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Thread: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)

  1. #91

    Default Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)

    it is a good idea to hold those cities that make money on turn 3, so on my most recent attempt i refrained from handing over pagan temples to the receivers. this has helped but the problem case is of course Salonika which i think i lost due to sending Spurius down to preach there.
    hey those Sol Invictus pros are impressive, but all the best generals on turn 1 are xian., and it is very tempting to secure the loyalty of a barbarian killer like Nero by making him heir. will going pagan itself bring about a loyalty deficit amongst xian family members,do you think?
    But vain the spear and vain the bow,
    They never can work War's overthrow;
    The hermit's prayer and the widow's tear
    Alone can free the world from fear
    (Blake)

  2. #92

    Default Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)

    None of the Christian generals rebelled in my game and I didn't notice any loyalty penalties. I think winning battles and stripping titles are the only causes for declining loyalty with generals.

  3. #93

    Default Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)

    thanks. it seems a bit of an arms race to me. the roman state has to build up the cities and cannon-up simultaneouly to be strong enough to resist the hordes. you've got what everyone else wants. have to make sure they don't get it. the feel of comitatenses is really gritty, its a pity they can't do the tortilla formation anymore though. next experiment is with first cohorts: i am assuming that the "legionary name" ability works just like a general's rally horn, on all units within a radius. this and the shieldwalling palatine troops add great character to the WRE forces.
    But vain the spear and vain the bow,
    They never can work War's overthrow;
    The hermit's prayer and the widow's tear
    Alone can free the world from fear
    (Blake)

  4. #94

    Default Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)

    First Cohorts are expensive in upkeep so I only used a couple per stack, my main infantry was Plumbatarii. Plumbatarii have the same upkeep as Comitatenses but have a better missile attack and more ammo.

    Btw, don't forget about archer support. I used 8 archers per anti-horde stack after one of my regular stacks got mauled.

  5. #95

    Default Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)

    Presently, with an 8-star nightfighter general and plenty of fresh units, dealing with the already depleted vandals should be akin to riot control. archers i do not make much use of, but with the plumbatarii having so much ammo i see your point.this is especially true with the excellent armour, stamp-marked "ROMAE FACTA". (on that suject i do miss the latin orders fron MTW.) however i think the way of dealing with horse-archers for now is to chase them headlong with sarmatian cuirassiers.
    I have been developing the concept of culivating the romano-british as an allied power and buffer state, handing over to them conquered provinces around the north sea too far away to control; perhaps more money is to be made by having a good trade partner than by garrisoning distant embezzlers. soon to find out how well this may work. however now China Mievilles "Iron Council" beckons. night night, i'm off to Rudewood.
    But vain the spear and vain the bow,
    They never can work War's overthrow;
    The hermit's prayer and the widow's tear
    Alone can free the world from fear
    (Blake)

  6. #96

    Default Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)

    Does the ERE typically attack early in the game (turn 9, in my game)? That took me by surprise, since I know from playing the ERE that such an attack is the second most suicidally insane thing they could possibly do. Marching north to pick fights with the Goths, Sarmatians, Huns, and Vandals is the only worse course of action I can think of. Looks like the hordes will get past the bridges this game - thanks ERE!

    Granted, this is not a terrible thing, I saw in my ERE game that the Romans can easily weather the horde storm given sensible competent leadership. The historical problem was that "sensible, competent" bit... This game will be interesting!

    Could the ERE attack be a difficulty setting effect? I'm at either H or VH for campaign difficulty, maybe that makes AI factions go after the player more aggressively. Though the Franks and Saxons have been quite well behaved so far.

  7. #97

    Default Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)

    afraid i can't answer that since i confess to only playing WRE on medium difficulty so far Except for the fist few turns, and that was plenty enough for me, until the structure of things is clearer . but in both my most recent games the vandal horde showed up in illyrica, 374. perhaps not that historical, but it was the same year that the goths in fact crossed the danube leading to the romans' crushing and decisive defeat at Adrianople, where the eastern empire Valens was slain on the field.
    But vain the spear and vain the bow,
    They never can work War's overthrow;
    The hermit's prayer and the widow's tear
    Alone can free the world from fear
    (Blake)

  8. #98

    Default

    So far I've played WRE on just M/M difficulty...once the ERE attacked early and the other time they didn't so I guess it's somewhat random. On my Frankish H/M campaign I've been at peace with all the barbarian tribes I've allied with for 80+ turns but the Berbers who were neutral wasted no time attacking Arles once I conquered Gaul so I imagine the the aggressiveness of neutrals are increased in Hard but not those of allies.
    Last edited by Phoenix; 11-14-2006 at 00:48.

  9. #99

    Default Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)

    One curious side-effect of the early ERE attack is the prospect for a very quick win. Unless the Vandals or Huns can move forcefully enough to keep me from pushing on to Constantinople, I'll win on turn 25 or so (might require a quick raid to Campus Quadi or some such for Province #34...). Not exactly what I had in mind - I would like to use plumbatarii, auxilia palatinae, and first cohorts someday. OTOH, this shows that a quick win is possible for the WRE, which I certainly did not expect.

    I may have to try again with a house rule to never use generals for battles against other factions. Valentinian's single-handed demolition of the ERE's western armies was just ridiculous. A total loser starting in Spain is eliminating the Berbers almost single-handedly, too.

    Tacticus, have you tried your Romano-British strategy yet? That sounds interesting, and the loss of those three provinces would force the WRE to get into Egypt and/or Asia Minor (or Germany, I suppose) for the win...

