The War Comes Home

[KafirChobee]

From USN&WR:

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/ar...829/29iraq.htm

The beginning of fissures in Americans confidence in President Bush have (and are) widening. It's a point of fact, even in his own administration there are those that doubt he really has a clue as to what he is doing, or if he comprehends what he has done.

"The problem is the slow loss of peoples' confidence that things are going well in Iraq," says a senior Whitehouse strategist. A former advisor to two previous Republican Presidents adds: "Bush's credibility is at stake. Bevause of Iraq, his leadership on all other issues gets questioned. AND IT APPEARS THAT BUSH doesn't want to hear from anyone that opposes him. Bush and his people have charted a course, decided they are right and [that] God is on their side. But, people are asking, "What's the strategy for winning? When will we see progress?"

Further: U.S. officials now concede their original goals for Iraq were overly ambitious. The training of Iraqi security forces (...) has been seriously flawed.

Back home, the public seems upset not just by the casualties but by the entire war effort. "People see it as one big thing, which is a mess," says a senior administration advisor. "People ask, 'When is it going to be calm and peaceful? Give us a sense it's going well.' " ......also, they are concerned with the erosion of support from military families (not just Cindy Sheehan, she is just the symbol of what may soon occur).

As for Cindy?: Two top administration officials met with Sheehan shortly after her arrival in Crawford, but the president has so far declined (note: this is what they mean when they say the prez met with her) to do so. this strategy has drawn criticism from Republicans, like Nebraska Sen. Chuck Hagel, a Vietnam veteran (and no doubt soon to be labeled a coward by the swiftboaters).

Antiwar movement: Last week, some 1,500 candlelight vigils in support of Sheehan were held nationwideby Americans opposing the war. [it is qualified by USNews as a "liberal" movement, sponsored by MOVEON]

Other quotes by vet's parents:
Paul Schroeder (son killed by roadside bomb); "Mr. President, your refusal to support our troops at adequate levels needed to do the job required in Iraq has cost our son's life and the lives of so many others .... Now you have to deal with us and a growing number of Americans who think you have created a mess that you do not have the capacity to end."

James Sheppard (son returned in late March after suffering repeated heat strokes) - he supported the war in Afghanistan as being important to capture or kill Osama bin Laden, But Iraq?; "I'm a registered Republican, but I wouldn't trust my president to run a McDonalds right now. ...... "You meet these kids, you look back on their faces, and now you know some of them are dead. It disgusts me."

Historical administration rhetoric:
Rumsfield, Nov, 15, 2002: "The idea that it is going to be a long, long, long battle of some kind, I think, is belied by the fact of what happened in 1990 [in the Persian Gulf War]. Five days or five weeks or five months, but it certainly isn't going to last any longer than that."
Note: Rummy has since requalified that - after the "last throes" that it might take 12 years .... or more, "'Til the job is done".

Bush43, May 1, 2003: "Major combat operations in Iraq have ended." [gotta love it, eh? only 176 GIs dead then - only +1,700 more to date]

VP Cheney, May 30, 2005: "The Iraq insurgency is in its last thoes."

A july poll by Pew this month, found that only 49% of Americans said Bush is trustworthy, compared with 62% in Sept. 2003.
Still polls are polls and we may soon see if they really mean anything or not.

What was that old saying about someone that takes himself as his own advisor and only listens to his advise? Seems that is what Bush has doen, and will continue to take that road. Ater all, he and God can't be wrong .... cac they?

[Xiahou]

A july poll by Pew this month, found that only 49% of Americans said Bush is trustworthy, compared with 62% in Sept. 2003.
Still polls are polls and we may soon see if they really mean anything or not.

It's important to keep at least a little perspective here. I believe Clinton spent much of his presidency with a 'trustworthy' rating between 42-49% and I don't think John Kerry made it above 50% at any point during his campaign. It's not so much that 49% is abysmally low, so much as that 62% was unusually high form what I've seen.

[Divinus Arma]

Again, does anyone really give a rats ass about cindy sheehan. I would call her a poor exploited woman, but she obviously loves the limelight. She and her media hounds disgust me. If they never covered her, noone would even know her name.

[Papewaio]

she obviously loves the limelight.

Surely that applies to virtually all politicians and actors.

[Red Harvest]

Again, does anyone really give a rats ass about cindy sheehan. I would call her a poor exploited woman, but she obviously loves the limelight. She and her media hounds disgust me. If they never covered her, noone would even know her name.

I care about her right to protest, even though I disagree with her. I am far more disgusted by the President's actions in the matter than by hers. If he wants to be an arrogant arse, so be it. She's not the problem here. Maligning grieving mothers isn't going to win him a heckuva lot of support, but it is making his backers look bad.

