Introduction and question -

[Shrike]

Greetings, all -

Being the frugal sort, i thought I'd save webspace my making my initial salutation and question at the same time. . .

I'm a big fan of the TW series, despite not having played it a great deal. My RL is waaaay too busy to let me. For example, it took me 1.5 years to get through one round of STW; 1.5 years total time, probably 1 week of solid gameplay taken in 2 chunks.

Anywho, that's enough of a personal pity-par... I mean, introduction!

I've been working on a (vanilla) MTW campaign, English/Early/Normal, and have encountered a very frustrating behaviour on the part of the Spanish. They seem a trifle upset that I broke our alliance and invaded 4 of their provinces, and are showing their displeasure by sending piddly 25-man (man, not unit) armies to relieve sieges thereby preventing me from actually assaulting their castle(s).

I hope my description makes sense: I've invaded a province and driven the remnants of the defender's army into the provincial castle. My next move is to try to assault the castle (by dropping the local army on the castle), but when I end my turn, the defender sends a tiny army into the province. This means that the battle is set up as a seige-relief (I'm the defender), even though the attacking army is laughably small. I win, naturally, but don't get to break the seige, locking myself in for another year (and risking all that pesky excommunication and stuff).

While not technically cheating, the AI is violating the spirit of the game by exploiting a rule of gameplay - I can't see how that's in any way realistic.

I have not seen any mention of this anywhere in the forums, FAQs, or manuals - though I may have missed it. Has anyone else encountered this, or is it a result of my poor strategic skills? Does anyone have a suggestion about how to handle this beyond:

1.) Send spies to bribe the besieged? (it is spies, right?)
2.) A counter-insurgency into the "source" province of the 25 man army?

If not, then any attack would have to penetrate beyond the "target" province to create a buffer to prevent this behavior.

Thoughts? input?

[UltraWar]

1) It is Emissionaries you need... but because it isn't a rebel force it can cost costly.
2) A counter-attack seems a good idea to make the Spanish tremble

Use option 2 to save money plus easily stay in a strong position

[Csargo]

Welcome Shrike

You could bribe them especially if there arent many and if the general is not very loyal.

Or you could make a buffer
Or I think you can use spies to open up the castle gates

[Ludens]

A counter attack should work, and you don't even have to press the attack: if Spanish make a stand you can just withdraw. Do keep in mind that the officer in command of this attack can get a nasty vice for these feint attacks: this is to discourage you from doing exactly what the A.I. is doing to you. Don't do this with a general you value.

Otherwise, spies may be able to open the gate and give you a bloodless victory, but there is no guarantee they succeed. A bribe is also not a surefire way, and can be rather expensive if the garisson is big.

Welcome to the Org, BTW .

[BHCWarman88]

Mass Attack Them

Welcome to the .org :-) :-)

[Alexan]

*hi-jacks topic*

Warman you're a spammer .

*hands back topic to Shrike*

[Shrike]

Thanks for the reception and thanks for the replies! I take it that it's not unheard of for the AI to do this, though it will pay a price. The only defense/counter is by using agents and/or mitigating that maneuver through strategic planning.

I guess I'll chalk this up to Spain being a pain (hah!), and giving me more reason to spank them up and down the Iberian peninsula.

Unfortunately, I'll have to ease back and regroup - Don't want to get Excommed, had two Bandit armies appear in Mercia, finally got one of my techtrees up to Feudal Knigits, and 1205's around the corner, so I'm about to get my Billmen & Longbows.

I'll TCB for a decade or two, and then annihilate Spain.

It also occurs to me that if I'd approached this invasion in a slightly more sophisticated manner, I could have outmaneuvered Spain rather than just outgunned them - and ended up with 6 provinces in one war rather than 2. Meh. Live and Learn. And Kill Your Enemies.

[Avicenna]

Welcome Shrike!

No clue about MTW though

[BHCWarman88]

*hi-jacks topic*

Warman you're a spammer .

*hands back topic to Shrike*

Yes I am

Don't be scared to get Excommed,doesn't really matter m8..

[Ludens]

Don't be scared to get Excommed,doesn't really matter m8..

If you have enough troops or influence to keep province loyalty up, and can deal with crusades and invasions from other Catholic factions, then yes, it doesn't matter. But otherwise you are in for some serious fighting.

[cdeford]

I hope my description makes sense: I've invaded a province and driven the remnants of the defender's army into the provincial castle. My next move is to try to assault the castle (by dropping the local army on the castle), but when I end my turn, the defender sends a tiny army into the province. This means that the battle is set up as a seige-relief (I'm the defender), even though the attacking army is laughably small. I win, naturally, but don't get to break the seige, locking myself in for another year (and risking all that pesky excommunication and stuff).

While not technically cheating, the AI is violating the spirit of the game by exploiting a rule of gameplay - I can't see how that's in any way realistic.

Hi Shrike,

I'm not sure I agree with this being unrealistic - if you imagine that what the game is actually simulating is an attempt to run a seige blockade and get fresh men and supplies into the castle. Of course I have no idea if the devs thought of this and wrote it into the AI, but that is the net effect, and I am continually amazed at the depth of thought that went into this game.

[Shrike]

It's not a matter of 20 people enabling the Castle to hold out for an extra year or two, its that 20 people pull away the resources of an entire army trying to break a seige. . .

What's being simulated right now is:

I decide that I'm tired of waiting for starvation and illness to kill off the defenders. I decide to take the castle by force. I bring up my Catapults, load up my piles of rock, stock up on arrows, prepare my army of 2000 to demolish the castle until no rock remains on top of another.

Then 20 Frat boys run up and go "booga booga!" and my entire army goes marching off to do battle with them, ignoring the castle.

If those 20 people were, as you suggest, representative of people bringing supplies, it wouldn't make a lick of difference w/ regard to my attacking the castle. They'd just be better fed/equipped, that's all. If such an option were put in deliberately, I could accept the castle holding out for an extra year under normal seige conditions.

But as it exhibits right now, can't rationalize the AI's behavior as anything but an exploit of the If/Then Attack/Defense logic.

I have no idea if this is addressed in RTW or MTW II, but what would make sense to me would be for the Castle to be treated like a province within a province. I could choose to commit all my forces to attacking the Castle (with no army allotted to defend the province), I could split my army (part attacking the castle, part defending the province) or I could just defend the province, which would count as a "seige". If the AI attempted the maneuver above, it would be attacking my defending force, (one battle), and I could carry on with my castle attack (another battle).

I do like the idea of trying to help the beseiged, though. Maybe that could be a secondary job of agents. When dropped onto a besieged castle, a die-roll (with valor mods) determines success at adding a year to the garrison's "stamina"