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  1. #1

    Default Western Roman Empire (BI faction)

    Guide.
    Frogbeastegg's Guide to Total War: Shogun II. Please note that the guide is not up-to-date for the latest patch.


  2. #2
    Sand
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    Default Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)

    Ive only been playing over the weekend so Im just going to contribute a few points that have become apparent as I played. The WREs position seems nice on the strategy map but its a complete mess. No cash, no trade net work to make it, a huge army bill thats spread out across the map so youve no concentration of force, and practically all cities on the verge of revolt due to religious schisms. And thats even before the barbarians show up.

    Be brutal - All the cities in Spain except for Corduba need to be demolished as much as possible for loot, and abandoned to revolt. Just before you go build Christian Shrines there, as when they revolt they seem to go 99% Christian if theres a Christian shrine there. This can be useful later.

    Similar deal for the likes of Salona, Avaricarum, and similar cities that just arent going to make it. Loot them, leave them. Some cities can be saved, even by steps as simple as moving the governers in them out of the city, Carthage can go from Red to Green in the first turn for example. Youll need to micromanage and experiment with various tax/games and whatever settings. Theres far too much to go into here and most people should know by now how to deal with a tough city. Your Emperor is Christian and that means a 10% public order penalty in Pagan cities, which can tip the scales in the big cities. Wherever possible build christian shrines and move characters as appropriate (Valentinus in Rome, and the 24 year old General in Hungary are born again evangelists, really useful for fast conversion). Christian regions reinforce each other, likewise Pagans so dont skate uphill in places like the western frontier. Some you should leave alone for now - like Eburcuam (York...), Massilla and Syracuse are just asking for trouble when youve got enough already.

    Your army bill is insane (for what you can support anyway) and youll need to dump about 25% of it as soon as you can. Get it down to under 30K or less if possible. Trash every troop producing building outside Rome in your first turn. You need the cash, and Rome produces the best troops you can make anyway. Then start disbanding units of troops - I favour dumping Foederatti Cavalary and the Comitatenses, the first because Light Cavalry isnt the most useful troop type around, and the second because its far, far, far too expensive for you to maintain. You need to keep a small army in North Africa (I favour building peasants in Syracuse, then sending the 2 Comms 2 Archers stack to Cartage whilst disbanding the other Comm - this takes a few turns), and similar sized armies in Spain, the Balkans and Britannia. A larger army is needed in Western Europe obviously, but dont let that Nero chap command it at the end of the turn - hes useful for a quick attack, but move him out of the stack at the end of the turn because hes a treacherous so and so. After army disbandments your forces will be paper thin, and you wont be able to retrain them anywhere but Rome, but skilled Generals will still win handily where they need to. Your navy also needs to be disbanded. Two ship stacks need to be one ship stacks, and you need them only in Corduba, Londium, Syracuse and the Adriatic. Everything else disband in a port.

    Keep your taxes as high as you can, youre aiming for blue faces. Im the first couple of turns everything is about cash, and making it. Caralis and Londinium seem to be the two cities that are most worth investing in in terms of markets and trade etc. Prioritise them for money making first. After all my looting and disbanding I was actually able to turn a profit on my first turn - you will be hurt when the Pagan cities rebel on the 2nd turn but its short term pain for long term gain.

    At this point you should have a couple of thousand denarri, and several cities especially in Spain are going to riot and then revolt. Let them. They will only have peasant armies (if you destroyed all troop making buildings). Move in the next turn and seige them and then exterminate them. Ive done this about 5 times now and you make usually 10K a city, sometimes 5 or 6K. The population is sometimes magically tipped to Christian since rebelling (build those shrines in the first turn), and the squalor which was such a mess before is not a problem now. You should have a much better chance of building and holding these cities now, if not push them into revolt and exterminate them again. Pop boom should keep them happy.

    The Allemani can also be bushwhacked easy enough in the first couple of turns, and again exterminated and looted. Then demolish for loot, push them into revolt, leave and theyll swing to the Western Empire rebels, which can be a useful buffer. There are other rebel barbarians on the frontier that can be exterminated for loot so whilst youre waiting for the barbarians to show up help yourself. Dont get too worried about the barbarians, theyre coming, but they havent made any hostile moves in my campaign yet.

    Ive fought one battle against the Berbers and wasnt impressed - light infantry, light cavalary: I beat a Berber army of four inf/cav units +general with a unit of foe spears and a unit of Lim + the Gen in carthage with practically no casualties. They seemed to have no morale, maybe the gen in question but either way, not a concern.

    Be careful where you build your agents, Christians seem to be recruited from Christian cities and they have an effect on conversion, a lot of Christian diplomats and spies can maybe tip the balance in a pagan city and vice versa.