I'm also disgusted by a presidency that has tried to blow smoke up our butts rather than put together a plan for Iraq that actually works. He hasn't sought good counsel from outside his own circle. He doesn't seem to think he has to answer to anyone either. I disagree with him on that, and I'll dare to say there are perhaps 100 million other Americans who feel that way, too.

It isn't her protests that are hurting our efforts in Iraq...it's the Commander in Chief's mistakes.

[Red Harvest]

It's important to keep at least a little perspective here. I believe Clinton spent much of his presidency with a 'trustworthy' rating between 42-49% and I don't think John Kerry made it above 50% at any point during his campaign. It's not so much that 49% is abysmally low, so much as that 62% was unusually high form what I've seen.

Clinton's trustworthy ratings had to do with his personal life, not his actual presidency...if you want perspective.

[PanzerJaeger]

I care about her right to protest, even though I disagree with her. I am far more disgusted by the President's actions in the matter than by hers. If he wants to be an arrogant arse, so be it. She's not the problem here. Maligning grieving mothers isn't going to win him a heckuva lot of support, but it is making his backers look bad.

You fail to mention that President Bush did in fact meet with her for the same amount of time alotted to all service member's mothers.

How is ignoring some woman who accuses him of using nukes in Iraq that already met with him being an "arse"?

[Proletariat]

I'll never understand people on the Sheehan matter who keep clamoring that they stand by her right to protest. No one is saying that she should be thrown in jail, they're calling her an imbecile.

[Divinus Arma]

You fail to mention that President Bush did in fact meet with her for the same amount of time alotted to all service member's mothers.

How is ignoring some woman who accuses him of using nukes in Iraq that already met with him being an "arse"?

Exactly. Nothing is going to appease the media creation of Sheehanzilla.

What is shown now is not even her. It is a created, editted, manipulated image of the liberal perspective. The big evil monster coming to attack.

RAARRRRRHHHH!!!!!

[KafirChobee]

The point is, Sheehan is not the problem. Bush is.

Twisting in the wind is the truth about why we were encouraged to support the ill-conceived invasion of Iraq.

The invasion of Afghanistan? I wish the Republicans had left Clinton alone long enough for him to have done it - without being accused of trying to change the subject of "Whitewater". Still, 9/11 pretty much sealed the deal for our taking action against the Taliban and Osama bin Laden (did we catch him yet?, Oh thats right we are to busy fighting 50,000 other terrorists in Iraq to bother with him right now).

But, Iraq? That needs some explaining. That is what people are protesting about. People want to hear an exit plan - not "We're there 'til its over". Define, "when its over". Tell us why the fabrication of stories about WMDs, nuclear proliferation and such were used when those propounding such elaberate schemes knew they were hoaxes to convince the American people into believing Iraq was a threat to them.

Explain how their intelligence was so ascew that they believed they could win with 120,000 troops - even though the pentagon was asking for 300,000. Explain why they fired or retired anyone that disagreed with their assessment. Explain why men were sent into harms way without the proper equipment necessary to do their job. ["We send men to war with what we got, not what we wish for", Rummy]

These are the things that are important to the American public. Sheehan, is just a focal point for the administration to attempt to ridicule those that don't believe as they pretend to. She is a greiving mother that simply wants to know - why? She is not the issue, she is simply the one in the spotlight that has the opportunity to ask the questions 49% of Americans want to hear answered by their president. Whom doesnot seem interested or willing to do so.

Go back and read the article I posted. Bet a summary of it (on 3X5 or 5X8 cards) was given to Bush43 - though being on a 5 week vacation he may not have had time to read it.

[PanzerJaeger]

The invasion of Afghanistan? I wish the Republicans had left Clinton alone long enough for him to have done it

Ahaha.. oh keep it up Kafir. Each post is funnier than the last. I almost spilled my drink!

Clinton, the man who Sudan offered Bin Laden's head on a silver platter to, was going to invade Afghanistan if it werent for the evil republicans.

Your revisionism would make even goebbels proud.

[Divinus Arma]

While the end conclusion of his statement is obviously false, the fact that the republicans harassed Clinton to the point of uselessness is most certainly a valid one.

You hear claims from the right about the Democrats doing the same thing to Bush.

What the hell are you still doing up? Don't you have school or something in the morning? Your mom is going to be pissed.

[Divinus Arma]

I don't have community college classes 'till mid-september, and I got two jobs and moved out when I turned 18. More than I can say for most people my age ;)

Shouldn't you be taking your arthritis meds? *ducks*

Good for you! I did the same thing. It sucked. That's one of the reasons I joined the Corps.


Now I have a house, a great work history, a Bachelor's degree, and a solid foundation for the rest of my life.

