Vlaams Belang & N-VA

[Hepcat]

This is my first topic and is on nothing related to anything being discussed at the moment but I just wondered if anyone here (particularly the Belgians) supported Vlaams Belang or the N-VA, who want Flemish independance.

I don't really see what is majorly wrong with it but it seems a bit odd to me if, after the Dutch gained independance from the Spanish and then the Belgians gained independance from the Dutch and for the Flemish (who pretty much speak Dutch) to become independant from the Belgians. Aren't they already independant?

I just thought that it doesn't seem to fit in the 'United Europe'. And if they manage it then who is to stop similar things from starting up (though they probably exist) in other countrys and Europe slowly fracturing into small little states (No I am not claiming that this will happen it is purely hypothetical).

I am not against the political parties and I do not claim to have any immense understanding of Belgian politics, I am just interested in what everyone here has to say about it.

[Fragony]

Southern Belgium is basicly living from Northen Belgium. Belgium is really two(or even 3) countries, buildings are different, language is different, I can understand that a lot of flemish want independence. It isn't Vlaams Belang selling point though.

[Hepcat]

So what is (please excuse my ignorance but I really am interested)?

[Andres]

It's a complicated matter, not so easy to explain.

When Belgium was "created", the French part was very rich, the Flemish part very poor.

The French part claim that they helped Flanders in those days, but this ain't true. As a matter of fact, the French speaking elite of our country took advantage of us, the Flemish. The word "slavery" would not be that much exagerated.

During WWII, a lot of Flemish people sympathized with the Germans, because they were sick and tired of the French supremacy. After the war, the French speaking part of our country were very angry and there were a lot of accusations.

Until the sixties, the elite spoke french. French speaking people looked at the flemish as "lesser people". Their arrogance was unimaginable.

Their was a certain movement in Flanders, that decided we had enough of it. Meanwhile, Flanders had become the economic stronger part of the country, and Wallonie was kept alive (and still is) with our money.

We started to struggle to become recognition of our language and our slightly different culture.

Actually, Belgium is always been a bad marriage between Wallonie and Flanders. A vast majority of our French speaking citizens still believes they are superior to us and they still maintain their arrogant behavior, and the Flemish, who are paying the bills of the french community, are sick and tired of it.

On the other side, we are a very peaceful people. We don't want civil war. We like the example of Tsjechoslowakia: they got split in a very civilised way.

[Fragony]

So what is (please excuse my ignorance but I really am interested)?

They are an (extreme) rightwing party, firmly against immigration and all that jazz. A bit like the Brittish BNP, but less radical.

[Peasant Phill]

You aren't from Belgium, so it's very hard to explain the whole situation.

First the the 'fracturing' as you call it is called decentralisation. It means that the central governments give some of their sovereinity to smaller governments. This is an ongoing trend with Spain and Belgium as examples. Decentralisation does not contradict the idea of an Europe as a whole. As far as the EU is concerned the country itself is still responsible.

[Hepcat]

Ok, I get it now. Sounds like what my French teacher (who is French) told me about what happened when she went to Spain. She got the feeling that the Spanish didn't like her because she was French and because of the atrocities from the Napoleonic Wars.

Though wouldn't such an event have an effect on the economy of the European Union. So which part are you from?

[Peasant Phill]

To Andres: You are quite extreme in your description of your the situation. Nuancing things never hurt anyone.

Hepcat, I'm from Flandres

[Peasant Phill]

Andres, how old are you? What do you study? First you have to completely understand the situation before you can judge. Besides it's no story of us against them.

It's a complicated matter, not so easy to explain.

When Belgium was "created", the French part was very rich, the Flemish part very poor.

The French part claim that they helped Flanders in those days, but this ain't true. As a matter of fact, the French speaking elite of our country took advantage of us, the Flemish. The word "slavery" would not be that much exagerated.

Exagerated. It was the French speaking nobles and bourgeoisie that revolted (together with the clerics) against the Dutch. It was no Flandres against Wallony, everybody with some power spoke French. In that light Belgium had a situation comparable to other nations, namely that the people with money exploited the common man. so NO WALLONS against FLEMISH and certainly not slavery.

During WWII, a lot of Flemish people sympathized with the Germans, because they were sick and tired of the French supremacy. After the war, the French speaking part of our country were very angry and there were a lot of accusations.