  10. #100

    Default Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)

    no,not yet. will kee you posted. i don't know how much the AI will allow this. anyway it does mean using sea-power to help the emergent power survive, but so many players like to disband their navies. it is also not so far from the strategies historically used by emperors, that kept them on their thrones for a good century after Romes military power had evaporated.

    another thing i thought interesting is the direct link between Roman professional military discipline, and the re-emergence of national standing armies and drill in the early 17th century in europe. the new armies of prince Maurice or Gustav Adolphus were based on translations of classical military texts! they mixed pike and musket at the battalion level in independant formations. so maybe i should try using some archers with my spearline....calls for a bit of group formation madness.
    But vain the spear and vain the bow,
    They never can work War's overthrow;
    The hermit's prayer and the widow's tear
    Alone can free the world from fear
    (Blake)

  11. #101

    Default Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)

    Judging from my new WRE game, abandoning Britain is not a very good strategy. I just pulled out entirely on turn 2, so the island has been WRER since then (I wasn't sure if the R-B would spawn - apparently London and York have to be entirely non-Roman for them to show up). Much like the Celts, the WRER turn out to be implacable enemies of the WRE, so I can't use them as a trading partner for more than a few turns at a time. The Celts, oddly, don't seem to have a problem with the WRER owning Britain. Time to send Duke Placus back over to take charge again...

    The R-B strategy would seem to require one to deliberately lose York and London to the Celts. How annoying! I'm not even sure the Celts are competent enough to make it practical - I'd expect them to pick their noses around York for a while, if they even got that far. It's also entirely likely that the R-B also would be unwilling to remain peaceful, since their victory conditions require a piece of Gaul. My verdict is that it's a nice idea, but just doesn't work.

    In other news, I'm now 2/2 at being attacked by the ERE. No DoW yet, but the purple armies marching up to Aquincum are not exactly subtle. Phoenix, do you recall whether you did anything unusual in the game where they didn't attack you?

  12. #102

    Default Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)

    I went Pagan everywhere except Italy. Once the emperor dies and the pagan heir took over it was easier when conquering new territories. I was a true son of Julian.

    First turns are crucial - what to do is outlined elsewhere.

    The one thing I'd recommend (discovered this by accident, but then exploited it to the full) is instead of working hard at outlying cities choose the two hardest to quell, sell off everything and evacuate them. They turn rebel. Do this in Ireland and North East Africa.

    Now the rebels are here - but have 2 hovel-like towns at opposite ends of the map. They make one their capital. The other revolts and returns to the bosom of Rome! You suddenly inherit 4 peasant units and A GENERAL! I laughed out loud when that happened.

    Move them out the city towards where you need them. City revolts back to rebels. Fine, was a waste of money anyway. Wait a few turns and it happens again! I gained 16 peasants and 4 generals (3 lots in ireland, 1 in africa) from insanely impossible rebel holdings. Once they had a rebellion in central europe they did better but even so. Those rebels boosted my army so much they were actually my best allies!

    Unfortunately I couldn't afford to do that with Spain, cost me no end of grief bringing them into order. I ended up with a very drunken and debauched emperor living in southern spain and trundling off from 1 city to another to keep the peace.

  13. #103

    Default Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)

    My revised unit guide:

    Units

    Peasants
    As in all total war games: pathetic cannon fodder. Their uselessness is magnified in this game since they can't be relied on to control populations anymore. The only real use I could find for them is as sappers and arrow shields. Simply put if any other unit is available it does not matter what you want just use anyone else instead.

    Limitanei:
    Having replayed a number of times as the WE empire I have to reconsider my position on the Limes. They are still cannon fodder but they are competant cannon fodder. Their ability to thrown a dart prior to combat combined with their Roman dicipline gives them a nasty little edge. Becouse of this I have to consider them passible workhorse troops. They are useful for attacking Rebel armies and holding cities. Don't deploy them in your main army but they can be expected to put up a competant defence-especially when upgraided via war shrines and smiths


    Archers:
    Bog-standard archers: you know what to expect here. Unfortuantly they're the only archer unit you get so they'll be the ones you use. good at defending cities and supporting fire. They're useful in fighting Nomad armies with their large numbers of horse archers and whiddling down the enemies numbers prior to attack or their attack. Since their the only archer unit you have their the ones your stuck with. On the bright side their numbers are easily refreshed due to their low tech level so their field time is far superior to a number of units they'll be fighting along side. In addition you can be used to shoot religious units-those god botherers are in such small numbers that a couple of volleys will shred them

    Foederati
    As much as I hate filthy barbarians, The Foedereti are the first good unit you get. Able to fight quite well They'll be used extensilvly in early game where you'll need them to make up the numbers of your commitares with these guys. when your first able to deploy armies these will form up the flanks with the Comitatanes as the centre. Use them as standard spearmen: to engage cavalry, hold positions or defend walls and you can't go far wrong. I would recomend replacing them with auxilerie palicia in mid game (less barbarians more romans!) since their superior in everyway. Very usefull as local defence militias against bandits, rebels and low level barbarian armies- not so good against hordes or proffessional armies.

    Foederati Cavalry
    You'll have loads of these at the start but you should disband them imediatly becouse they cost too much money and are frankly rubbish. They're useful in the bog standard sort of way for standard light cavalry roles: souting, flank attack, killing light infantry and running down the enemy when they rout however they cost to much, and you need that money elsewhere. By the time you're able to afford them Samatian cavalry are more largely available. which are far better in every respect (plus they look cooler). Simply put don't bother.

