominpotent, so I can't see how you construed that to say that I imagine God is limited.

ichi

You are assuming that God is constrained by the demands of human logic, and the limitations of what we as human beings can understand. That he is either omnipotent or not. Yes, or no!

If he is in fact omnipotent, then why can he not be both 'omnipotent' and 'not omnipotent'?

[Hurin_Rules]

What if religions idea of an infalable god is wrong? What if we really are created in the image god and he is falable just like us. Sure smarter and wiser but maybe he also makes mistakes here and there. This would explain evolution. That or he just got bored of certain species Is there more than one god? Does every planet that has inteligent life have its own god who created it? Is there only one universe? These are questions we will never know the answer to.

You needn't worry-- I am indeed perfect.

[Divinus Arma]

What if God was... one of us? *gasp*

You know, just a slob... A stranger on the bus just trying to make his way home? All alone with nobody calling him on the phone... Except for maybe the Pope in Rome?

*gasp*

[ichi]

If God can do anything (omnipotent) then he can choose to be constrained in any degree he wants. He can also choose to be permanently constrained as well, or he isn't omnipotent if he cannot do that! There can be as much true constraint as he cares to have.

This is the old microwave burrito argument. If God can choose to be permanently constrained, he must be able to reverse that decision, or else he wouldn't be omnipotent. And any self-imposed (and therefore self-reversing) constraint is no real constraint at all.

Again, go back to the original post where I raised the issue of constraint. The true creator of the Universe could not be constrained by space or time. If God were constrained by time then how does prophesy work? Prophesyworks because God (at least a God qualified to be called that) already knows the outcome.

No the Supreme Being isn't constrained by space or time. And no semantical argument about an omnipotent God choosing to be constrains will change that.

The rules established for a mortal and very imperfect being such as ourselves could never be the same as that established for a god. How can God not be above human law?

Of course since a true Universal Creator would be responsible for actually making whatver laws it wanted, it would be above those laws (hence, not constained by space and time - you've contrdicted yourself here).

My question is why would God create humans, give them certain faculties, including observation and rational thought, and then make it so that observation and rational thought were nothing but deceptive, only to be overwhelmed by a higher realm of observation and logic? Why would God do that?

Can the human mind grasp the concept of nothing? We cannot even imagine it, and yet our logic is supposed to be able to grasp what God can or cannot be?

I can grasp nothingness, its not that hard.

and the real issue isn't for us to be able to grasp what God can be, but for us to be able to grasp what our lives are supposed to be all about. Back to my point, either God gave us clues and the ability to make sense of them or he didn't. I have faith that he did. Otherwise what's the point of giving us faculties.

And yet every Holy book talks of faith as the means to God, not logic. Logic as a means to explore the creations of God is one thing. Logic as a means to understand God has limitations. We are part of creation and are hence limited by its constraints and laws. We know that we cannot conceptualize 'nothingness'. There may be many things we are incapable of understanding.

Faith means many things to different people; to some it is blind, to others faith is based on a large part in logic.

So now we're back to my original question. God gave us some faculties, but not enough to fully comprehend his will. He is omniscient, and thus knows what we will do of our own free will given that scenario. He knows that some will choose poorly, and thus will be (according to some Christian thought) condemned to hell for an eternity.

What supreme being would do that? Not a loving merciful one that's for sure, and this is the primary flaw in Christian thought.

You are assuming that God is constrained by the demands of human logic, and the limitations of what we as human beings can understand. That he is either omnipotent or not. Yes, or no!

If he is in fact omnipotent, then why can he not be both 'omnipotent' and 'not omnipotent'?

First, I'm not assuming that there even is a God, so please don't tell me that I'm assuming facts about God. I've put forth the concept that a truly Supreme Being is infallible, it has to be omnipotent (hence it can't microwave a burrito so hot that it can't eat it, because no matter how hot it makes the burrito it can always eat it). If God isn't omnipotent or omniscient then it isnt truly God, just a higher form of being.

Either God created the universe, in which case God has power over the universe, or God exists within a universal framework, in which case it isn't God, simply a higher form of being than we. Since we don't have access to the truth, and our faiths differ, all that we have left is logic with which to discuss it. Hiding behind our lack of perfection doesn't help make much progress, and avoids critical thought, IMO.

ichi

[Samurai Waki]

I would be bored if I was God. Nothing would matter, I would become irritable and cruel. I like Norse Mythology Better

[sharrukin]

This is the old microwave burrito argument. If God can choose to be permanently constrained, he must be able to reverse that decision, or else he wouldn't be omnipotent. And any self-imposed (and therefore self-reversing) constraint is no real constraint at all.