A sad page in our history. Because German and Flemish culture is more simular and because the Germans helped the Dutch speaking Belgians in to power (also education and other things) there was some affection for collaboration. After the war the repression had a dramatic effect on the Flemish movement.

Until the sixties, the elite spoke french. French speaking people looked at the flemish as "lesser people". Their arrogance was unimaginable.

Their was a certain movement in Flanders, that decided we had enough of it. Meanwhile, Flanders had become the economic stronger part of the country, and Wallonie was kept alive (and still is) with our money.

arrogance unimaginable? Please it was the rich that looked down on the poor not the Wallons looking down on the Flemish

The movement that you speak of started way before the sixties. WWI jumpstarted the movement that was mostly a cultural one. Think of Consience, Rodenbach, Willemsfonds ...

True Wallony is beeing kept as it was by Flemish money but this is happening all over. Think of the European money for our farming, for regional developement,... I'm not saying it's a good thing (not at all) but it does happen more often than you think. I'm just hoping that Di Rupo's Marchallplan works to modernise the Wallon economy.

Actually, Belgium is always been a bad marriage between Wallonie and Flanders. A vast majority of our French speaking citizens still believes they are superior to us and they still maintain their arrogant behavior, and the Flemish, who are paying the bills of the french community, are sick and tired of it.

On the other side, we are a very peaceful people. We don't want civil war. We like the example of Tsjechoslowakia: they got split in a very civilised way.

Again, where do you come from with those accusations about Walloons? They want to keep the current situation because it is beneficial for them (otherwise they have to change their whole philosophy about governmening) like we want to change it for our benefit.

We are a peaceful people we do not fight we just compromise.

[Peasant Phill]

Though wouldn't such an event have an effect on the economy of the European Union. So which part are you from?

Not really as the regions still form one country. There is still free trade, movement of people, money and goods and survices (like in the rest of the EU) so the situation hasn't changed economically speaking.

[Fragony]

Well they are pretty arrogant, let me tell you a little story. My brother was at the trainstation, over the speakers something was said in french. Everybody left the trainstation in a hurry. When my brother later asked what happened it turned out to be a warning for a bomb attack. The warning was only in french, while Belgium is a land with 3 national languages, madness!

[Peasant Phill]

Ah yes. The inability for Walloons to speak dutch, that can be very innerving at times. I can only say touché.

Allow me to explain why. Flemish are known to have a talent for languages. We learn apart from dutch also French, English and German. No offense Fragony but an average Dutchman can only speak English as another language (with Dutch accent BTW), while more than half of the Flemish are fluent in English and French with partial knowledge of at least one other language (all of which spoken without an Flemish accent). Walloons don't have this talent. For example in their educational system they have to chose between Duct and English. English is of course preferred. In order to communicate with each other it is necessary that one uses a different language. It is natural for the Flemish person to do this, so natural that the Walloon even expects it. This is/comes over as arrogant.

[Fragony]

Hehe, we dutch certainly love to overate our language skills, and the Flemish are never to shy to point that out to us. It is actually a problem at some of our universities, the professors are too cocky to take a few english classes. It leads to amazed foreign students who get a masterclass in dutch language directly translated to english; things like 'I was trying to lead you through the garden'. If you want to laugh at us some more(and what kind a flemish would pass up that?) read 'I always get my sin', the steam you see up north is me being emberassed

[Andres]

Andres, how old are you? What do you study? First you have to completely understand the situation before you can judge. Besides it's no story of us against them.

No need to insult me, thank you . Keep it civilised.

[Moros]

It's a complicated matter, not so easy to explain.

When Belgium was "created", the French part was very rich, the Flemish part very poor.

The French part claim that they helped Flanders in those days, but this ain't true. As a matter of fact, the French speaking elite of our country took advantage of us, the Flemish. The word "slavery" would not be that much exagerated.

During WWII, a lot of Flemish people sympathized with the Germans, because they were sick and tired of the French supremacy. After the war, the French speaking part of our country were very angry and there were a lot of accusations.

Until the sixties, the elite spoke french. French speaking people looked at the flemish as "lesser people". Their arrogance was unimaginable.

Their was a certain movement in Flanders, that decided we had enough of it. Meanwhile, Flanders had become the economic stronger part of the country, and Wallonie was kept alive (and still is) with our money.

