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Thread: Milan

  1. #61

    Default Re: Milan

    Has anyone encountered this situation?:

    Milan VH/VH.

    It's past turn 50 and I've only been in one war so far and nobody else wants to start with me. I like to be attacked than counterattack with a vicious blow so my Reputation and Papal rating stay high.

    I control only 5 provinces but I'm swimming in money: Milan, Genoa, Florence, Bologna and Venice. And they're all Huge Cities at this point.

    I'm allied with the Pope but so is France, they keep sending spies into Genoa but they never attack.

    The Holy Roman Empire is busy with the Danes, the Polish and the Venetians.

    Speaking of Venice, since I crusaded on Venice and lopped the head off their faction, they've taken Veinna but haven't sent anything my way in a while.

    Furthermore, the Sicilians haven't done anything and I usually expect an attack from them.

    But perhaps my Reputation, Papal Favor and large idle armies are frightening to these factions.

    I'm looking to use these Broken Lancers and Heavy Infantry/Men At Arms units... I'm still at war with Milan and just took Zagreb because I was bored, I hate that settlement and always avoid it.

    Do I just continue to wait for an attack or do I teach the French of the Sicilians a lesson?

    I've got a feeling that second I enter into a war with either one of those faction, the other will look to
    capitalize... which I don't have a problem with militarily, but it will F up my Papal favor and my diplomatic relations with everyone else.

    Side note: Spain was excommunicated a while back and I thought about going to Iberia, but this was around turns 35-45 and I was sure one of my bordering countries wanted to get their hands on the best moneymaking cities on the map.

    I just thought it was very weird being Milan and nobody wanting to fight me.

    Anyways, I think I'm just going to start some sh*t with the Sicilians to get Palermo as I don't have a castle yet, and payoff the Pope to look the other way.

    So much for being a respectable, fire when fired upon type nation.

    After all, I am American, might as well start playing like it.

  2. #62

    Default Re: Milan

    Quote Originally Posted by CrusadeAgainstYourEnemies View Post
    Has anyone encountered this situation?:

    Milan VH/VH.

    It's past turn 50 and I've only been in one war so far and nobody else wants to start with me. I like to be attacked than counterattack with a vicious blow so my Reputation and Papal rating stay high.

    I control only 5 provinces but I'm swimming in money: Milan, Genoa, Florence, Bologna and Venice. And they're all Huge Cities at this point.

    I'm allied with the Pope but so is France, they keep sending spies into Genoa but they never attack.

    The Holy Roman Empire is busy with the Danes, the Polish and the Venetians.

    Speaking of Venice, since I crusaded on Venice and lopped the head off their faction, they've taken Veinna but haven't sent anything my way in a while.

    Furthermore, the Sicilians haven't done anything and I usually expect an attack from them.

    But perhaps my Reputation, Papal Favor and large idle armies are frightening to these factions.

    I'm looking to use these Broken Lancers and Heavy Infantry/Men At Arms units... I'm still at war with Milan and just took Zagreb because I was bored, I hate that settlement and always avoid it.

    Do I just continue to wait for an attack or do I teach the French of the Sicilians a lesson?

    I've got a feeling that second I enter into a war with either one of those faction, the other will look to
    capitalize... which I don't have a problem with militarily, but it will F up my Papal favor and my diplomatic relations with everyone else.

    Side note: Spain was excommunicated a while back and I thought about going to Iberia, but this was around turns 35-45 and I was sure one of my bordering countries wanted to get their hands on the best moneymaking cities on the map.

    I just thought it was very weird being Milan and nobody wanting to fight me.

    Anyways, I think I'm just going to start some sh*t with the Sicilians to get Palermo as I don't have a castle yet, and payoff the Pope to look the other way.

    So much for being a respectable, fire when fired upon type nation.

    After all, I am American, might as well start playing like it.
    The whole peace phenomenon survived a while longer, but not too long.

    I leisurely made my way to Veinna (controlled by Venice) and crushed the Venetians with a full stack of Famigla Ducale, Geneose Crossbowman, Dismounted Broken Lances and several spear militia under the Generalship of the Duke.

    I started a war with Sicily with my main army under my faction heir, the Count and was warned several times back and forth by the Pope. I backed off and the Sicilians struck at Bologna. It was a tough seige but Hand Gunners eventually saved me. Sicily was Excommunicated and my Faction Heir joined a Crusade against against Naples.

    Meanwhile the French have decided to attack. Their first attack came a turn after I attacked Sicily. They were rebuffed, rather embarassingly at Milan when I sallied. They offered a quick peace and I received Bern in exchange.