    Priests
    An interesting unit. Let me ask you question why would druids not be as useful to a roman army than they were to the Gauls? answer: Becouse romans have high moral and good fighting capabilites so don't need a bunch of chanting weirdos to hold them together. The same applies here: the higher teer roman units don't need a priest, especially if they're raised in a Mithras settlement. Simply put for Romans you're better off having another unit of comitatanes in the field or more acuratly, raising two units of comitatanes in the time it takes to raise one unit of priests. That said, for low tech or city guard armies the priest comes into his own with half hearted pansy squad you'll probably be forced to use in the initial stages of the campaighn (all troop types listed above this unit) they need the priest to boost their dubious combat ability. They're also usefull in sieges where they boost the resolve of the men on the walls who are often in a lot of trouble. Overall I would consider this unit a novelty in big league Roman armies but more useful in low tech forces or barbarian mobs. Still on the bright side they look very cool.

    Comitatanes/plumbatarii
    As both these units are very simular we shall discuss them as one. The meat of the roman army the 'legionare' infantry while not on par with their preddessors they are still formidable. very simular to the pre-marian pricipes in style and combat capabilities. They can't form tetsuo but can throw javelins prior to attack and can be counted on to fight well in most battles. Deploy as your standard infantry as soon as possible they'll can be relied on to win most fights they encounter-especially when theirs loads of them. The plumbatarii are simular to the Comitatanes but slightly better (the game developers should have made the gap larger or made them more differant) and should be deployed in your best army instead of the Comitatanes. However in for most of your armies I would recomend Comitatanes since their a tier lower on the military tier and are thus easier to replenish when on campaigh.

    Comitatanes 1st cohort
    Banner boys for the army. Slightly better than regular Comitatanes and their banner boosts moral, I try to have one in every army as a tough core to the army. I tend to place it behind the main line ready to engage the enemy should any units rout The high requirements mean they'll be hard to replenish when out in the field

    Auxilia palitia
    The elite unit for the West roman army. Probably the best spear unit in the game with combat capabilities far out classing their usually low level colleages. Despite this they should be treated in a simular manner to all spearmen and deployed and used as usual: to engage cavalry and protect flaks and in street city fighting. They just do it better than everyone else! Can form shield wall boosting their defence.

    Bucellarii
    an odd unit, armed with crossbows you'd be forgiven for treating them like their medieval pals but they seem to function differantly, They can hold their own in close combat resonably well and can fire short range but fairly effective bolts. This makes them ideal for sieges where they function well as shooters and wall fighters. Their tactical flexibility seems their greatest advantage allowing them to be used as a light infantry unit or a tactical infantry unit. However they're quite high up on the ladder so my usage of them was limited by the need to raise other more key units but if you have the time and money they seem a sound investmant. Very fragile against cavalry attacks.

    Praeventores
    Another odd unit, a sneaky unit for want of a better word. I found them very good at flank attacks were their ability to hide pays off. Best deployed in small skirmishes and ambushes were their meaty attack rate shines. However the time they take to produce and the limited usefulness of the unit mean they were a rare sight due to the the large scale battles I was forced to continously fight: where their use is limited. best used in small skirmishes or as ambushers.

    Samatian cavalry
    medium/Heavy cavalry and in all likelyhood the only cavalry you'll need. Good solid unit which can be relied on as shock troops and flank attacks. If you're skilled you can herd horse archers into them-which they will eviscerate. I also used them for hunting down hoard generals with some sucess. I usually had them fight along side the general as a 'hammer' to the infantry's 'anvil' where I slammed into enemy forces flanks for devasating effect.

    Equites Sagittarii
    Horse archers of all things to see in a Roman army. Although I've made minimale usage of them they do appear to be skilled at what they do despite lack of circle formation they where capable of holding up and harrasing enemy horse archers very effectivly. However they do not mesh well with the rest of the Roman army so Their usage was minimal. An idea may be an pure cavalry army with them and Samatian cavalry for rapid responce throughtout your vast Empire This role could suit them well if you can find the money.

    Scholae Palatinae
    The other heavy cavalry unit. Rarer and less rough and ready then the Samatians they are however diciplined and heavily armoured. I mostly used them in my Italian elite army where they performed well when we pushed into the Eastern Roman territory but usually you're better of using the Samatians for their lower tech requirements and faster porduction rate.

    Imperial German Bodyguard
    General unit. Despite their origins as Barbarian filth they fight very well. The generals on BA are fairly hard to kill. The Imperial German Bodyguard being one of the best. They will usually defeat any Cavalry unit on equal footing with the acception of eastern catatanks. Use him to massacre small low tech armies and as a tide turner in more crucial battles.

    Carriage Ballistae
    Very weird unit. Effective of the few occasions I've used them but very vulrable to missle fire. They can't fire on city walls so I see limited practical usage for them except as a novilty.

    More to come.
    Roma locuta est. Causa finita est

  14. #104

    Default Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)

    That is a very detailed overview of the WRE army. How about the ERE or the franks ot saxons next?

  15. #105

    Default Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)

    Some comments and elaborations on the unit guide.

    Limitanei are quite decent for such a low level unit. An important role I use them for that wasn't mentioned is as river guards during the numerous bridge battles. They'll have plenty of time to fire off all their pila at the swimming Herdsmen or Horde horse archers, then they're a spear unit holding high ground against cavalry with weak melee ability, Winded or worse from their swim. A single limitanei on each flank has always been plenty to defeat the amphibious portion of a horde bridge assault - very cheap and effective.