  3. #3
    Merkismathr of Birka Member PseRamesses's Avatar
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    Default Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)

    "Consolodating"

    Turn 1:
    Destroy all pagan buildings. Destroy all military buildings (except in Rome). Disband units like priests, bucellarii, all cavs and all fleets except 2 (Britain and Sicily). This will bring your treasury up to well over 19.000 dinarii. Set all taxes to low and build peasant and christian shrine (1 turn) in all settlements.
    You have 5 ZoD (zone of defence): Iberia, France, Balkan, Italy and Africa. Pull all expendable troops together into 5 armies within thoose areas.

    Turn 2:
    Continue removing expendable troops from settlements into the 5 armies as lyalties goes up. Single out the one settlement in each region that has the lowest loyalty and pull all troops out and make shure loyalty goes down to 0%. Theese 5 settlements are the first that you will terminate. In all other settlements build a christian chapel (2 turns) and more peasants for garrisoning, 2-4/ settlement will usually do.


    +"Liquidating"

    Turn 3:
    Lay seige to the "5" settlements that you singled out. For me it was actually 4: Aduatica?/ Iberia, Avaricum/ France, Salona/ Balkans and Mediolanium/ Italy.
    Your treasury should now dip well below -5.000 d.

    Turn 4:
    Take theese settlements and exterminate the population. This will bring some 40-50.000 d. into your treasury. All chapels are now built so you can move on and sacking remainding settlemnts that still won´t hover around 100% with 4 garrisoning peasants and NO general. Repeat, repeat and repeat again until all "pagans" arer rooted out of your new christian empire.

    = "PseRamesses´3-turn key" to increased cash-flow


    In less than 2 years you´ve now turned a sprawling civil-war prune empire on the edge of collapse into a cash-making machine and just 10 years into the game you´ll make well over 15.000d/ turn. Bring on the hordes!

    Now you´re all set. Cash is coming in with 10k/ turn + from exterminating/ enslaving troublesome settlements and you can rebuild the infrastructure you initially destroyed. Don´t worry about other enemies, they won´t come wandering into your lands until they have troops to spare. Guard your border-bridges since a small defensive force can protect it easily. Haven´t even had any major difficulties with the hordes this way.
    Be ware though of the commanders you have with pagan beliefs - they are easily bribed, and the barbarbarian factions start out with a lot of cash; 10-15.000 d. This is the reason why I want my garrisoning to work without any generals. Send them to Rome and some monastary (sp?) teachings for a while. Thoose that don´t convert, "hang" as many pagan vices around their necks and send them on suicidal missions.
    From here I tend to build, build and build with my focus on defending. When done with this and evrything is solid I expand, usually into ERE-lands and I let the pestering little barbarians stay alive even if they won´t agree on a ceasefire or protectorate deal. Anyway, a good bridge slaughter now and then is always healthy and keeps my armies alert, right?!

  4. #4
    Member Member Sand's Avatar
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    Default Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)

    One other point - (I only registered just there) - Corduba is "paired" tradewise with Tingi, which starts the game as the Berber captial, and theyre at war with you. In typical frustrating Total War style this means they never see a reason to make peace with you, until theyre dead. Peace and mutual benefit from trade isnt attractive to them it seems. So make it a point of order to send an army from Carthage ( the one originally from Syracuse will be well able to beat anything the Berbers can muster ) and deal out some Pax Romana to the locals. There are other draws to Tingi apart from making cash - its Christian, and its got decent troop production which youll have missed in Iberia/North Africa until now. Reinforce those battered legions, then send them north to help out on the frontier when order is restored in Iberia.

    And a correction to what I said above about Shrines tipping rebelling cities to Christianity...they dont. Though the swing in Tarraco to Christianity is indeed miraculous if you leave them alone for 3 -4 turns. Its still worth building shrines in rebelling cities though, as they force the region to be officially Christian, which reinforces conversion in your own remaining regions that are neighbouring them. Ive also begun heavily converting the frontier by capturing and exterminating barbarian settlements on the frontier and building shrines before I abandon them or gift them to a local faction for brownie points. Helps my provinces to convert, or at least stop converting to Paganism. Agents as I said above help, but its not automatic that a Christian city produces a christian agent - Ive yet to see a pagan one produced in a Christian city, but a fair few are neither.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)

    I think I got totally lucky. I was also very persistent. I did not worry about changing any cities religion. Those places that I could not adjust to get over 60% at the beginning, I let them revolt and took them back later. I did not disband any armies, I just pulled them together in certain regions for defense and some (very Little) offense. I did have problems for 75% of the game with cities (unrest). I always did just enough to keep them in the blue and some even in the red. 1st building priority was temples/shrines/church etc, whatever the city was majority wise. Then entertainment and health. Those cities that were happy I did the money and health upgrades.