    They lost their alliance with the Pope in the process. Yet about 10 turns later, when Sicily was excommunicated and my main Italian army joined the Crusade, the French moved into Italian lands again with several 1/2 stacks and blockaded Genoa.

    Bern received a Templars guild immediately when I acquired it. They proved most valuable against the French.

    I've since sacked Naples and beat the French back yet again.

    Several interesting notes here:
    -The major powers are the French, the Danish and me in the European theatre.

    -The Danes have beaten down the Holy Roman Empire to only one province, Innsbruck.

    -The French have Northern Iberia and all the usual French provinces from Rennes to Marsaille to Antwerp.

    -The Venetians have migrated after taking it on the chin from the Milanese and the Hungarians to the former HRE territories. It's hysterical to see the Venetian capitol be Staufen with their only other holding Nuremberg.

    The Mongols have come and wiped the floor with the Turks, secured Jerusalem as their "new homeland" and are in the process of fighting the Byzantines and the Egyptians. The Byzantine Empire has fallen in the west as it is controlled by the Hungarians all the way to Constantinople.

    Gunpowder rocks. I love nothing more than Crossbowing my enemy to half strength, then sending in the melee and flanking one side with cavalry and the other with 2 groups of hand gunners. The Cannae "total victory" is fun to engineer. ***Hand Gunner those Generals Bodyguard - Devastating***



    ==+++===+++ This is by far the most fun I've had with a faction. The Milanese have exactly what I look for: coastal cash cities, proximity to central Europe for maximum strategical importance and difficulty (fun), great militia units and the ability to train most of their top teir troops at a city rather than a Castle.

  3. #63
    One easily trifled with Member Target Champion Motep's Avatar
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    Default Re: Milan

    My military is dine up mostly in cities, though I get the occasional castle to boost up my military might. I start by allying with HRE, Venice, Sicily, and Pope (if I can. They usally do right off the abt for map info and small tribute), taking Florence. Then I take the islands to the west. I chill for a few turns, building my might. Then I steamroll venice untill the pope says stop, then I leave them be, for by that time, they are pushed to 1-3 places. (I bypass armies on the road, and deal with them once in the town...I am good with sieges). Then I build up till the first crusade, and then I strike the holy land with alot I got, I set up a good base there. Then I strike Sicliy and finish Venice. Just go on from there, watch out for the timurds, they are mean.
    TosaInu shall never be forgotten.

  4. #64
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Milan

    Enjoying a Milan VH/M at the moment.

    I agree with the sentiments about their forces mix. Castles for the Milanese are a nice addition, but not a necessity. The only real value they have is providing good offensive cavalry in the early game and those lovely Crossbowmen. Remember to set up a lot of merchant guilds relatively early on as they provide MilCav. MilCav is a weak offensive unit, but a very nice defensive counterpuncher in sieges.

    I bought the HRE out of Italy on turn one, then allied with my neighbors while grabbing Ajaccio and Cagliari. Cagliari was towned immediately, with Ajaccio going the same way after I'd produced cavalry for a few turns. I then defended Bologna against the Sicilians and Milan against the Venetians for a long while, taking Venice away from Venice after butchering a few stacks on my walls. Venice would threaten Venice from time to time, but never could build an army capable of taking it. Sent one army to the Holy Lands by boat on the first crusade, ending up with Acre and Jerusalem quickly and Gaza after a few turns delay. Later on I Took Damascus, Aleppo, and Antioch for cash, giving them to the Holy Father one at time. This led to the second crusade -- Palermo -- and the removal of my other Italian enemy.

    At the time, Milan and Genoa were undergoing frequent siege by the French. All of these sieges were hard fought, but cavmil reinforcements next to the cities as the siege assault began gave me the edge to win all of those fights. France killed so many frenchment trying that the English rolled them up from behind to the point where the Frenchies only hold Angers and Marseilles! To add to the fun, the Scots then rolled the English out of England entirely! In the East, the Mongols (Northern track this game) slowly stamped "paid" on Russia and on Poland, but stumbled turning South and never really took out the Byzantines. Latterly, I stamped out Egypt while letting the Pope faff with Turkey and Byzantium -- though I did take Byzantium on the 3rd Crusade and have been back filling toward Venice, removing the Venetians from the continent.