We started to struggle to become recognition of our language and our slightly different culture.

Actually, Belgium is always been a bad marriage between Wallonie and Flanders. A vast majority of our French speaking citizens still believes they are superior to us and they still maintain their arrogant behavior, and the Flemish, who are paying the bills of the french community, are sick and tired of it.

On the other side, we are a very peaceful people. We don't want civil war. We like the example of Tsjechoslowakia: they got split in a very civilised way.

Sorry Andres but it isn't really how it really happened. Like Phill said back then it wasn't Flanders or Wallony. Not at all. It was the rich class. The revolt started in Brussels during the play: "de stomme van portici" during an Aria full of nationalism.

Then WWI probably had more influence in this matter then WWII. As it was the origin of the so called "front beweging". As those who gave the orders only spoke French while those who needed to fight were mainly only Dutch speakers. As you can imagine that caused problems. A lot of Dutch speakers got punished because they didn't listen, a lot got shot as they were accused of disertion while they just didn't know what those crazy french officers were saying. Later "de Vlaamse Beweging" was formed. (Now you can still find the VB in Vlaams Belang or the old name Vlaams Blok.)

Btw: did you know that the french speaking community even helped a bit with the promotion of the dutch language in Belgium? (mainly because to show the cultural difference with France though.)

The way Wallony enslaved Flanders is ridiculous too. Yes they had to works bloody hard. Every poor man in every country had to work **** hard back then. Yes, to what me may now call slavery. That was normal for that time. If you worked in Liège, Gent or Aalst you had to work hard. And as most industry was in Wallony it is quite logic that a lot of people from Flanders had French speaking bosses no?

Yes Wollony didn't pump money into Flanders economy. It was a poor region and not much to invest it in. Except perhaps in Gent there was little or no industry. But do you know how manny man worked in Wallony? Well then. And don't forget there wasn't a Flanders or Wallony back then. That came in 1976 (?), right?

his is my first topic and is on nothing related to anything being discussed at the moment but I just wondered if anyone here (particularly the Belgians) supported Vlaams Belang or the N-VA, who want Flemish independance.

I don't really see what is majorly wrong with it but it seems a bit odd to me if, after the Dutch gained independance from the Spanish and then the Belgians gained independance from the Dutch and for the Flemish (who pretty much speak Dutch) to become independant from the Belgians. Aren't they already independant?

I just thought that it doesn't seem to fit in the 'United Europe'. And if they manage it then who is to stop similar things from starting up (though they probably exist) in other countrys and Europe slowly fracturing into small little states (No I am not claiming that this will happen it is purely hypothetical).

I am not against the political parties and I do not claim to have any immense understanding of Belgian politics, I am just interested in what everyone here has to say about it.

There's a lot of difference between the NVA and the VB. You miht also want to name spirit wich is also a party with some pro Flanders and anti Wallony feelings. Anyway VB is probably the most extreme, their agenda isn't as extreme as it used to be (because of trials because previous agendas were racist,...) the people supporting it and the candidats still are. They haven't changed they just act like they have.

The Dutch gained independance of the Spaniards, the part wich now is Belgium didn't. They've been part of France&Holy Empire, Burgundy, Spain, France, Habsburg, United Netherlands. Did I miss any? Let me just say this much more complicated then it all seems.

You're not the only one who doesn't seem to fit.

Viva Belgique!

[Peasant Phill]

I'm sorry Fragony. It was stronger stronger then myself (pun intended). I'm merely the result of my environment. But your right it was a cheap shot to hide our inabilities on other aspects.

[Peasant Phill]

No need to insult me, thank you . Keep it civilised.

I apologize Andres, I was out of line.
I just got the feeling that you didn't know the whole picture (I'm guessing that you only learned Flemish history in het middelbaar and ). You painted a picture of us against them which is a generalization and in some aspects totally untrue.

I don't hold it against you and again I'm sorry I came down on you so hard but you have to be careful in your thinking. Nothing is just black and white.

[Andres]

On the other hand, maybe my point of view is a bit extreme, but it's hard to keep nuancing things when you grew up in Flemish Brabant, near Brussels and Wallonie.

For C***'s sake, you can even vote for a French party in my town. They have this "Union Francophone" in the city counsel. They keep claiming rights, they refuse to learn/speak our language (off course their are some exceptions, as always.), they behave arrogant if you don't want to speak French... (sorry for the use of the word "they").

