The US: Life Behind the Iron Curtain

[Tachikaze]

This article made some clear points about the Bush Regime's assault on the Bill of Rights.

http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/2...goldbergs.html

It's amazing to me that Americans think they are "fighting for freedom" or "defending freedom". Just what freedom are they talking about? They should be alarmed at what Bush is doing. The only true threat to their liberty is coming from within. Fighting for their rights begins at home, not in Iraq.

[Reenk Roink]

Why do you hate Freedom?

[Crazed Rabbit]

Right. We should fight any president who eavesdrops on thousands of americans without warrants, probable cause, FIFSA approval, and even if they are not foreign communications*. We should fight any president who uses the military and federal agencies to kill off a bunch of innocent women and children in a gross display of powerful incompetence and hate of people who don't conform and do what the government says.** We should fight any president that speaks of the rights of Americans as something that is not important***.

Luckily, Clinton is out of office and we have term limits. Ironically, Clinton was supported by the same people demanding (democrats & NYT) Bush's head for his much more limited wiretapping.

I find your title humorously overwrought. The 'Iron Curtain'? Please. It seems dems have an urge to compare Bush to evil things from the past that are orders of magnitude different from what is actually happening.

If you're so concerned about Bush becoming a dictator or what not, why don't you stock up on guns? If he really does start abusing the constitution and becoming another Chavez, then venement little letters to the editor aren't going to bring him down.

Crazed Rabbit

*NSA Echelon Program (and other instances) Here and here.
**Waco and Ruby Ridge
***"We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans" and "The purpose of government is to rein in the rights of the people"

[Spetulhu]

Luckily, Clinton is out of office and we have term limits. Ironically, Clinton was supported by the same people demanding (democrats & NYT) Bush's head for his much more limited wiretapping.

This is something I find really funny when people discuss US politics. Whenever their own side does something wrong the whole thing is swept away by pointing out how the other side did the same thing. Yet if someone else does something wrong the thing has to be stamped out NOW NOW NOW!

edit: yeah, I know, it's common in politics outside the US too.

[doc_bean]

***"We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans" and "The purpose of government is to rein in the rights of the people"

I really don't get what the big deal is about the Clinton/Lewinski affair, so what if he had lied about it, it didn't concern anything even remotely important to the public or the country.

And why does someone always drag in partisan politics ? If people say it's bad now, they don't necessarily mean it great before, just that things have gotten worse, and while Bush happens to be a republican, it certainly doesn't mean that a democrat wouldn't have done exactly the same or worse.

[Devastatin Dave]

Poor Tachi, still having trouble buying a plane ticket out of such a horrible country.
Here you go...
http://tickets.priceline.com/default.asp?rdr=1
Unfortunately it this website is another capitalist tool, but it will save you money that you can put towards weed, tie dye and Che T-shirts, Star Bucks, and Bush effigees.

[Reenk Roink]

Noooo! I smell another right/left war...

[Crazed Rabbit]

I really don't get what the big deal is about the Clinton/Lewinski affair, so what if he had lied about it, it didn't concern anything even remotely important to the public or the country.

I wasn't talking about the Lewinsky affair. But, it is ammusing to read what he said about lying Presidents when Nixon was in office, and what he said when he was the lying Pres.

And why does someone always drag in partisan politics ? If people say it's bad now, they don't necessarily mean it great before, just that things have gotten worse, and while Bush happens to be a republican, it certainly doesn't mean that a democrat wouldn't have done exactly the same or worse.

The point is that dems supported a much broader, and without any justification, wiretapping of Americans in domestic surveilence, and are now being what we call hypocrites. Does pointing out another's bad acts mean the bad acts of the first person are better? No. But it does force dems to explain how they cheerfully supported Clinton doing worse things than what Bush is doing.

Importantly to this discussion, it demands to know why Bush is such an oppressive dictator when his predessesor did worse things.

Crazed Rabbit

[Byzantine Prince]

Poor Tachi, still having trouble buying a plane ticket out of such a horrible country.
Here you go...
http://tickets.priceline.com/default.asp?rdr=1
Unfortunately it this website is another capitalist tool, but it will save you money that you can put towards weed, tie dye and Che T-shirts, Star Bucks, and Bush effigees.

LMAO! Good job Dev.

BTW, I agree with doc_bean about this. What does Clinton have to do with this, the original poster didn't say anything that would indicate that he is better, not that it is the republicans(not all of them anyways) fault that the country is making mistakes. He is clearly blaming the Bush administration.

And I still don't understand what fighting for freedom and all that crap means, and I am pretty sure it is propaganda to sensationalize war and the spying into people's homes.

[AntiochusIII]

And I still don't understand what fighting for freedom and all that crap means, and I am pretty sure it is propaganda to sensationalize war and the spying into people's homes.

Don't be so naive, BP. That's exactly what it is.

I officially designate this thread for future uses of liberal-conservative (American definition only, Canadians not welcomed ) flame war and posts of dubious, biased links on politically-charged websites.

Contestants, remember the Golden Rule: give them liberty and you are dead.

3..2..1..GO!

[solypsist]

blogs are hardly reputable sources of information. for every blog source used, there are an equal number with totally contradictory information available. that's the problem when a source has no accountability. this applies to pundit* blogs as well as average-joe ones.


*i.e. rush limbaugh, et al

[Roark]

Poor Tachi, still having trouble buying a plane ticket out of such a horrible country.
Here you go...
http://tickets.priceline.com/default.asp?rdr=1
Unfortunately it this website is another capitalist tool, but it will save you money that you can put towards weed, tie dye and Che T-shirts, Star Bucks, and Bush effigees.