    4th Crusade is Tunis (done), though I'm wondering if the Spanish (already up to Algiers) will try to take it from me....
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  5. #65
    One easily trifled with Member Target Champion Motep's Avatar
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    Default Re: Milan

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post

    At the time, Milan and Genoa were undergoing frequent siege by the French. All of these sieges were hard fought, but cavmil reinforcements next to the cities as the siege assault began gave me the edge to win all of those fights. France killed so many frenchment trying that the English rolled them up from behind to the point where the Frenchies only hold Angers and Marseilles! To add to the fun, the Scots then rolled the English out of England entirely! In the East, the Mongols (Northern track this game) slowly stamped "paid" on Russia and on Poland, but stumbled turning South and never really took out the Byzantines. Latterly, I stamped out Egypt while letting the Pope faff with Turkey and Byzantium -- though I did take Byzantium on the 3rd Crusade and have been back filling toward Venice, removing the Venetians from the continent.
    Is why you dont strike the french (unless you really want to)...the English will usually take them for you if you let them wash over your walls. Is always good to have the English completely in France, where they are still easily beaten. To help this, I ally with the Scots, and reinforce with cash from time to time.

    As for your Mid-east strategy, it is a good one. Leave the pope to deal with the north heathens, you take the south...then the north...then the pope!
    TosaInu shall never be forgotten.

  6. #66
    Warrior on the edge of time Member kitbogha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Milan

    I have decided to play as Milan to see if there was an alternative to their "sneaky, backstabbing, cheating, lying" approach as played by the AI.
    There is: I am at turn 61 and am the proud Lord of 18 provinces, acquired through firm but fair means. So far my rules have been simple-
    1) Only attack those who attack me...
    2) Unless they are Muslims or Rebels which I believe would have made me a crazy Liberal in the Medieval world (if indeed such a concept had existed then).
    In doing so I have only attacked the Muslims twice, firstly the Moors to get Algiers, which I needed as a toehold in North Africa and I then agreed a ceasefire which I have since stuck to. Secondly on the express orders of the Pope I crusaded against Antioch.
    I have allied with all and sundry and stuck to my alliances so far. The Venetians broke our alliance early on and I have righteously pursued and harassed them until their faction is on the brink of extinction and intend to destroy them in thenext few moves with my army moving north from Ragusa towards their last stronghold in Vienna.
    My economy is pretty healthy and my lands are happy. I have six Cardinals in the college of Cardinals and have seen two of the last three Popes come from my faction. However as the endgame approaches things do tend to get more complicated and snaekiness and political expediency begin to be less avoidable but I will try to stick to my principles, Machiavelli will be turning in his grave.....
    "I like a man who grins when he fights"
    Winston Churchill.
    "It is not sufficient that I suceed - all others must fail.”
    Genghis Khan

  7. #67
    One easily trifled with Member Target Champion Motep's Avatar
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    Default Re: Milan

    Quote Originally Posted by kitbogha View Post
    Machiavelli will be turning in his grave.....

    Quite right. Good luck with that, sticking clean gets hard to do with Milan, especially when you are attacked by several of your "allies" at once. makes assasins and other means much more viable to you.

    (note, I just won a game without having to attack any factions at all! I just assasinated all of the family members with a small army army of assasins, and dealt with the rebels that were left behind. Not exacty clean, but the pope wasnt angry untill he was dead as well. Take that, pope...making a venician cardinal pope, how dare you!)
    TosaInu shall never be forgotten.

  8. #68
    Warrior on the edge of time Member kitbogha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Milan

    Nice idea, Motep.
    Now at turn 120 and 30 provinces in the bag, but the waters are muddier. At war with France, Hungary, Sicily and the Mongols so my higher ideals are being strained. I think your assassins plan is looking more expedient than ever.
    The Mongol front has stretched me financially but I think I have finally overcome them (at the expense of around six large armies and endless battles). Gunpowder has finally been invented and that should help. I have large armies heading for Paris and Corinth(?) and am teching Vienna and Budapest up for a push to destroy the Hungarians.
    Just as I am getting things in hand the Poles are beginning to get pushy (irritating demands for money and a couple of agents sent into Vienna). I still haven't attacked any allies as yet and will have to content myself with that for the moment.
    "I like a man who grins when he fights"
    Winston Churchill.
    "It is not sufficient that I suceed - all others must fail.”
    Genghis Khan

  9. #69
    One easily trifled with Member Target Champion Motep's Avatar
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    Default Re: Milan

    Quote Originally Posted by kitbogha View Post
    Nice idea, Motep.
    Now at turn 120 and 30 provinces in the bag, but the waters are muddier. At war with France, Hungary, Sicily and the Mongols so my higher ideals are being strained. I think your assassins plan is looking more expedient than ever.
    The Mongol front has stretched me financially but I think I have finally overcome them (at the expense of around six large armies and endless battles). Gunpowder has finally been invented and that should help. I have large armies heading for Paris and Corinth(?) and am teching Vienna and Budapest up for a push to destroy the Hungarians.
    Just as I am getting things in hand the Poles are beginning to get pushy (irritating demands for money and a couple of agents sent into Vienna). I still haven't attacked any allies as yet and will have to content myself with that for the moment.