Again, go back to the original post where I raised the issue of constraint. The true creator of the Universe could not be constrained by space or time. If God were constrained by time then how does prophesy work? Prophesyworks because God (at least a God qualified to be called that) already knows the outcome.

No the Supreme Being isn't constrained by space or time. And no semantical argument about an omnipotent God choosing to be constrains will change that.

It isn't semantics, its logic.
Logic after all, cannot even prove that we exist, how could it prove the existence of what created it?
Can logic be used to prove the validity of logic?

Of course since a true Universal Creator would be responsible for actually making whatver laws it wanted, it would be above those laws (hence, not constained by space and time - you've contrdicted yourself here).

You are the one claiming God is constrained by logic not me!

The principles of logic state that contradictions cannot both be true. We cannot say that A exists and that A does not exist without at least one of those statement being false. However if time and space do not bind God as you mentioned then for God, you can be both dead and alive. Dead in the year 2134 AD and alive in the year 1998 AD. You must assume that he is also bound by space and time for logic to bind him as well. If time did not apply then events would have no causality.

My question is why would God create humans, give them certain faculties, including observation and rational thought, and then make it so that observation and rational thought were nothing but deceptive, only to be overwhelmed by a higher realm of observation and logic? Why would God do that?

This question seems to be based on the idea that we are gods equal. We cannot be! What is true for him cannot be true for us! Otherwise we would be co-equal with God. God is capable of understanding things which we could never understand. We are limited by what we are. He is not!

I can grasp nothingness, its not that hard.

Really!
You can imagine the absence of all things!
Well how can it even exist, because if it did, then it would logically be something, and not nothing?

What BTW does it look like!

and the real issue isn't for us to be able to grasp what God can be, but for us to be able to grasp what our lives are supposed to be all about. Back to my point, either God gave us clues and the ability to make sense of them or he didn't. I have faith that he did. Otherwise what's the point of giving us faculties.

To understand the world around us. I am not saying that logic is invalid as a tool to understand the world. I am saying it is invalid as a tool to understand what is not of the world.

However our perception of things may not correspond with reality as it is. Many things we consider true may in fact be false. We are limited by who and what we are, our own thought patterns, culture, and physical perceptions.

"We cannot imagine the scope of our ignorance, just as a blind man cannot imagine darkness until he can see."
- Immanuel Kant

Faith means many things to different people; to some it is blind, to others faith is based on a large part in logic.

So now we're back to my original question. God gave us some faculties, but not enough to fully comprehend his will. He is omniscient, and thus knows what we will do of our own free will given that scenario. He knows that some will choose poorly, and thus will be (according to some Christian thought) condemned to hell for an eternity.

What supreme being would do that? Not a loving merciful one that's for sure, and this is the primary flaw in Christian thought.

About the faith part you will have to ask someone that has some.

If God exists he is a lot more than merciful and loving! From what I have read of the Bible he can be less than loving on occasion. IMO, he doesn't know what we will choose and there is no logical reason he would need to know. A logical contradiction is not binding if he is omnipotent.

Logically any being that cannot violate logic is not omnipotent.

First, I'm not assuming that there even is a God, so please don't tell me that I'm assuming facts about God. I've put forth the concept that a truly Supreme Being is infallible, it has to be omnipotent (hence it can't microwave a burrito so hot that it can't eat it, because no matter how hot it makes the burrito it can always eat it). If God isn't omnipotent or omniscient then it isnt truly God, just a higher form of being.

Either God created the universe, in which case God has power over the universe, or God exists within a universal framework, in which case it isn't God, simply a higher form of being than we. Since we don't have access to the truth, and our faiths differ, all that we have left is logic with which to discuss it. Hiding behind our lack of perfection doesn't help make much progress, and avoids critical thought, IMO.

ichi

Well, I don't believe in God either, so I don't have any faith.. That really isn't the point.

You seem to be assuming that because logic has limits it has no value. Critical thought is essential to human progress, but logical paradoxes exist. This doesn't invalidate logic as a valuable tool.

If an omnipotent power exists it can violate logic. If you refuse to concede such a possibility then you have a priori answered your own question which was never a valid one to begin with. If all things are subject to Gods will, then that must include logic. If God cannot transcend logic then he is subject to it, and is therefore not God. You assume that God is in fact bound by his own creation (logic), and is therefore NOT omnipotent. You then proceed to ask if he is omnipotent. Your question, as you pose it, can have no other outcome.

If you do assert that omnipotence means that logic can be violated, then you cannot use that same logic to prove the existence of an omnipotent being that is not subject to logic.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." --From Hamlet (I, v, 166-167)

[bmolsson]

If somebody claimed to be God ? Wouldn't that be proof that God exist ?