    A note about archers - they'll start with surprisingly good experience. IIRC archers from Rome (built on turns when money is tight and you can't afford Sagittarii, artillery, or whatever) come out with two silver chevrons once you have the Mithras temple, plus the silver equipment. That's a fine little unit! So the basic stats you see in provincial towns with just a minimal archery range are a bit misleading, look to Rome to see what your archers can really do.

    Slight disagreement about the Foederati; I find them to be pretty much a toss-up with limitanei. Stats are similar since the limitanei have +1 experience over the foederati, and the pila are generally quite handy. Not to mention the cheaper upkeep on the limitanei. ERE Legio Lanciarii are a more worthwhile step up from the limitanei, IMHO.

    A note about auxilia palatina - they own the bridges (just as comitatenses and variants own city walls).

    Bucellarii - relatively short range, and flat trajectory like the RTW slinger units. As such, I've found them difficult to use effectively. They have to be in front or on flanks to clear a line of fire, and since cavalry is more common and effective in BI than RTW that's a very dangerous place for a light infantry/missile unit to be. They're useful enough to not disband, and sometimes it's worth picking up mercenaries, but I can't imagine building these instead of archers. City garrison is a good call for these guys.

    The Sagittarii are indeed quite good, I use them a fair bit. Similar to ERE hippo-toxatai, with a bit more emphasis on melee than missile strength. Again, Rome's foundry and Mithras temple (once you build it) make these guys really shine. The one drawback is that these guys can swim, so they're useless for the pursuit phase of bridge battles (swimmers will always swim rather than use the bridge, for some reason); you need the general and the Sarmatians for that. I'd build even more, but typically Rome is the only place that can build them for many many years, and other units need a fair bit of that production time. Plus personally I read the flavor text about how they didn't work in NW Europe (cold wet winters ruining the bows) and only let myself employ them in the Danube/ERE border sector.

    Carriage ballistae - these guys are no "limited practical usage ... novelty"!! With the possible exception of generals bodyguards, there is no more ridiculously overpowered uber-unit in the game! And these guys are much more entertaining to use than the generals. In any open field battle not involving a horde, you will win if you have one of these. They're fine against hordes, too, you just have to be very careful that the horse archers don't stray too close - bridge battles work well, as always. They are pretty useless in city fights, but the Roman factions already dominate those so that's not a big deal.

    Meghas Alexandros - for ERE, take the above. Hippo-toxatai are marginally better than Sagittarii (mostly because the h-t can't swim); legio lanciarii are better than the foederati infantry, and are the best spearmen the ERE ever get; cataphracts and clibanarii are both very good but are very similar, personally I didn't see one as being noticeably more effective than the other; you don't get Sarmatians, so ERE has no effective melee cavalry until the cat/clib at the top level stable building - this is annoying at times. Oh yes, eastern archers rock, more or less making up for the melee cavalry problem. So you end up with more missile-heavy armies without the shock and pursuit punch you might be used to from WRE armies. In practice, the ERE is probably a tiny bit better off because the missile armies are better suited to the defensive battles the Romans have to fight (bridges, cities). The comitatenses mean they can still win offensive city assaults without hardly trying, the only potential difficulty is an open field fight against hordes - they'll probably win, but it won't be as crushing as a WRE win would be. Battles between the ERE and WRE are symmetrical enough that it comes down to tactical skill, which means the player always beats the AI regardless of who is on which side.

  16. #106

    Default Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)

    Quote Originally Posted by jhhowell

    Limitanei are quite decent for such a low level unit. An important role I use them for that wasn't mentioned is as river guards during the numerous bridge battles. They'll have plenty of time to fire off all their pila at the swimming Herdsmen or Horde horse archers, then they're a spear unit holding high ground against cavalry with weak melee ability, Winded or worse from their swim. A single limitanei on each flank has always been plenty to defeat the amphibious portion of a horde bridge assault - very cheap and effective.
    Yeah as I said they are deceptivly usefull however I overall find the Foederati
    more usefull in the 'main' armies especially as combat experiance builds up. I'd recomend using them as defensive troops rather than staple guys.


    A note about archers - they'll start with surprisingly good experience. IIRC archers from Rome (built on turns when money is tight and you can't afford Sagittarii, artillery, or whatever) come out with two silver chevrons once you have the Mithras temple, plus the silver equipment. That's a fine little unit! So the basic stats you see in provincial towns with just a minimal archery range are a bit misleading, look to Rome to see what your archers can really do.
    I don't think this is a fair assesment of them-considering that other factions archers have access to simular perks-meaning that they'll be an heavily upgraded mediocre unit in contrast to a heavily upgraded Good unit.

    I'll be discussing religious shrines in part two

    ERE Legio Lanciarii are a more worthwhile step up from the limitanei, IMHO.
    Not strightly speaking relavent for a Western army

    A note about auxilia palatina - they own the bridges (just as comitatenses and variants own city walls).
    I'll expand on this they're useful in any close quarters fighting where numbers are not an issue.


    but typically Rome is the only place that can build them for many many years, and other units need a fair bit of that production time. Plus personally I read the flavor text about how they didn't work in NW Europe (cold wet winters ruining the bows) and only let myself employ them in the Danube/ERE border sector.
    That's essentially the problem. They're not practical for long term campaighns in the west-you have more important units to produce-and siege battles to fight. Their just not that useful compared to other units which you need more.