    Thats the problem with playing Milan...

    Nobody likes you

    Good luck with the poles and the Mongols, thay can get very annoying at times.
    Last edited by Motep; 08-20-2008 at 02:19.
    TosaInu shall never be forgotten.

  10. #70
    Warrior on the edge of time Member kitbogha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Milan

    Thanks Motep,
    The Mongols in particular are tenacious little £$%^ers. Have only added one province in last ten turns. I took Rhiems and Paris but overreached a little and the French retook Rhiems. Also lost an army in a narrow defeat to two Hungarian stacks after a seige. The black death has wreaked it's usual havoc with things but I feel the stage is set for the endgame. I think I will consolidate against France and set to with Spain-who I am already at war with, thereby not compromising my principles- (handy for my North African powerbase) and the Hungarians (they've riled me up now!) before crowning the victory with an assault against Constantinople (now in the hands of the Poles).
    That's the plan anyway. It's a shame that America is pretty much an irrelevance in this game due to the time and effort needed to exploit it. A much shorter journey would have made things more interesting.

    Overnight update- turn 151, 35 provinces and armies marching on Lisbon and Constantinople. The Mongols really are tricky customers. Thought I'd seen the back of them but they slowly re-emerged and are causing me bother again, retaking Adana and besieging Antioch. I am in two minds whether to just abandon these mid east provinces until later. They are just a big money drain. I can easily make up the magic victory number by going after Spain, Portugal, Poland and Hungary who have all had the temerity to start wars against me.
    Last edited by kitbogha; 08-21-2008 at 15:33.
    "I like a man who grins when he fights"
    Winston Churchill.
    "It is not sufficient that I suceed - all others must fail.”
    Genghis Khan

  11. #71
    One easily trifled with Member Target Champion Motep's Avatar
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    Default Re: Milan

    Quote Originally Posted by kitbogha View Post
    Thanks Motep,
    The Mongols in particular are tenacious little £$%^ers. Have only added one province in last ten turns. I took Rhiems and Paris but overreached a little and the French retook Rhiems. Also lost an army in a narrow defeat to two Hungarian stacks after a seige. The black death has wreaked it's usual havoc with things but I feel the stage is set for the endgame. I think I will consolidate against France and set to with Spain-who I am already at war with, thereby not compromising my principles- (handy for my North African powerbase) and the Hungarians (they've riled me up now!) before crowning the victory with an assault against Constantinople (now in the hands of the Poles).
    That's the plan anyway. It's a shame that America is pretty much an irrelevance in this game due to the time and effort needed to exploit it. A much shorter journey would have made things more interesting.

    Overnight update- turn 151, 35 provinces and armies marching on Lisbon and Constantinople. The Mongols really are tricky customers. Thought I'd seen the back of them but they slowly re-emerged and are causing me bother again, retaking Adana and besieging Antioch. I am in two minds whether to just abandon these mid east provinces until later. They are just a big money drain. I can easily make up the magic victory number by going after Spain, Portugal, Poland and Hungary who have all had the temerity to start wars against me.


    And yes, I would give the mongols a couple cities for now. Their crack troops will be dispersed amongst crap troops once they start producing. makes conquest that much easier, battle for battle, anyways.

    To add another note, my games have never lasted long enough for america to show up...
    TosaInu shall never be forgotten.

  12. #72
    Warrior on the edge of time Member kitbogha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Milan

    Turn 171, 43 provinces and closing in on the last two, should finish on Antioch (as a crusade-a nice crash bang wallop of a finale).
    Motep,
    To paraphrase Killgore in Apocalypse Now-it's nice to finish operations early- but if you play a more gradual game you get access to the full range of technology, troops etc. Besides, I'm so anally retentive I like to take the whole map....
    "I like a man who grins when he fights"
    Winston Churchill.
    "It is not sufficient that I suceed - all others must fail.”
    Genghis Khan

  13. #73
    One easily trifled with Member Target Champion Motep's Avatar
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    Default Re: Milan

    Quote Originally Posted by kitbogha View Post
    Turn 171, 43 provinces and closing in on the last two, should finish on Antioch (as a crusade-a nice crash bang wallop of a finale).
    Motep,
    To paraphrase Killgore in Apocalypse Now-it's nice to finish operations early- but if you play a more gradual game you get access to the full range of technology, troops etc. Besides, I'm so anally retentive I like to take the whole map....

    But a blitz is sooo much fun! Though the slow and steady is ore stable, with less risk. Anyways, could you send me a couple screens of your campaign?
    TosaInu shall never be forgotten.