Pfff, ge zou van minder "extreem" beginnen denken. Miljaarde. Ik krijg er soms stenen kl*ten van.

It's a matter of mutual respect. You can't get along if there isn't any respect. Living in an area where people speak language A and then refusing to learn that language and, even more, demanding, claiming, that those who live their have to learn and speak their language B (and, if possible, perfectly), well, it makes a loving and peaceful guy like me angry. And when you're angry, you don't nuance anymore. And you don't want to compromise anymore neither.

Well, maybe I'm too emotional on this matter.

[Andres]

I apologize Andres, I was out of line.
I just got the feeling that you didn't know the whole picture (I'm guessing that you only learned Flemish history in het middelbaar and ). You painted a picture of us against them which is a generalization and in some aspects totally untrue.

I don't hold it against you and again I'm sorry I came down on you so hard but you have to be careful in your thinking. Nothing is just black and white.

Apologies accepted.

[Peasant Phill]

On the other hand, maybe my point of view is a bit extreme, but it's hard to keep nuancing things when you grew up in Flemish Brabant, near Brussels and Wallonie.

For C***'s sake, you can even vote for a French party in my town. They have this "Union Francophone" in the city counsel. They keep claiming rights, they refuse to learn/speak our language (off course their are some exceptions, as always.), they behave arrogant if you don't want to speak French... (sorry for the use of the word "they").

Pfff, ge zou van minder "extreem" beginnen denken. Miljaarde. Ik krijg er soms stenen kl*ten van.

It's a matter of mutual respect. You can't get along if there isn't any respect. Living in an area where people speak language A and then refusing to learn that language and, even more, demanding, claiming, that those who live their have to learn and speak their language B (and, if possible, perfectly), well, it makes a loving and peaceful guy like me angry. And when you're angry, you don't nuance anymore. And you don't want to compromise anymore neither.

Well, maybe I'm too emotional on this matter.

It can not be denied that Belgium has a problem on this aspect. Otherwise there would be no need for political paries as Vlaams Belang, N-VA and Spirit (all these parties were once united in the VU that split in the 90's). Unfortunatly there is no solution in the making and what your situation is concerned I fear that it'll only get worse.

[Fragony]

It can not be denied that Belgium has a problem on this aspect. Otherwise there would be no need for political paries as Vlaams Belang

Well I could give you a few reasons why parties like Vlaams Belang are needed. You can find a lot of them in Molendijk for example. I wish we had parties like this in the Netherlands.

[Andres]

Hm.

If you can't beat them, join them?

Bonjour Messieurs, Mesdames. Comment allez-vous?

Le Vlaams Belang et le NVA? Ils vont disparaître dès que tous les Flamands sont devenus des francophones.

Voilà la solution.

[Peasant Phill]

Actually it could happen. Flanders wants the decentralisation of more aspects while Wallony is dead against it unless the communities on the edge of Brussels (Now Vlaams-Brabant) join Bruxelles with all the 'Frenchefication' as a result. This will probably not happen but Flandres will have to give up a lot.

[Hepcat]

Ok, thanks to everyone for helping me understand the situation and the rivalries between Wallony and Flanders. I knew Belgium had a French part and a Flemish part but I never actually realised that there was such a rivalry (if that is the right word) there.

Thanks again.

[Peasant Phill]

Ok, thanks to everyone for helping me understand the situation and the rivalries between Wallony and Flanders. I knew Belgium had a French part and a Flemish part but I never actually realised that there was such a rivalry (if that is the right word) there.

Thanks again.

Rivalry is a strong word but at some places it really is like that (see Andres' posts). For the most part, apart from the 'frontline' it's more like a clash of (government) cultures. Flandres has a northern culture like the Netherlands and the Scandinavian countries. In this culture, effectiveness and effeciëncy is very important. A government should be run like a company. Ethics are important and nobody gets a different treatment
Wallony has a southern (government) culture like France, Spane, Italy,... In this culture, the government is the provider. For example if there is a lot of unimployment the government will provide jobs (unlike in Flandres where it will try to increase the economy to create jobs). The heads of government (mayor, ministers, ...) will act as paters familias. A citizen can talk to them personally to get certain favors.