    Carriage ballistae - these guys are no "limited practical usage ... novelty"!! With the possible exception of generals bodyguards, there is no more ridiculously overpowered uber-unit in the game! And these guys are much more entertaining to use than the generals. In any open field battle not involving a horde, you will win if you have one of these. They're fine against hordes, too, you just have to be very careful that the horse archers don't stray too close - bridge battles work well, as always. They are pretty useless in city fights, but the Roman factions already dominate those so that's not a big deal.
    They get shot to pieces against nomad armies and expode on contact with any soldiers their shooting abilities are just brutal but unless you manage to fight every battle as a bridge one they'll eviserate two to four units before disapearing under a hail of arrows-leaving with a wasted two turns where you could have been producing something cheaper and more long term .

    ERE .
    This is the western Roman empire write for those Bearded wannabe Roman Greek fops in ERE guide :P

    Quote Originally Posted by Meghas Alexandros
    That is a very detailed overview of the WRE army. How about the ERE or the franks ot saxons next?

    I've already written a Saxon one if memory serves. I'll be revising that once I'm done here.
    Last edited by Mithras; 02-03-2007 at 13:36.
    Roma locuta est. Causa finita est

  17. #107

    Default Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithras
    [Carriage ballistae] get shot to pieces against nomad armies and expode on contact with any soldiers their shooting abilities are just brutal but unless you manage to fight every battle as a bridge one they'll eviserate two to four units before disapearing under a hail of arrows-leaving with a wasted two turns where you could have been producing something cheaper and more long term.
    Not if you're careful they don't. They appear to be just as fast as horse archers, so if you notice the horde archers moving into range, pull back. This does require frequent pausing and micromanagement, so it may not suit all player's styles... Fighting every horde battle at a bridge is trivial to arrange, if one so chooses (I've come to regard it as a bit of an exploit), so those who prefer not to micromanage can still get good use out of carriage ballistae against the hordes. Also, the hordes are just two or three of many foes the WRE has to fight - a carriage ballista unit is priceless for crushing the Franks, ERE, Celts, or Berbers, if the player wishes to do so. The Frankish border is the obvious place, send a carriage ballista unit there and pull many of the local comitatenses back to Rome for refit and redeployment to the Danube. The ERE invasion tends to have very few hippo-toxatai, so a carriage ballista unit will do very well there too.

    If your carriage ballistae ever contact enemy soldiers, you're doing something badly wrong.

    In terms of production trade-offs, my preference (money permitting) is to have Rome alternate between carriage ballistae and equites sagittarii, with archers on the turns with little available cash. An onager or two to hasten the conquest of ERE cities sounds nice, but I've found they're too slow to make a difference. I use Ravenna for Sarmatians, then auxilia palatina when the higher level barracks is ready. In time, Mediolanum or Tarentum can contribute additional Sarmatian production.

    I don't think pointing out the strength of archer units from Rome is irrelevant. Other factions could do that, if they spent the time and money to get their high level archery building and a foundry (and XP temple, if applicable). Rome starts with the first two in place and can convert to Mithras fairly early. That's an advantage which AFAIK is unique to the WRE.

  18. #108

    Default Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)

    Of faith and honour: Loyalty and religion revised


    Religion
    I've noticed that many player take one look at the monestery and jump on the Jesus bandwagon. Despite the obvious perks of sighning up for the Jehova it isn't as simple cut as it initially looks. Their are perks of both sides and which faction you choose is a lot more complex than a 15% happyness bonus. It's also worth noting that the situation varies from faction to faction on a number of differant ratios rather than trying to access religion as a whole it's better to study it faction by faction. For example I would consider Paganism better for the Celts but Christianity the superior choice the the Franks. In this section we shall be considering the benifits of Paganism vs Christianity for the Western empire.


    Paganism
    Pro's
    paganism has access to two very good temples within the empire-mithras and solar invictus. Now despite my opinion that their isnt enough time and detail put into either of these shrines (they should both easily have 5th teer production and Mithras should have loads of awsome personality traits and unique retinue members) both the pagan temples are very useful and worthy of consideration.

    Mithras is not only a warrior shrine but also gives a nice loyalty boost to law and happyness. The experiance bonus means that pagan settlement armies will usually unit for unit be superior to their christian counterparts. The law bonus will weaken corruption within your vast Empire whilst combining with the minor happyness bonus in keeping the Plebs happy. The shrine also comes with a number of Military ancilleries and positive personality Traits. The Tier one the Mithras shrine is by far the best with both a happyness bonus law bonus and experiance bonus. If you're going to go Pagan use these Shrines for Key military productions cities.

    Sol invictus is a good solid public control shrine with a very meaty bonus to population loyalty- in fact it's slightly better than the christian ballicia (although the latest patch evens it out more). The Law bonus is very usefull with regards to corruption in the Empire-Helping ease that money crisis you have. The Shrine is also a leadership one encouraging positive personality traits and usefull ancilleries. If you're going to go Pagan use these Shrines for all non-military cities due to their superiour production values.

    Theirs also the consideration that the bulk of your cities are pagan meaning that it's easier to consolidate. Due to you initial religious distribution of faiths in the map your mostly pagan barbarian pals easier to pacify when you start marching across the rhine to remind them of the good old days. Finally Gladiatorial games seem to be in favour of the old ways and logicly this means they function most fluidly in a pagan empire (Although this one is questionable).