  14. #74
    Warrior on the edge of time Member kitbogha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Milan

    Sure, how do I do this? General, yes. Competent on computers, no.
    "I like a man who grins when he fights"
    Winston Churchill.
    "It is not sufficient that I suceed - all others must fail.”
    Genghis Khan

  15. #75
    One easily trifled with Member Target Champion Motep's Avatar
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    Default Re: Milan

    the prt scrn button. You might have to combine it with shift, I think...
    TosaInu shall never be forgotten.

  16. #76
    Warrior on the edge of time Member kitbogha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Milan

    Quote Originally Posted by Motep View Post
    the prt scrn button. You might have to combine it with shift, I think...
    Hmm...possible prob. The PC I use to play on has no modem. The PC I use to go on this website is my work one. I will try to copy some shots onto disc from PC 1 and get them onto site via PC 2. PC 2 might not let me (the NHS is a bit narky about appropriate use etc) Bear with me....
    PS finally completed on turn 176. 45 Provinces are now a delightful green...
    "I like a man who grins when he fights"
    Winston Churchill.
    "It is not sufficient that I suceed - all others must fail.”
    Genghis Khan

  17. #77
    One easily trifled with Member Target Champion Motep's Avatar
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    Default Re: Milan

    Quote Originally Posted by kitbogha View Post
    Hmm...possible prob. The PC I use to play on has no modem. The PC I use to go on this website is my work one. I will try to copy some shots onto disc from PC 1 and get them onto site via PC 2. PC 2 might not let me (the NHS is a bit narky about appropriate use etc) Bear with me....
    PS finally completed on turn 176. 45 Provinces are now a delightful green...
    TosaInu shall never be forgotten.

  18. #78
    Member Member Daan O's Avatar
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    Default Re: Milan

    Turn 50 now, and I'm going strong. Playing on VH/H

    I Posses Bern, Dijon, Venice, Milan, Genua, Florence and Ajaccio in Europe, and Iraklion, Rhodes and Cyprus in the seas.
    Somewhere around turn twenty, th Byzantines popped up with a friggin' huge army near Florence. i demolished them, with only a meagre town garrison, but the kept on spamming. I also was got in war with Venice, and from time to time with Sicily. So, when he pope called a Crusade, I used it to strand down on Crete, and take iraklion, and form there, Rodes and Cyprus.
    The French are my closest ally, we also have military acces they help me against venice, I help them against the Scots. It's important to keep them as a friend, since my continental arm isn't the greatest: the Germans could run me down easily if I was on my own.
    Right now, I'm sieging Antioch, which is the target of the 2nd Crusade. Even on Vh/H, Milan is still one of the easiest factions to play.
    You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you. ~ Leon Trotsky

  19. #79

    Default Re: Milan

    I wonder if it's just me.
    Anyone else go crazy with forts when playing an Italian faction?

    I get really annoyed when factions cruise into Italy demanding my land and women At least a fort in each pass makes the brutes "knock" before entering
    Ja-mata TosaInu

  20. #80
    Warrior on the edge of time Member kitbogha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Milan

    Quote Originally Posted by Motep View Post
    No, doesn't want to play the game. I have a mate who does comp support. I'll ask him his opinion next time he's round.
    "I like a man who grins when he fights"
    Winston Churchill.
    "It is not sufficient that I suceed - all others must fail.”
    Genghis Khan

  21. #81
    One easily trifled with Member Target Champion Motep's Avatar
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    Default Re: Milan

    Quote Originally Posted by kitbogha View Post
    No, doesn't want to play the game. I have a mate who does comp support. I'll ask him his opinion next time he's round.

    The evil was for Milan owning much land. Always a wonderful sight!
    TosaInu shall never be forgotten.

  22. #82

    Default Re: Milan

    My Milan game was pretty standard as well, I took the two islands and Florence first, followed by Venice and Bologna. Just these seven are enough to make you pretty much invincible. I rarely expand northward or into France as I find continental Europe to provide far less income than Italy.

    Right now I could attack Sicily, finish off the Venetians, or land in North Africa. My cardinals are being generated in Greece, but North Africa wouldn't be a bad place to make more.

    I do have a question about Iraklion (the Venetian town on the island of Crete, south of the Byzantines); is it worth anything really? I remember in RTW it would always be one of the first cities I took for the amazing Cretan archers and the massive income from purple dye trade in the Aegean once I got it to port status. But now it doesn't have any such important trade item and my only use for it so far has been to build up and train my navy. Does it become a rich merchant city when you take Greece and Asia Minor? Or is the naval outpost its only use?

  23. #83

    Default Re: Milan

    Installed the Stainless Steel mod, and I've got to say I really enjoy it. But the reason I'm posting about this is because I've found a great start for Milan.