    Since I did not disband I had good army strength to defend and to put down revolts. I cashed in on all military buildings except for a few well placed cities. Kept 4 - 6 peasants per city, except those on border with a neighbor kept some better troops to defend and foray out if need be.. Only upgraded military buildings in Carthage and Rome. I fell in the negative alot but would always estermiante a neighbor to get money back up.

    Took England and the celts quick. Took troops from syracuse to help Carthage defend. Got lucky when the Berbs wanted peace for a small time. When they attacked next, was always able to fend them off. My navy was beat up early except for small fleets east of Rome (helped me ferry troops to east border), and near carthage. I built a small enough fleet to take more men to England to deal with Celts and them bring them back. Took the Berbs out when I built up an army big enough. Owned the whole Left 1/3 of map.

    Hordes came.... WOW!! Hard but man was it fun. Army was strong enough to take out 4 different hordes as they tried to come through my land. Good thing they all never came at the sametime. Any 2 hordes would have been more than I could handle. Had to deal with East Rome the whole time but they only wanted (can't think of city name) city just east of Rome. I was able to ferry troops over when needed to keep beating them off. Was able to catch small pieces of the horde when they are not adjacent to the whole group. Lots of battles where I was out numbered 2 to 1. Used 6 to 7 groups of archers defended by inf. and cal. with a couple of mounted archers. Up to 668 archers helped me to desimate any mounted archers that came to bother me. I have them in losse format and choose certain untis to attack certain groups and let them take them out. Once charged I tighten back up their formation and pull them back to saftey behind my lines. This worked like a charm even though I would lose 100 or so archers some battles. Easy enough to replace them (cheap).

    Franks caused me problems for awhile. I beat them pretty bad till they were down to one city. They then turned into a horde (someone must have took out that last city. Until I had the strength I just kept the river between me and them and they were never brave enough to come across. I built a new army with all the finest and with a new general I just bought. I used 3 full stacks to wipe the Frank hoard.

    By this time 98% or so of my cities are in the green and I am rolling in dough. Took Theselonia from East, then Athens. Army in Africa rolled all the way over and took Alexandria. Extermiante these cities and my surpluss of money was approaching 50,000. I beat the game in the year 421 with 44 territories. I will continue to play till the whole map is red.

    Like I said I got lucky with not changing my whole empire to one religion (would not recommend that). Only played that round on Medium. Will now try the west on hard and will use some of the ideas above.

  6. #6
    Member Member Sand's Avatar
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    Default Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)

    More to add: The rhine and the danube are your best friend. Without them keeping Western Europe civillised would be impossible, instead of merely extremely difficult. There are just over half a dozen bridging and fording points along their lenth. Build your army towards having a small border army on each bridge (Im working with 4 Limitanei and 4 Archers, though some are underutilised and Ill be disbanding them as the horde threat recedes), and then build two field armies with all the good stuff and sit them centrally to reinforce any bridge that comes under threat. Get them led by a general with good movement bonuses. With highways built ( midgame priority) youll be able to move along whole frontier in one turn. Best way to discourage hoardes whilst keeping your army bills down. Then your down to some good old fashioned bridge massacres!

    In my game Ive so far annialated the Goths and the Vandals (theyre still around, just not worth anything). The Vandals were seiging the Frankish capital, and I was considering my options when the Vandals forced my hand by suddenly crossing into Roman land via a ford just north of the Alps that I hadnt seen and thus hadnt defended. Cue panic! Anyway, the interloepers were driven out, but better still was the night attacks led by that treacherous cur Nero to lift the seige of the Frankish capital by the Vandal stacks. I could take each stack singly because of night attacks and thus managed to beat them all with a scratched together army. The real benefit of lifting the seige on the Franks was stopping them from "hoarding" and thus making the Rhine to hot to hold. Nero and Spuris Flavius ( Acquinium) are extremely useful for cutting down the hordes to manageable numbers with their night attack ability.

    Dealing with horse archers is a pain, but I favour heavy cavalry over archers against them. Youll take losses using your archers but your generals ( esp when retrained in Romes foundry) will be practically invulnerable to horse archer fire. Takes some micro management (and a few generals on hand) to "herd" horse archers against a red line and massacre them but its the most cost effective way to do it ( gens regenerate, archers do not). It also helps your gens develop good traits/stats from all that killing.

