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Thread: Accurate city maps

  1. #1

    Default Accurate city maps

    I was just wondering if it would be possible to design cities to look like their historical counterparts. I wouldn't suggest this be done with all cities, but rather with some of the major ones, like Carthage, Rome, Syracuse, Athens, Tarantum, Jerusalem, Alexandria, Corinth, and so on.

    I thought of this because I was reading about the fortress in the harbor of Taranto that's been there almost since the Spartan colonists settled there, and I was wondering what it would be like to assault it in game. Some cities could be more difficult to storm than others. I think it would make the game even more interesting than it already is.
    Last edited by GodEmperorLeto; 03-22-2006 at 05:38.

  2. #2
    EB insanity coordinator Senior Member khelvan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Accurate city maps

    Absolutely, and if someone is very good with 3DSMax and has a lot of time, we could direct that person to make historical city plans.

    Unfortunately we don't have anyone on our team who we can put on this for the amount of time necessary.
    Cogita tute


  3. #3

    Default Re: Accurate city maps

    I read a thread once where a guy was making Rome. He'd got as far as modelling the seven hills and the big citadel. Looked great. Must take a mountain of time to do though.
    It's not a map.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Accurate city maps

    And that's probably only for Rome at one period. The amount of time involved is astronimical, when you think of the time span and the rate of growth/change for the various cities.

    I agree that it's definitely down on the list for things to do, what with reinforcements still being broken and all.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Accurate city maps

    I'd be down for it...

    but my computer probably won't handle the program required for mapping. I expected Rome to have a mapping tool like Medieval did. I made pretty decent maps of a few castles, and even a couple of cities (Constantinople, London, and Orleans for example).

    That, and I'm knee deep into my MA thesis. So my time is at a minimal for now.

  6. #6
    Member Member Christianus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Accurate city maps

    Hi!
    This guy might do it. You maybe just would need to ask him.
    He wrote about making Carthage over at the RTR forum:

    http://forums.rometotalrealism.org/i...howtopic=17516
    Ὦ ξεῖν', ἀγγέλλειν Λακεδαιμονίοις ὅτι τῇδε
    κείμεθα, τοῖς κείνων ῥήμασι πειθόμενοι.
    - Σιμωνίδης ὁ Κεῖος

  7. #7
    Member Member Avicenna's Avatar
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    Default Re: Accurate city maps

    Sparta would be the special one. Four villages (or was it five?) joined together with a few farms and taverns.
    Student by day, bacon-eating narwhal by night (specifically midnight)

  8. #8

    Default Re: Accurate city maps

    I would really love for someone to make a few yurts for us and lay out three levels of city plans for steppe factions. Space them out maybe, no city walls, that sort of thing. That would be able to be used over and over again in steppe settlements.

  9. #9
    Speaker of Truth Senior Member Moros's Avatar
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    Default Re: Accurate city maps

    We have had contact with that guy and we had plans for making this but we just don't have the man power and it would be one hell of a job. So the plan died since it was just almost impossible to realise with.

  10. #10
    Member Member Christianus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Accurate city maps

    Yes, Rome wasn`t built in a day, EB either:)
    Ὦ ξεῖν', ἀγγέλλειν Λακεδαιμονίοις ὅτι τῇδε
    κείμεθα, τοῖς κείνων ῥήμασι πειθόμενοι.
    - Σιμωνίδης ὁ Κεῖος

  11. #11
    EB Nitpicker Member oudysseos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Accurate city maps

    There might be a more attainable solution: many Greek cities were similar in their basic features and in particular they often featured an acropolis, so you could develop a couple of basic city plans that would more accurately represent different types of cities without involving all the work of modelling each famous city from 272 BC. Thus you could have model 1, the flat grid, and model 2, the acropolis city. Maybe down the line we could have a city with a river through it (and lovely defensible bridges). They won't be specifically historically accurate but would be loads better than the one-size-fits all that we have now. Barbarian villages already feature a hill, so I know that cities don't always have to be flat. I'd be more than happy with something in this direction, even if the Acrocorinth isn't accurately modelled.
    οἵη περ φύλλων γενεὴ τοίη δὲ καὶ ἀνδρῶν.
    Even as are the generations of leaves, such are the lives of men.
    Glaucus, son of Hippolochus, Illiad, 6.146



