greek values Q

[VAE VICTUS]

i ask this question with all sincerity, im not trying to stir anything up. i believe that this is a valid question.lets avoid politics and focus on the history.

in greece, it seems that homosexual realations between men were acceptable.
alcibiadies wanting socrates,theban sacred band,bagoas and alexander,etc.
anyway, in sparta was it also acceptable? and how widespread was it in greek culture overall?

[Lemur]

im not trying to stir anything up.

You may not be trying, but it's sure as heck gonna happen. Using my special Lemur powers, I give this thread one page before it gets moved to the backroom.

[Kralizec]

It varied from time to place. There was no universal acceptance or condemnation of the practice in the Greek world. I'm sure some of the more educated organs here can fill you in on the details

[Rosacrux redux]

I don't have time for an extensive analysis or quotations, but the overview is that homosexuality the way we know it was practically unknown in ancient Greece. On the contrary, in certain societies and eras, bisexuality was not loathed - and even, in some cases, was considered not "bad" per se.

Specifically in Athens, the famous erastes-eromenos relationship is being brought up time and over again, to illustrate that homosexuality was accepted, but one should notice that the sexual aspect of this relationship is obscure and overshadowed by the Mentor-Disciple aspect of it. In any case, homoerotic relationships have been used time and time again in court as an accusation (and a quite damnable one) and several comedy writers (with Aristophanes as our prime example) made fun of those men who like to get along sexually with other me too. The expressions kynaidos (free translation: the shameless, but much more "charged" than the english word) and lakkoproktos (loose translation: sink-arse) are only two expressions used for those who engaged in relationships with men in Athens.

In Sparta there seems to be a similar to the erastes-eromenos institution in place, in the same context: Mentor-disciple. This one has been taken time and time over for a homoerotic relationship, but the evidence for such an assumption is vague at best. It is rather certain though that in the confinments of a life in barracks, any kind of homoerotic behaviour would be viewed as rather natural, although the Spartan laws contain some draconic measures for those engaging in homosexual activities.

The way I see it, bisexuality was considered an upper class vice in the greater part of classical Greece. It was not as condemnable as it became in the context of Christianity, but it wasn't the norm either. Exclusive Homosexuality OTOH, was for the greater part unknown and in the few (very few) occassions we have any reference to such practices, they are in some extremely harsh context and was considered unatural, abnormal and grotesque.

As for female homosexuality... past the notions about Sappho, there are very few and vague references, matching the woman's position in the classical society I assume, so we can't make any serious assumptions.

[Duke Malcolm]

I believe that the catamite was shamed, and the sodomite was more acceptable...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

In literature there are definate homoerotic images in the Symposium but the same poets also wrote about women. Interestingly homosexuality was often depicted as Eros "uncontrolled lust." Women were objectified and seen as objects of male satisfaction in many cases but they were also the objects of Eros.

I think homosexuality was considered unnatural but a sort of bisexuality between men and boys was acceptable. That said I think the Greeks went more for women than men, and it was more an upper class thing. The Symposium was an environment of excess where the normal rules did not apply.

In summery the "Greeks were Gay!" thing is a myth but some of them probably batted for both teams.

[Somebody Else]

Incidentally, Greek 'male love' was not the same act one would think of today - was more to do with the thighs... I think. My lecturer worries me, he gets rather too excited about the topic.

[Vladimir]

Spartan military philosophy on bisexuality (according to Discovery) seems to be the exact opposite of the U.S. military philosophy. Again, according to only one source, sexual relations with fellow soldiers were encouraged to create a stronger bond between them. In an effort to ensure that this did not slow population growth Spartan culture took some measures to sexify (love that word) women in certain ways (I can't remember the exact details).

[Sjakihata]

Ganymede was seduced by Zeus... that's all

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Yeah, there is that. The thing that confuses a lot of people is that the Greeks worshipped the male form without neccessarily wanting to jump into bed with it.

[Atilius]

Here's an article that might be illuminating:

http://www.livius.org/ho-hz/homosexu...sexuality.html

I'm not a specialist, so I can't judge the scholarship. But it seems reasonable, largely restricting itself to 4th and 5th century BC Athens due to the lack of source material from elsewhere. I believe Livius.org is well regarded.