You should consider it. Don't believe the hype you hear. I know! I've been at it for some time now! And I fully plan to leave. One more year. Or Iraq and death. Whichever comes first.

[Divinus Arma]

Screw that. The Military cuts your hair, and that's a dealbreaker. Else i'd have joined the day I turned 18.

Oh come on Hippy Moe!

It's just Hair. Crap I had long hair when I was a kid too! I even voted for Al Gore!

The hair grows back. Jeez. Won't join cause you need a hair or two cut. You have like a giant growth on your head or what? Dude let it go. You must have other reasons. It can't be just your nasty hippy hair.

[Divinus Arma]

Being shot at isn't very appealing either!

But in all seriousness: They'll get my hair over my dead body. It was a bitch to grow out.

Uhm... well whatever. It's your hair-life-future. Enjoy slvaing on two jobs and trying to go to "community college" which you will drop out of and put "some college" on your resume for the rest of your life...

If you want to be mistaken as a chick for the rest of your life... (And a fricking horribly ugly chick at that, blah! How the hell did he think that?)

[Aenlic]

Clinton, the man who Sudan offered Bin Laden's head on a silver platter to, was going to invade Afghanistan if it werent for the evil republicans.

Your revisionism would make even goebbels proud.

Um, no. A nicely twisted misstatement of fact designed to present a particular point of view and excuse the Bush administration's failing. The word for that is propaganda.

Sudan offered to send bin Laden not to the U.S. but to Saudi Arabia, where he was still a citizen; but the Clinton administration and the Saudis couldn't agree on the terms because the Saudis didn't really want him. Eventually, Sudan just let him go.

Nice historical revision, though. A great example of how repeating the same lie over and over will eventually get some people to believe it. Goebbels would indeed be proud.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Nice historical revision, though.

Yes by you. Oh sure your facts are correct but you leave some of the story out.

Sudan offered up the terrorist and data on his network. The then-president and his advisors didn't respond.

President Clinton and his national security team ignored several opportunities to capture Osama bin Laden and his terrorist associates, including one as late as last year.

I know because I negotiated more than one of the opportunities.

From 1996 to 1998, I opened unofficial channels between Sudan and the Clinton administration. I met with officials in both countries, including Clinton, U.S. National Security Advisor Samuel R. "Sandy" Berger and Sudan's president and intelligence chief. President Omar Hassan Ahmed Bashir, who wanted terrorism sanctions against Sudan lifted, offered the arrest and extradition of Bin Laden and detailed intelligence data about the global networks constructed by Egypt's Islamic Jihad, Iran's Hezbollah and the Palestinian Hamas.

Among those in the networks were the two hijackers who piloted commercial airliners into the World Trade Center.

The silence of the Clinton administration in responding to these offers was deafening.

LINK

Not only that but

The two men who allegedly piloted the planes into the twin towers, Mohamed Atta and Marwan Al-Shehhi, prayed in the same Hamburg mosque as did Salim and Mamoun Darkazanli, a Syrian trader who managed Salim's bank accounts and whose assets are frozen.

So it seems that Atta was known way back then to be a terrorist.

Now here the heart of the matter and were you go wrong

The offer, which would have brought Bin Laden to the Arab country as the first step of an extradition process that would eventually deliver him to the U.S., required only that Clinton make a state visit there to personally request Bin Laden's extradition. But senior Clinton officials sabotaged the offer, letting it get caught up in internal politics within the ruling family--Clintonian diplomacy at its best.

And heres why

Gutbi had shown me some of Sudan's data during a three-hour meeting in Khartoum in October 1996. When I returned to Washington, I told Berger and his specialist for East Africa, Susan Rice, about the data available. They said they'd get back to me. They never did. Neither did they respond when Bashir made the offer directly. I believe they never had any intention to engage Muslim countries--ally or not. Radical Islam, for the administration, was a convenient national security threat.

As usual he swept it inder the rug. All he cared about was his legacy of which he has none except being the worst president in modern history next to Carter. I place our probems with Muslim extremists aqurely at the door of these two worthless pieces of dung.

LINK

[PanzerJaeger]

Um, no. A nicely twisted misstatement of fact designed to present a particular point of view and excuse the Bush administration's failing. The word for that is propaganda.

Sudan offered to send bin Laden not to the U.S. but to Saudi Arabia, where he was still a citizen; but the Clinton administration and the Saudis couldn't agree on the terms because the Saudis didn't really want him. Eventually, Sudan just let him go.

Nice historical revision, though. A great example of how repeating the same lie over and over will eventually get some people to believe it. Goebbels would indeed be proud.

It seems you need to review the facts and retract your lies. I stated the truth.