    Right now, there are only two hoards still active - the Huns whove taken a few beatings on their way to me I think, and the Samartians who are probing to find an unguarded bridge. This is something you can manipulate - when the Vandals crossed into the Alps the Samartians were queing up to follow them across this ford. By this time I managed to get an army to the ford, and pulled another army off the bridge north of Acquinium - Samartians turned straight around and made a beeline for the unguarded bridge, giving me the turn I needed to beat the Vandals and I was still able to garrison the bridge again before the Samartians arrived. The hordes really dont like guarded bridges.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)

    There is another way. Cheat. You can bring up the cheat screen with the ~ key, then type "add_money 99999" repeatedly about 25 times and you will have a few million dinarii to begin with. Then you can move incompatible or very corrupt governors out of their cities. I usually move the Emperor and a couple of others out to form a basis for armies at battle sites I predict will occur. (I usually play the Western Empire, but occasionally the Eastern too.) The second cheat you should use is ~ then "process_cq" "city name" and it will build all the buildings you have in queue. Be careful to see what religion the majority of people have in each city and demolish the opposing religion's temples or churches and replace them with the popular religion's buildings of worship. If you don't use, "process_cq" cheat, your game will take forever since you will only build a few buildings each turn. Since I am 73 years old, I would be dead before I built all the buildings I needed for income, peace and military development. Forget the actual game rules and cheat. It is the only way to really work the chaos into some sense of order. But hey, if you want to destroy your cities in an attempt to survive, be my guest. Be warned though, I am an Italian and descended from the Roman tribe "Aemilia," the first tribe of Rome, and my ancestors, the Aurunci, who lived south of Rome, were given citizenship. So, I will frown upon any lost cities and provinces in the game!

  8. #8

    Default Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)

    bah!

    cheating takes away all the fun. I do not recommend it.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Senior Member Quintus.JC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)

    Is it just me or does the game really lack historical battles, there are only two available! What about all the other famous battles, even I know the battle of Adrianople fought between Visigoths and ERE. There should be lots of them during times like that.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)

    Quote Originally Posted by Quintus.J.Cicero
    Is it just me or does the game really lack historical battles, there are only two available! What about all the other famous battles, even I know the battle of Adrianople fought between Visigoths and ERE. There should be lots of them during times like that.
    Perhaps the problem is partly due to a lack of detailed historical accounts and sources. There needs to be a lot more solid info, than "battle of X where Y were defeated", to make a plausible "model" battle. According to the mil. history book I've got on period even included famous battle like "Chalons" is short on solid info, probably the game version includes more cavalry than actually fought at time.

    Historically, massed light infantry archers defensively dominated horse archers, through greater range and fire density. The HC would actually be lured away, and then find themselves in huge trouble isolated, tiring; facing more maneuvrable missile LC with fresh HC coming in for the kill later. The game may distort things, by not making LC faster, and higher movement stamina than HC.

    But the problem was of course, that very strategically mobile cavalry armies, could not be pinned down and destroyed decisively. Later in history, raiding armies could only be tackled once they were encumbered by booty.
    Last edited by RLucid; 04-30-2008 at 09:19.

  11. #11
    Vicious Celt Warlord Member Celtic_Punk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)

    the game is supposed to make you lose as this faction.
    when i tried my cards at this faction i pretty much hung all the rioters
    and tried to find some area to consolidate in, and let my borders collapse so i would have a somewhat strong position. i eventually gave up tho... found out you could mod the factions so i could play as the celts :P
    'Who Dares WINS!' - SAS
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    Who knows? If it's a enough day we may all end up Generals!"

  12. #12
    Senior Member Senior Member Quintus.JC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)

    Quote Originally Posted by RLucid
    Perhaps the problem is partly due to a lack of detailed historical accounts and sources. There needs to be a lot more solid info, than "battle of X where Y were defeated", to make a plausible "model" battle. According to the mil. history book I've got on period even included famous battle like "Chalons" is short on solid info, probably the game version includes more cavalry than actually fought at time..........
    .
    Adrianople !

  13. #13

    Default Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)

    Well the Wiki write up kind of illustrates my point, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Adrianople

    There are fewer well documented battles to choose from, and we don't know the criteria for choosing them. Then again perhaps the success of the campaign game, mean less emphasis on historical battles. They may have been partly developed for RTW, because of the Time Commanders / Decisive Battle TV usage, and if marketing didn't think they'd be a selling point, then less effort goes in.

    When I installed BI, it was historic battles I looked at, for a quick try out; so actually I do agree with your main point, and only a CA spokesman could give official reasons, and would we believe PR statements anyway?

  14. #14
    Senior Member Senior Member Quintus.JC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)

    List of Roman battles.
    There so many to choose from 365A.D-476. Plus you can have some outside that time-frame (Asculum was in 279B.C while Badon Hill was after the BI have official finished as well).

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