    Cons
    No priests: although not as devstating as missing say...paladins, the absence of priests is still something to be noted. ultimatly christianitys happyness bonus is way higher than paganism's meaning that overall christianity makes for a happier population. Plus you don't get theological goodies as pagans ( 'artifacts' found by constantines mum and famous Christians in your retinue) which are very useful for law and happyness. You'll also have to deliberatly kill your emperor and change the faction heir if you want to go Pagan loosing one family member and damaging one (former faction heir trait) weakening your already unsteady empire. You'll also have to deal with a number of Pagan Generals milling around your Empire who's usefullness is limited. the final problem is that of other factions-pretty much every other faction is pagan since the AI lack the intelligence to convert to their factions leaders religion or trash opposing Shrines this means that you'll be constantly exposed to Pagan pressure in the form of Hordes full of heathens causing mass conversions in areas and external border pressure undermining your attempts to convert in the north.

    Christianity
    Pro
    Christianity gives the player access to the monstery ladder. Allowing for a usefull 5-15% bonus to happyness and access to priests which are useful in the low tech cannon fodder you may be forced to field early on. The started emperor is christian, as is his heir which of coarse makes christianisation all the smoother. Christian Bastilla is also the highest teer temple available allowing for the most bonus' to population in general. The christian sturctures have population growth bonus' which allow for rapid climbing on the governor building ladder. You can also gain a huge and often vital cash boost from trashing all those pagan sites to help get your economy back on the road. barbarian factions tend to be pagan meaning they will have a hard time dealing with your christian cities if they capture one. Finally christians get all kinds of cool retinue stuff famous theologians, bishops and bits of the cross all come with fairly nice features such as law bonus' healing abilities and other such virtues. Christians also tends to acculmulate a huge conversition bonus meaning that a Good Christian will spread the faith like Jesus himself.

    Cons
    Firstly the bulk of your empire is Pagan, the bulk of your cities veiw christianity the same way I veiw jehova's witnesses:avoid at all costs. If you attempt to convert your empire too fast and to carelessly you will suffer a truly brutal uprising resulting in the emerging green rebels becoming a full fledged faction within your own borders: very very bad. If you're going to christianise do it slowly and gently, starting in italy spreading out into Gaul while waiting to the pagan/christian family member ratio to slip in your favour. Unit for unit pagan Mithratic armies are better than christian armies: the priest simply doesnt have the same clout as the experiance bonus (although better still why not combine both?). The population growth bonus while usefull can often be something of liability if you don't have the money to upgrade goverment buildings as it constantly pushes up the poverty bar through population at the highest tier of buildings. Finally, something that George bush is living proof of (just kidding) christianity creates negative charecter traits. Large numbers of my christians (about 1/3rd at one point) join one or another heresy increasing unrest or make those damnned vows of poverty cutting my cash flow Pagans do not suffer from this problems with the same severity- although it should noted their are quite a few 'good' christian traits to help ease this problem.

    Conclusions

    Overall both christianity and paganism have solid perks and problems. I believe it's ultimatly up to the discretion of the player which one he chooses. One thing I will say that you must choose. trying to balance the empire between christian and pagan requires resoarces beyond your capability although you can maintain some shrines for the opposite religion. You will have to favour one for simply practical purposes. I choose pagan initially becouse I wanted a differant experiance to what I did with the eastern empire.

    Side notes

    1)A little trick I picked up on was that once a monestery is built it doesnt matter what religion you follow in the region. Meaning in a number of formally christian sites still had the happyness boost when I converted them: also allowing me access to priests from a 100% pagan population which I dubbed priests of Mithras......if anyone in the empire comments on this I'll remind them I'm the emperor and I know where they live. I assume this is simply the pagans taking control of areas when they've reclaimed them from christians. Be careful however since you can accumulate negative pagan traits in family members from hanging around these places (atheism, hates Christianity).

    2)If I was going for a smash and trash attack or if a region was about to fall I'd build a shrine opposite the religion of the people making it very hard to hold for whoever set up shop when they took the region.Especially if the conversion is still lower than the overall conversion bonus for other faiths: I remember being darkly amused watching the Allemani tribe have to fight a constant battle to keep their capital.

    3)Whichever faith you choose to favour keep 2-3 of your cites of the other faith. This will give you somewhere to drop of family members of that faith and allow you limted access to the perks of that religion (priests or experiance bonus) good areas for christianity are north africa and for Paganism great britain.

    4)For love of all that is sacred do not decide who to side with on what religion you follow in life!
    a) data streams do not have souls
    b)combine the most radical terrorists and weird apocalypse cults of the modern world and that's what the christians of the 4th century looked like: not only really violent and intolerant but also completly insane.
    c)Pagans are almost as bad and in some repects, worse.
    d)Neither religion resembles their modern counterparts very much.
    Choosing which religion to side with should be a pure strategy, terms of challange or at a pinch asthetic preferance. If you're deciding how to play computer games on what god/s think then I'm probably going to avoid you if i see you one the street. Choosing religion on asthetic preferance is fine choosing religion out of spiritual concerns is just plain weird.
    5)If you're pagan keep and eye out for any really good shrines in barbarian lands and retrain your armies there: you may even get lucky and pick up some good retinue followers.
    6)Trash any Zorostrian temples you get immediatly.
    7)try to make sure Generals are of the lesser religion: that way they won't have personality defects from spending time with the wrong temple.
    8)I tend to tinker with the temples a little. Usually I'll add a conversion trait to pagan priests (although this guide is based on a regular version) Here's the pagan trait for any would be modders:

    Religious_Belief pagan 1


    Loyalty/titles
    A serious issue in the western empire. Not only do revolts cause disruption but also cause defects in family members and fully functioning enemy factions within your lands squandering vast amounts of precious resoarces to quell them. Firstly keep an eye on loyalty bars, try to make sure that powerfull generals and governors have a title and watch them. A good trick I found was to make the emperor head of at least one army ensuring that at least one army (usually the best overall) would never betray me (latest patch emperors can't defect). I also found keeping a small but potent army led by a captain in spain, italy, britain and other geographical blocks meant that if a family member defected their would be someone to restore roman law in any region. Finally be sure to make sure that Titles and imperial guard are distrubited to useful Generals to keep them in the good books
    Roma locuta est. Causa finita est

  19. #109
    Slow left-arm orthodox Member Calgacus's Avatar
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    Question Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)

    Excellent posting lads. Does anyone happen to know of an online unit guide for the BI which details unit statistics (attack/defence/HPs etc...)? I understand that their is an official published guide to BI which contains this info, but that it's quite badly flawed and not worth the tin.

    If anyone could point me in the right direction I would be most grateful.
    Calgacus

    [Exit, pursued by a bear]

  20. #110

    Default Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)

    Just go here.

  21. #111
    Slow left-arm orthodox Member Calgacus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix
    Just go here.
    Cheers for that, Phoenix. It's just the job.
    Calgacus

    [Exit, pursued by a bear]

  22. #112

    Default Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)

    Hey everyone, I've read just about all of the advise in this forum about the Western Empire and it is REALLY helpful and I thank you all. I took one look at the Western Empire after just playing it for the first time and man... did I cry... When the religious aspect came up I looked at the surrounding tribal cities that bordered the empire and thought that Paganism was here to stay. It made things easier for me in assimilating barbarian cities becuase the Christian cities keep complaining of "Heathens over the river" and start to revolt. Any other advice on the Religious aspect? Oh and does anyone know if the Testudo formation is in the game... man I loved that move and it was damned handy!!! As you've probably guessed I haven't completed the game with any faction yet lol!
    What we do for our children dies with us and us alone, what we do for others and the world lives immortal

  23. #113
    RTW V1.5 & BI V1.6 Member Severous's Avatar
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    Default Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)

    Hi

    I documented a few of my campaigns. Pictures and comments of interest showing either general tactics/strategy or faction specific tips.

    WRE does not have a lot of basic detail as it was one of my most recent. But I hope you will find it interesting. I too decided on Paganism as my religion for WRE.

    http://rtw.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/f...=10,5908,30,45

    Enjoy.
    Regards
    (RTW Eras: RTW V1.5 and BI V1.6 No Mods)

    Currently writing a Scipii AAR (with pictures)
    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=91877

    Barbarian Invasion. Franks hold out against the world.
    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=77526

  24. #114

    Default Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)

    Wow your all such nice people, lol. Anyway, I just started today playing, again for like the 50th time, the Western Empire, I decided to scrub my last save and start again. This time I turned to Christianity, I know "What the hell am I thinking?!" but it turns out that following history and turning every town Christian, over a slow given time, had great GREAT benefits for the Empire. I was able to manage each city and now I don't get any riots, this is about 375 AD now. However the Hunnic Hordes came knocking at my Eastern front,I suppose to make up for the good thats happened, the bit of the empire that borders with the Eastern Empire. From earlier posts I took the suggestions of establishing forts at each entry-exit point of the empire, with what little money I could scrap considering I changed to Christianity... MANY RIOTS!!! lol. With the forts established on the Eastern border I fended the hunnic incursion with quite a miracle!! This campaign I entered with little hope but now... I think I'll change history... PAX ROMANA!!!! Man the Romans were cool, especially with the Barbarians in their ranks. Oh erm... is Testudo in it? Sorry to ask again I just loved that formation.
    What we do for our children dies with us and us alone, what we do for others and the world lives immortal

  25. #115

    Default Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)

    Oh and I forgot to thank you Severous sorry. Oh and another question, I've noticed in the pictures through that link you added your Unit cards had 160 Limitanei, EACH!!! How?? I can only get 80 in each of my unit cards. Again I appreciate any help!!
    What we do for our children dies with us and us alone, what we do for others and the world lives immortal

  26. #116

    Default Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)

    I agree with you Severous, I love playing as Romans too. As soon as the Western Empire popped up in a game I just HAD to play as them and low and behold they are my favourite faction too!
    What we do for our children dies with us and us alone, what we do for others and the world lives immortal

  27. #117
    RTW V1.5 & BI V1.6 Member Severous's Avatar
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    Default Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)

    Hi Gizmo04

    Sorry for delay responding. I dont visit here every day.

    Re your recent posts:

    - Well done of beating the Huns. Are you on the way to winning that campaign ?

    - Testudo. No dont remember seeing that in BI. Not often ive used it myself in RTW. In the historical battle against the Perthian horse archers perhaps. I dont play my campaigns long enough to develop troops capable of testudo.

    - Thanks for the thanks. You are welcome

    - The unit size. You can only change befroe you start a campaign...not part way through a campaign. Go to optioons, advanced video options, and alter the unit scale. Mine was on huge setting...yours is on large.

    - Im not advocating Romans as best. I like playing all factions..once. They are unique in BI. Their large empire is going to fall apart. Very different from the normal start small and expand RTW campaigns.

    Enjoy your gaming.
    Sev
    Last edited by Severous; 06-20-2007 at 22:57.
    Regards
    (RTW Eras: RTW V1.5 and BI V1.6 No Mods)

    Currently writing a Scipii AAR (with pictures)
    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=91877

    Barbarian Invasion. Franks hold out against the world.
    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=77526

  28. #118

    Default Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)

    lol no I didn't think you'd visit this site everyday I assumed you had better things to do first.