  12. #12

    Default Re: Accurate city maps

    Yeah, I'd be happy with just one set of more realistic greek city plans with a small acropolis. One set of more realistic steppe city plans with more spacing. One set of more realistic barb plans with oppida. Etc. But it takes people with some serious desire and ability to do it, and certain skills that we have in short supply.

  13. #13
    Amanuensis Member pezhetairoi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Accurate city maps

    Say, could you bring that Carthage guy over here and ask him if he could show us some of his work for carthage? I would really, personally, love to see his work, and if it could be applied to the city plans in the game en masse, I would be most glad.


    EB DEVOTEE SINCE 2004

  14. #14
    EB Nitpicker Member oudysseos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Accurate city maps

    Quote Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou
    Yeah, I'd be happy with just one set of more realistic greek city plans with a small acropolis. One set of more realistic steppe city plans with more spacing. One set of more realistic barb plans with oppida. Etc. But it takes people with some serious desire and ability to do it, and certain skills that we have in short supply.
    I'd say don't worry about it. Get EB to 1.0 with the material you already have planned and then start taking suggestions for new embellishments. I know I'm not going to make any more suggestions for new material (and I've got a great one) until you guys have had a chance to get your primary workload done. I'd urge others to do the same and show some restraint in posting. The forum is getting messy, but I don't expect the EB team to have to clean it up.
    οἵη περ φύλλων γενεὴ τοίη δὲ καὶ ἀνδρῶν.
    Even as are the generations of leaves, such are the lives of men.
    Glaucus, son of Hippolochus, Illiad, 6.146



  15. #15
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Accurate city maps

    I think its a really great idea, but crush all the bugs first.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

    [IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]

  16. #16

    Default Re: Accurate city maps

    Also having a fully working and generally uber mod with a lot of historical realism might very well inspire some of the people who'd know how to make these city models.
    It's not a map.

  17. #17
    EBII Council Senior Member Kull's Avatar
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    Default The City Editor

    Here's a few interesting threads on the subject (Rome definitely wasn't built in a day):

    1) Building the Editor

    2) The City Editor

    3) Building Rome
    Last edited by Kull; 03-29-2006 at 09:12.
    "Numidia Delenda Est!"

  18. #18
    Member Member Avicenna's Avatar
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    Default Re: The City Editor

    What about Sparta? Could you limit how advanced it could be? In real life it was just four villages or perhaps five, with a few messes for the men to live in.
    Student by day, bacon-eating narwhal by night (specifically midnight)

  19. #19

    Default Re: The City Editor

    In theory, yes. In practice, as said above, we just don't have the people to do it at this point.

  20. #20
    EB Token Radical Member QwertyMIDX's Avatar
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    Default Re: Accurate city maps

    Also, Hellenistic Sparta was very different from Classical.
    History is for the future not the past. The dead don't read.


    Operam et vitam do Europae Barbarorum.

    History does not repeat itself. The historians repeat one another. - Max Beerbohm

  21. #21

    Default Re: The City Editor

    Quote Originally Posted by Kull
    Here's a few interesting threads on the subject (Rome definitely wasn't built in a day):

    1) Building the Editor

    2) The City Editor

    3) Building Rome
    His Rome keeps getting better and better.
    It's not a map.

  22. #22
    Member Member Christianus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The City Editor

    How was Sparta different in classical times? Sources? Just curious:)
    Ὦ ξεῖν', ἀγγέλλειν Λακεδαιμονίοις ὅτι τῇδε
    κείμεθα, τοῖς κείνων ῥήμασι πειθόμενοι.
    - Σιμωνίδης ὁ Κεῖος

  23. #23

    Default Re: The City Editor

    Well, Hellenistic sparta did have a pallisade around the acropolis - that's one big difference.