Is it somehow wrong for him to be concerned about the conduct of the administration that runs his country?

Is it easier to insinuate that he is unpatriotic or anti-American rather than address the issue he has raised?

[Devastatin Dave]

Is it somehow wrong for him to be concerned about the conduct of the administration that runs his country?

Is it easier to insinuate that he is unpatriotic or anti-American rather than address the issue he has raised?

Roark, how long have you been here? Tachi has NEVER said ANYTHING positive about the United States. He does not like the system of government nor its economic structure regardless of what administration is in charge. Nothing short of reanimating Lenin and placing him in power would make Tachi happy to be an American citizen.

[Ice]

Roark, how long have you been here? Tachi has NEVER said ANYTHING positive about the United States. He does not like the system of government nor its economic structure regardless of what administration is in charge. Nothing short of reanimating Lenin and placing him in power would make Tachi happy to be an American citizen.

Which is funny because the title of the thread is "Life Behind the Iron Curtain".

[solypsist]

i imagine all Tachi wants is simply an administration that doesnt break the law and respects the constitution.

Roark, how long have you been here? Tachi has NEVER said ANYTHING positive about the United States. He does not like the system of government nor its economic structure regardless of what administration is in charge. Nothing short of reanimating Lenin and placing him in power would make Tachi happy to be an American citizen.

[Watchman]

Regardless of what party exactly it hails from, presumably. I can dig that.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Rights are overrated

Your argument = pwned.

In all seriousness, though, who cares? All presidents to it. All world leaders do it. It doesn't matter!

[Strike For The South]

Rights are overrated

Your argument = pwned.

In all seriousness, though, who cares? All presidents to it. All world leaders do it. It doesn't matter!

damn yankees and your fedralazation. We died for it once we should be prepeared to do it agian

[Papewaio]

Roark, how long have you been here? Tachi has NEVER said ANYTHING positive about the United States. He does not like the system of government nor its economic structure regardless of what administration is in charge. Nothing short of reanimating Lenin and placing him in power would make Tachi happy to be an American citizen.

I thought Tachi likes the right to protest, the right to voice his opinions... and if my poor memory serves me he might also like Nascar racing ...

[Strike For The South]

he might also like Nascar racing ...

dont say that. becuase I will start a thread and piss everyone off

[Roark]

Roark, how long have you been here? Tachi has NEVER said ANYTHING positive about the United States. He does not like the system of government nor its economic structure regardless of what administration is in charge. Nothing short of reanimating Lenin and placing him in power would make Tachi happy to be an American citizen.

I've been here long enough to see many a thread devolve into ad hominem arguments, and thought to myself "gee that actually could've been good".

I guess I was trying to provoke a better response from you...

If it's a dance that you've done with him many times before though, I can understand if you're over it. Point taken.

[Sartaq]

i imagine all Tachi wants is simply an administration that doesnt break the law and respects the constitution.

Which governement on our planet is completely free from corruption and selfish motives? I would like to know and then we can all go live there.

[Strike For The South]

Which governement on our planet is completely free from corruption and selfish motives? I would like to know and then we can all go live there.

That does not mean we should sit back and take it. If we trully want freedom we must fight tooth and nail for it. Never trust the goverment espacilly big goverment.

[IrishMike]

Which governement on our planet is completely free from corruption and selfish motives? I would like to know and then we can all go live there.

Still doesn't mean we can't try for it. Why become complacent and accept?

As for the government, I'd much rather have the president messing around with a secretary, than living under a fundementalist terror state. Freedom must be preserved at home to spread it abroad.

[solypsist]

the same could be said for police departments. i guess if/when you're on the receiving end of a baton or inflated charges you'll gladly accept the situation since this is the reality you choose to support.

Which governement on our planet is completely free from corruption and selfish motives? I would like to know and then we can all go live there.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

damn yankees and your fedralazation. We died for it once we should be prepeared to do it agian

I like states rights. It's just that individual states don't much exist anymore. We need strong state governemnts more than anything, IMHO. And small, but still relativly powerful, federal governments. States should have the ultimate say in social issues like Gay Marraige, Abortion, Religion in Schools, et cetera; Federal Government should be concerned with national security, and work with States on a State level to improve it. Also, States need to be able to keep their own regulated armed forces, in addition to a federally controlled Armed Force, so we have a backup in case China becomes a major military machine and annahilates what we have under federal control.

Ich gewinnen.

[Sartaq]

Still doesn't mean we can't try for it.

Exactly.

[Strike For The South]

Ich gewinnen.

no you lose. Right now that states are getting it rammed up there respective holes and Im not pleased.

Yo wino

[jayrock]

i imagine all Tachi wants is simply an administration that doesnt break the law and respects the constitution.

unfortuanetely neither you, tachi, or myself will ever get that, they all break rules and laws to a point.. but sadly it goes with the turf, we have such a bureaucratic gov, that to many people do not answer for their abuses..

to subject of article, im suspicous of the articles integrity, i can not find any other credible sources, but i will side with tachi on this one for a simple fact the govt already has to much authority, i want them to have to work to get every little piece of info they get. the less power thats in the hands of fed govt, and the more thats in the hands of local and state the better off we all will be, its much easier to keep tabs on local govt than the fed, especially for me, im about as far away from dc as you can get, and still be in the us.

[Kanamori]

I always find it funny when state's rights people talk about how they hate federalism too.