    Well the Hunnic advance through my western front with the Eastern Empire was delayed by the forts for 3 turns, which gave just enough time to train 3 units of commitantes, sorry misspelled, to advance to the forts to help them out. The odds were heavily stacked against me 1:25 so I really had to think about what I was doing. I had my family general, Oppius, that pagan heathen!!! Anyway, as much as I wanted him dead, I couldn't let him die here or I'd lose for sure because those "Gothic witches" are already scary enough. So I got my rough hardened commitantes to equally match positions with the incoming rams and got them to fire at will.
    Then, being the smart AI that it is, they fired there hail of missiles which, quite litterally, blocked out the sun... I had all the commitantes still, more or less, ok but the General suffered a great loss becuase it was only him out of his bodyguards left. I never thought I'd say this but thank those Pagan gods... or maybe they wanted him to die another way? Anyway When the "Gothic bitches, oops sorry meant it, witches" got in they , eventually, broke through my commitantes with significant losses on their end and Oppius kinda high tailed it each time they got close to him... can't say I blame him they still had 500 left, most of their missile cavalry.

    So the campaign went from a relatively slow gorey start, rebellions and what not, to the high peak of my economic wealth, to the Hunnic hordes running through the balkan region unchecked. Things got worse when I tried to "Check" them by taking soldiers out of nearby forts to stop them... or atleast thin them... but hordes that stayed out along the borders by the forts took them and began rampaging through my Rhine defense and Danube defense (Franks + Vandal incursions across the Rhine and Sarmatian incursions across the Danube) I was royaly screwed!! overall.
    When I seen history kinda re-enact itself in my campaign I was kinda like Constantine looking over the walls of his capital when the "Ottomans" showed up... Bollocks...

    Any recommendations for managing the economy and the army at the same time effiently? Because at each fort I had 3 limitanei, as it was all I could spare. Oh and how do you build forts closer to bridges I can only build them to a point where enemies can just sneak by and walk about your lands Sorry to ask alot, when it comes to barbarian invasion... being a veteran of the old days only takes you so far... and other people may think of things that I don't. Again everyone VERY MUCH appreciated.

    Arg... I kinda liked testudo... well... back to the old drawing board to re-think strategy...
    What we do for our children dies with us and us alone, what we do for others and the world lives immortal

  29. #119

    Default Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)

    A good way to beat horse archers is with foot archers. After one of my regular armies got mauled by a horde stack I made a new anti-HA army that had 4 cavalry, 8 Plumbatarii, and 8 Archers. I didn't bother with forts or Limitanei much, I just had my anti-HA armies attack any Horde stacks that got too close and garrisoned any threatened cities with half-stacks of Comitatenses/Plumbatarii and Archers. The Franks don't have HA but do have good infantry, especially if they become a Horde, I wouldn't use any infantry short of Plumbatarii against them. A couple Carriage Ballistae will wreak havoc on them as well since they don't have long-ranged archers.

    As to building forts...if you build them adjacent to the bridge/ford, enemies can't get through them until after they take it so maybe you missed a spot? Or, if you mean you can't build them where you want to then it's the terrain, forts can't be built in flooded regions or in certain types of terrain.

  30. #120

    Default Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)

    Thanks phoenix! Yeah I just started the Western Empire again, Damn hordes!! But what happens in the course of this game is what makes it so ADDICTIVE and BRILLIANT!! Anyway I just started the West and I've changed state religion to Christianity, I have to admit it does help in the long run with the green happy faces, even when high taxed in some cities, and my Empire has began to flourish past the first 5 turns.

    Turn 1. Did the necessary changes to cities to make them christian and improve those ones still loyal as much as possible and shift armies about to appropriate regions/ cities and moved pagan generals towards the borderland areas (Rhine, Danube + Western border with the Eastern Empire). I trained at least 1 more unit of soldiers, limitanei, in each city first to help out in the re-taking of the town
    Turn 2. Cities rioted and things were set in motion to respond, as best I could to, doubtful, incursions at some borders oh and I destroyed military buildings in settlements that would enevitably rebel.
    Turn 3. I seiged the Rebelled cities with the troops taken just outside the walls of each city. All Western Roman Provinces rebelled except the Italian Peninsula
    Turn 4. Oddly enough each seiged city attacked me straight way? Anyway Each battle I made it a personal goal that I HAD to win, even when the odds were 1:5, 1 representing me lol. I assembled what soldiers I could at each entry point to my Empire to help out the family members, from hindsight they could have been used to help in the seiges.
    Turn 5. After successfuly taking back the settlements I established new trade routes, and rights, to factions just outside my gates and established alliances with the Saxons and the Franks. Again has anyone else had this problem, I couldn't ally with them in any of my previous trys as the Western Empire but now they graciously accept. Is there a mod out that helps in this?

    I also Built up a border force, again stupid error , I focused, again, on my economy which was churning out about 10,000 denarii each turn after the 7th turn. I'm really going to have to focus back on my army... Those hordes will run right through me if I don't, I only have 3 units of Limitanei gurading each entry point in. Juggling the economy and soliders as the Western Empire is quite diffcult to manage at first but it kinda smoothes over gradually through the years, for me anyway. Again thanks for the help everyone, I'll constantly be here as well as I play Barbarian Invasion
    What we do for our children dies with us and us alone, what we do for others and the world lives immortal

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