Both these cultures have there ups and downs and both can be seen as worthwile. Problems arise ,however, when both cultures have to govern together. Flemish people see Walloon government as corrupt (see not without cause BTW) and squandering their budget (which Flandres partly has to pay for). Walloons see Flemish people as bossy (more Flemish people so more political power) and not solidaire (=standing together). There were 2 options: 1) split, 2)compromise. We took the last option which complicated our country enormously but perhaps it was worth it.(open for debate)

P.S. Howcome you are interested in the Belgian political situation Hepcat? Most foreigners can't locate Belgium, let alone know some of the political situation.

[Andres]

which complicated our country enormously

We even have a secretary of state for "administrative simplification" (maybe bad translation, sorry for my English).

Our country is ruled by Kafka, both in Flanders as in Wallony.

About the complexity of our country: we have 9 organs who can make laws:

the "Federale Staat België" or "Etat Fédérale belge"; the "Vlaams Gewest" or "La Région Flamande", the "Waals Gewest" or "La Région Wallonne", the "Brussels Hoofdstedelijk Gewest" or "La Région Bruxelles Capital", the "Vlaamse Gemeenschap" or "la Communauté Flamande", the "Franse Gemeenschap" or "la communauté française", the "Duitse Gemeenschap", the "Franse Gemeenschapscommissie in Brussel", the "Vlaamse Gemeenschapscommissie in Brussel" and the "Gemeenschappelijke Gemeenschapscommissie in Brussel" (this is not a separate body, it's just the two gemeenschapscommissies coming together for those matters who are "bilingual"). The "Gemeenschappen" or "Communautés" have powers regarding culture, language, the persons, the Gewesten or Régions have powers mainly concerning economics. Because there is no Brusselse Gemeenschap, there are three commissions in Brussels (the gemeenschapscommissies) to exercice the "Gemeenschap"-powers there: the Gemeenschap-powers regarding Dutch matters, those regarding French matters and those regarding bilingual matters are exerciced by different gemeenschapscommissie.

We have an enormous amount of representatives and ministers. We have a premier, two vice-premiers and three minister-presidenten.

The salaries of our politicians are much higher then those of e.g. our Dutch and even our English and French neighbours.

During my studies I had this course: "Introduction to Belgian State law" (about the organisation of our country and the powers of all these bodies and the interferences between them). 800 pages! And it was just an introduction...

Oh, and then I forgot to mention the introduction to administrative law: 300 pages.

[Andres]

For the most part, apart from the 'frontline' it's more like a clash of (government) cultures. Flandres has a northern culture like the Netherlands and the Scandinavian countries. In this culture, effectiveness and effeciëncy is very important. A government should be run like a company. Ethics are important and nobody gets a different treatment
Wallony has a southern (government) culture like France, Spane, Italy,... In this culture, the government is the provider. For example if there is a lot of unimployment the government will provide jobs (unlike in Flandres where it will try to increase the economy to create jobs). The heads of government (mayor, ministers, ...) will act as paters familias. A citizen can talk to them personally to get certain favors.

Both these cultures have there ups and downs and both can be seen as worthwile. Problems arise ,however, when both cultures have to govern together. Flemish people see Walloon government as corrupt (see not without cause BTW) and squandering their budget (which Flandres partly has to pay for). Walloons see Flemish people as bossy (more Flemish people so more political power) and not solidaire (=standing together). There were 2 options: 1) split, 2)compromise. We took the last option which complicated our country enormously but perhaps it was worth it.(open for debate)

*** Looking from a distance, being able to put aside his emotions ***

A very good summary of the problem. Correct and without prejudices. Nice going Phill. At least, for a peasant...

[Kralizec]

During my studies I had this course: "Introduction to Belgian State law" (about the organisation of our country and the powers of all these bodies and the interferences between them). 800 pages! And it was just an introduction...

Not outrageously much, actually. IIRC for my course in Staatsrecht 1 I had to wade through about 800 pages as well.

[Andres]

Oh, so you have to study this crap too in Holland?

Wat een ellende, hè.

[Peasant Phill]

Andres what did/do you study?

I did/do (plan on graduating in september) master in public management (licentiaat bestuurskunde voor de nederlandstaligen) and I have encountered those courses as well. State law, Administrative law, Local governments, central governments, European law and international law