    In the first few turns, I took Florence, bought Bologna from the HRE for 2 payments of 2,000, an alliance, trade rights and map information. Nothing revolutionary here...

    Then surprisingly enough, I was able to buy Marsaille from France for about two payments of 4,000.

    Then I took the Count (faction heir), fresh off his taking of Florence, and marched him up to Lyons, reinforcing him with spear militias from every city he passed. I took Lyons after two turns of seige.

    The great part about this, and it surprised me that I was able to do it, was that by 1102, Milan was an actual country without going to war with anyone.

    I allied with England and Sicily (and remained allies with the HRE), got trade rights with everyone and was able to build/tech for my eventual war with Venice. This strategy of buying Bologna and Marseille, taking Florence, then going after Lyons made it possible for me to establish a real homeland base of operations.

    Think about it, from the start you have 3 cash cow coastal cities in Marsaille, Genoa, Florence. Bologna and Milan are my military/inland strongholds where I place extra emphasis on teching up the town hall/militia buildings instead of economic buildings. Lyon is my early game cavalry factory and a good base of operations for any eventual war with France.

    I'm still at the start of my game and I just took Ajacco and crusaded to Tunis to get my second faction heir, Bernardo's son, some real good traits as he will eventually be king. I gifted Tunis to the Pope as I did not want to provoke Sicily or the Moors until I've destroyed Venice.

    This was done on the Stainless Steel mod, but perhaps you should try to buy Marseille in the regular game too.

    Good luck, hope this helped.

  24. #84

    Default Re: Milan

    I'm currently playing a milan campaign, and it's getting tough, anyother nation with ships in the med is a treacherous wretch.

    At the start I planned on having Milan as main training centre and genoa as the economical settlement, whil going for both corsica and sardinia and then Florence. Then I turtled, build an economy, a good fleet and a nice army of crossbowmen and spear militia. then I played the waiting game, either for venice to attack me, or sicily to attack the HRE.

    Sicily attacked me instead at Sardinia. It was nought but a skirmish at the gates of Cagliari, and some naval battles, snuck a spy into Pamplona and captured it. The pope then ordered a peace.

    Then Venice attacked, got it's men slaughtered at Milan and lost it's capital in the next turn... after which the nobles asked me to take still-rebel Zagreb. piece-a-cake. The next 2 years, the pope allowed me to take Naples (sicily) and Ragusa... and then the HRE started blockading ports. As a result, I took Bologna from them. the two factions then sued for peace... the sicilians never bothered me again

    The waters of the med never knew peace again. the HRE and Venice kept targetting my ports

    I crusaded on Caesarea to get a base in asia minor to later attack my family-in-law the Byzantines, probably near the end of the campaign, there'd be mongols and more crusades first. besides, the Portugese were getting a bit cheeky, blocking ports and targetting Ajaccio as an alternative ehm target for their crusading army. Their little fleet was sunk and the army, a good 20 companies of spear, horse and swordsmen drowned.

    as the HRE kept annoying me I first took Innsbruck from them, again they begged me to have mercy on their beer swilling, sausage-eating souls... and promptly blocked my ports again... and got excommed, losing Nuremberg and Vienna to the crusading armies of the duke of milan, king of naples and the two sicilies.

    Nuremberg went to el papa, to up my favor... as did Ragusa, turned into a town and being troublesome and rebelious (and to get the pope into conflict on the balkans.)

    The French and Portugese then got snotty, got excommunicated and lost Metz, Zaragoza, Pamplona and Valencia, while the egyptians were relieved of Iconium and Adana. Iconium I gave to the pope so he could screen my asian holdings from Venice who had taken Smyrna...
    Gave Pamplona to the spanish so they could link their kingdom (also held bordeaux and angers, lost Leon) and to improve relations

    and then the mongols came... I massacred three of their stacks at the antioch bridge, but then retreated. they besieged adana for two turns and retreated when the pope called a crusade on their new capital antioch... that's were I'm now. at war with egypt, the mongols, france and portugal. And the HRE has finally lost all it's mediteranean fleets and a great host of family members and milanes legions are on the march to Antioch. If I can stop the mongols now and get a stable middle-eastern colony, the future will look bright indeed.

  25. #85
    Upstanding Member rvg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Milan

    Once the gunpowder becomes available, Milan is capable of fielding the most cost effective armies compared to any other faction. My typical Milanese army ca 3120 or so (ver 1.2, VH/VH, large unit size, 1ypt):

    2 Culverins. Indispensable for sieges and good for softening up the enemy in field battles. Generally, will kill anywhere between 10% and 15% before running out of ammo, provided that the enemy is not advancing.