[Idomeneas]

Spartan military philosophy on bisexuality (according to Discovery) seems to be the exact opposite of the U.S. military philosophy. Again, according to only one source, sexual relations with fellow soldiers were encouraged to create a stronger bond between them. In an effort to ensure that this did not slow population growth Spartan culture took some measures to sexify (love that word) women in certain ways (I can't remember the exact details).

what is the source for this view?

Homosexuality in Sparta wasnt encouraged at all. In fact there was nothing wrong to admire like a statue a handsome youth but it was punished by death if somebody was engaging in sexual relations. In Athens were laws against child molesting and extended to slaves too! Remember that Socrates among other was accused as a youth coruptor.

Im not saying homosexual relations didnt existed at all but im saying that it wasnt acceptable in wider society.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

What people usually ignore is that most of the surviving evidence comes from Symposia, which were outside the realm of normal experiance.

Also a lot of people these days assume that if a man and a boy are close it must be sexual.

[Vladimir]

what is the source for this view?

Homosexuality in Sparta wasnt encouraged at all. In fact there was nothing wrong to admire like a statue a handsome youth but it was punished by death if somebody was engaging in sexual relations. In Athens were laws against child molesting and extended to slaves too! Remember that Socrates among other was accused as a youth coruptor.

Im not saying homosexual relations didnt existed at all but im saying that it wasnt acceptable in wider society.

Other than the Discovery Channel, I don't know. That guy who directed Alexander (I don't know who it was, they're all the same to me) recalls that Greek boys were sexually active with each other before they reached adulthood. At another point in his commentary he tries to sound enlightened by calling Alexander a "pansexual" because he had sex with men, women, and a eunuch (maybe animals too, pansexual and all). Of course he was Macedonian so maybe that's a bit off topic.

[Kraxis]

Alexander is indeed an interesting case, but his most lengthy physical relationship was with a woman he dragged all the way from Macedonia to India and then back to Babylon. I can't recall her name, but she was obviously quite interesting for him.

[Vladimir]

Alexander is indeed an interesting case, but his most lengthy physical relationship was with a woman he dragged all the way from Macedonia to India and then back to Babylon. I can't recall her name, but she was obviously quite interesting for him.

And quite a babe in the movie too.

[Kraxis]

And quite a babe in the movie too.

Not her... The one I mentioned was a female lover he had back home he brought with him. But I agree.

[Kralizec]

Roxanne?

[Kraxis]

Roxanna was Bactrian, thus hardly from Macedonia or Greece. I don't know the girl/woman's name.

[Vladimir]

Roxanna was Bactrian, thus hardly from Macedonia or Greece. I don't know the girl/woman's name.

Was it Carl?

[Kralizec]

Sorry Kraxis, I guess I read your post to quickly. Roxanne was indeed Iranian.

I'm surprised nobody in this thread has mentioned the Theban Sacred Band yet. Probably Vladimir had that in mind when he wrote about the Spartans.
Members of the Sacred Band were lovers, mentor and pupil.

[Kralizec]

Homosexuality in Sparta wasnt encouraged at all. In fact there was nothing wrong to admire like a statue a handsome youth but it was punished by death if somebody was engaging in sexual relations. In Athens were laws against child molesting and extended to slaves too! Remember that Socrates among other was accused as a youth coruptor.

A book compiled by 2 Dutch scholars that I picked up a few months ago mentions that pederasty (between an unmarried young man and a teenage boy) was allowed in some societies, forbidden in others and not clearly forbidden or allowed in Athens. Other forms of homosexuality between citizens at least weren't forbidden (except prostitution), but subject of ridicule.
In Doric communities pederastic practices were very common, in fact in Sparta it was more of a rule then an exception. It theorises that because men generally could not marry till the age of 25 - 30, pederasty served as sort of a compensation, while simultaniously it was a kind of initiation rite for teenage boys. It nowhere mentions that it was forbidden, let alone a capital offense.
Also, homosexuality does not necessarily imply penetrative sex...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I would point out that there is a very vested political interest in proving that homsexuality was present in any part of ancient Greece, and an equelly vested interest in proving it didn't.

If the Spartans couldn't get hold of female prostitutes then I'll swallow a Naue II.