  24. #24
    EB Token Radical Member QwertyMIDX's Avatar
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    Default Re: Accurate city maps

    There was a pretty big wall there when the Romans went to fight Nabis.
    History is for the future not the past. The dead don't read.


    Operam et vitam do Europae Barbarorum.

    History does not repeat itself. The historians repeat one another. - Max Beerbohm

  25. #25
    Member Member Christianus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Accurate city maps

    So who writes about this of the classical authors?

    Thanky you for the info by the way:)
    Ὦ ξεῖν', ἀγγέλλειν Λακεδαιμονίοις ὅτι τῇδε
    κείμεθα, τοῖς κείνων ῥήμασι πειθόμενοι.
    - Σιμωνίδης ὁ Κεῖος

  26. #26
    EB Token Radical Member QwertyMIDX's Avatar
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    Default Re: Accurate city maps

    Both Polybius and Livy talk about Sparta under the early 2nd century tyrants, Polybius is fragmentary though so unfortunately (for its reliability) Livy has the more complete narrative.
    History is for the future not the past. The dead don't read.


    Operam et vitam do Europae Barbarorum.

    History does not repeat itself. The historians repeat one another. - Max Beerbohm

  27. #27
    Insanity perhaps is inevitable Member shifty157's Avatar
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    Default Re: Accurate city maps

    Quote Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou
    I would really love for someone to make a few yurts for us and lay out three levels of city plans for steppe factions. Space them out maybe, no city walls, that sort of thing. That would be able to be used over and over again in steppe settlements.
    Hello. Ive been looking into settlement plans recently. I would like to offer my services in this regard. I can model the new buildings that would be needed and work to create the towns. The only problem is that i would need someone else to texture the buildings. I would also require that a concept of the town be drawn for me to create from. It can be as simple as some squares on a map although new buildings that i must model would need actual drawings.

    You can PM me if you want to take me up on my offer.

    - shifty

  28. #28

    Default Re: Accurate city maps

    Quote Originally Posted by shifty157
    Hello. Ive been looking into settlement plans recently. I would like to offer my services in this regard. I can model the new buildings that would be needed and work to create the towns. The only problem is that i would need someone else to texture the buildings. I would also require that a concept of the town be drawn for me to create from. It can be as simple as some squares on a map although new buildings that i must model would need actual drawings.

    You can PM me if you want to take me up on my offer.

    - shifty
    1) If you are serious, you are a god.
    2) Look up Peter Connelly's The Ancient City and Greece and Rome at War for some city plans.

    If I can get the opportunity, I'll see if I can scan some of the maps for you. You can probably also Google some of the plans for these cities yourself, too.

    I figure you probably won't be able to do much by yourself, but I'm always keeping eyes and ears out for anyone whom I can direct to EB to help things out. Unfortunately I haven't the time or resources/talent to help out effectively without really just getting in everybody's way, but I'd like to do whatever I can, and if pointing people in certain directions and helping others find ways to do things, well, then I guess I've done a small bit in giving back to EB.

  29. #29
    EB Token Radical Member QwertyMIDX's Avatar
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    Default Re: Accurate city maps

    I have to talk to the rest of the EB team before I say anything definative, but as an individual I have to agree with Leto's comment number 1 on this.
    History is for the future not the past. The dead don't read.


    Operam et vitam do Europae Barbarorum.

    History does not repeat itself. The historians repeat one another. - Max Beerbohm

  30. #30
    Insanity perhaps is inevitable Member shifty157's Avatar
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    Default Re: Accurate city maps

    I dont my way around this stuff perfectly yet so i figured that i should start with something simple like the steppe villages and build up my skill and knowledge before looking into recreating some major city.

    The sooner you can get back to me with something to work with, the sooner i can get started.

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