    7 Pike Militia. To provide frontage and stop the enemy charges. These guys will be the one doing most of the dying so that the better units do not have to.

    6 Musketeers. The main killers. The rest of the army is built around protecting and supporting these guys.

    2 Dismounted Broken Lances. In case if things get down to serious melee combat, these guys will provide the muscle.

    2 Famiglia Ducale. A very fine unit of heavy cavalry, used in the typical heavy cavalry fashion.

    1 General.


    This kind of army is optimal for both field battles and for taking cities.

    In the field: Pikes form a thin (yes, thin, 3-man deep) bow-shaped frontline. No defensive mode. Spearwall ON. DBLs along with Famiglia Ducale sit on the flanks behind the pikes, general is in the back near Artillery. Musketeers are in the center, in front of the pikes in 3-man deep formation with Skirmish and Fire at Will enabled.

    The battle: if the enemy is not advancing then they have already lost the battle. Pound them with the artillery first, until the culverins have exhausted all their ammo, concentrating primarily on the enemy artillery. If the enemy have no artillery, just aim for the centermost unit in their formation. Afterwards, advance your entire formation within the range of the musketeers. Wait until the enemy is dead or routing. Victory.

    Usually however, the enemy *will* advance, making the battle quite different. Still, begin with the artillery by setting them to Fire at Will. Let the culverins take a few potshots until the first enemy units get within the range of your muskets. Now it's time to stop the artillery. Musketeers will have time to fire a few shots before the enemy closes in. They'll skirmish out of harm's way on their own, so there's no need to micromanage them. Instead, select your pikes. Remember, you left the pikes with defensive mode off. Keep the defensive mode off until 3-4 seconds before the enemy closes in, then let the pikes quickly toggle the defensive mode. The enemy charge stops cold. Yes, pikes are bugged, but they still beautifully stop any charge, be it from infantry or cavalry. If the enemy hit you with mostly heavy horse, then you basically do nothing and let them impale themselves on your spearwall until they are all dead. If you got hit with infantry, then you must act very quickly, since pikes do not do well at all vs swordsmen.
    This is where Dism. Broken Lances and Famiglia Ducale come into play: hit the enemy infantry with Broken Lances in the flanks, while the famiglia DUcale rides out, reforms and hits the enemy straight in the back. This is usually enough to get them to rout. Once the rout began, I normally do not give chase. Instead, I bring the musketeers back from behind the spearwall and shoot the routing enemy to bits. Once again, Victory.

    Taking cities is generally not a problem either, since when faced with artillery the enemy always abandons the walls and moves all its forces to the center. It will *keep* its forces there until the gates have been breached. This give you enough time to flood the gate area with Pikes and put your musketeers on the walls. Once the enemy come back for a counterattack, they will be met with the sea of pikes in the streets (deep pikes are nothing to sneer at) and a hail of lead coming from the walls. Repeat until the enemy is no longer counterattacking (which usually means that 90% of enemy soldiers are dead).

    Conclusion:

    Milan really has it good. All its units come from cities, they are easy to replace and reasonable in maintenance. I find having to mix Castle and City units to be a logistical nightmare which Milan can easily avoid. This type of army is not without its weaknesses of course. Taking Castles defended by 10+ units of heavy infantry will be difficult. In the field, this kind of army will have trouble against a force of 20 heavy horse archers (like Vardariotai), but overall it works very well. A word of warning though, this army does terrribly in autocalc, because the A.I. does not value city units anywhere near as high as castle units. As a sideffect of that, the A.I. will often charge my 1600 man army with a force of 900-1000 castle units fully expecting to win and ending up in a crushing defeat. Overall, this strategy of course is not restricted to Milan, but imho Milan does it better than anyone else.
    Last edited by rvg; 03-17-2009 at 20:20.
    "And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman

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  26. #86
    War Story Recorder Senior Member Maltz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Milan

    Here are my starting moves on VH/VH. By turn 17 I have 10 regions and a good outlook for conquest.

    Alliance: Ally with Venice, HRE, then the Pope - pretty much the standard "ally with everyone" to sell alliance, trade rights, and maps. I skipped Scotland, Poland, Turks, Moors, Egypt and Portugal to avoid having to cancel alliance later.

    Conquest order:

    (1) Take Fluorence, then the two islands. (army 1)
    (2) Assassinate 2 Sicily family members. Take southern Italy. (army 1)
    (3a) Assassinate Pope to get high Pope rating from election. Call crusade on Tunis. Start counter-attacking Moors. (army 1)
    (3b) Assassinate 4 Venice family members. Take Venice (army 2).
    (4) Assassinate 3 HRE family members. Take Bologna. (army 2)

    Italy united! (except Rome, of course)
    Reputation: Reliable
    Overall ranking: 1st
    Military ranking: 1st

    I was invaded twice:

    At turn 4 or so, Sicily tried to invade me with 8 units. I blocked its advance with my ships first, then trapped their ship in between the two islands when it was foolish enough to end its turn there. No more threat!

    At turn 7 or so, Moors was ready to invade me from the sea. Sunk their troop-carrying ships. After losing the castle along Northern Africa, Moors then allied with my ally France to force a truce. When I attack Moors again, France broke our alliance - we know who is coming down next with Moors!

    Milan's strength:
    (1) Controls the Pope (by assassination). I called crusade on Turn 9 (and made it on Turn 11).
    (2) Very good family members with maturing sons.
    (3) Very cheap and useful spear militia (almost as good as merc spearmen). Along with Merc crossbowmen and mailed knights from islands, initial conquests were very easy.

  27. #87

    Default Re: Milan

    Once the gunpowder becomes available, Milan is capable of fielding the most cost effective armies compared to any other faction
    .

    I've had a gunpowder army also work well with the russians ,although I had to resort to hiring Landsknecht pikemen,as my vanilla pikemen weren't doing so well. I also added a few merc german knights,and when my mortal enemy Poland decided to mass-calvary rush me,the calv that actually survived the hail of lead,routed extremely quicky when they hit my wall of pikes at a gallop.

  28. #88

    Default Re: Milan

    Playing Milan is so easy, it's almost boring :)

    I never made a castle in my Milan campaign. The only ones i have are in Africa, as large lands require cavalry armies that move faster then foot ones.

    In Europe i have 100% cities with some of them concentrated on unit production.

    You don't even need castles for cavalry. Italian cavalry militia with upgraded armour is all you need in the early years. Then you get Broken Lances and Familia Ducale.
    The spear militia is great and the crossbow units even better, after gunpowder you get musketters.

  29. #89
    Member Member Iberia Auxilia's Avatar
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    Default Re: Milan

    I saw some arguments about castles and cities for Italian militia and castle combat units. For me I prefer to have at least one castle on the land. I usually convert Florence into a castle and it makes you feel secure by having a castle near your capital. And you can easily handle any invasions from both HRE and Hungary or other eastern factions. And dismounted feudal knights should not be underestimated. They have very good morale, good stamina, and can hold the line as second line troops. I usually use Armored sergeants as screening troops for absorbing cavalry charges and preventing the devastating charges into dis. feudal knights. Man at arms, should be used as cheap troops when you lose one battle after another and you are relatively poor. I like dis. feudal knights more. If you got Tunis, you are likely to get Knights Hospitallers too. Don't underestimate order knights. And swordsmen guild are available only to castles with them you can equip your militia units with better spears and swords. For Famiglia Ducale and Broken lances, they should be used aganist swordsmen. And feudal knights should be used against archers and xbows as they have Shield armour and are better than shield bearing man-at-arms. Milan have its G crossbow militia and G xbow as unique units. They don't have any better units than normal medieval units like feudal knights in castles. But these castle armies will hold your lines when you are outnumbered even 2: 5. I won a heroic victory using my feudal army which have besiege Meskersh ( a city in north africa, I know a wrong spelling) and have won another victory against Spanish invading force and again won 2 full stack Spanish army with 2: 5 odds!!! In conclusion, don't underestimate the Feudal armies and City/ Castle mutuality is still needed for Milan.

  30. #90

    Default Re: Milan

    Im well into my campaign as Milan now H/VH (some 100 turns or so) and my general advice would be the following:

    1) Be aggressive from the start. Purchase Bologna from HRE, take Florence and attack Venice (usually you'll find for some reason they move their army out of Venice and leave you with easy pickings). Then get men on boats and take the two island provinces of Ajaccio and Cagliari to the west.

    2) My next step was to build up my towns and to build up my defences. Because of Milan's position they can be a very good defensive faction, I set up forts at each choke point into my empire in the mountains to the north of Milan.

    3) Get 5 or 6 diplomats on the go, send them out to every faction on the map asking for trade rights, I asked for alliances with Poland, Denmark, Spain, Russia & Portugal.

    4) At some point Sicily will probably attack you, when the do, go on the offensive and capture Naples and Palermo. Youll probably find that they have taken Tunis & Tripoli to the South. Once you have taken these, take an army to the bottom left of the map and take Timbuktu, this province has 5 or 6 very rich trading materials.

    5) I then set off east and took out Venice along the coast from Zagreb and all the way down to Corinth which was owned by the Byzantines. I also took the two island provinces of Iraklion & Rhodes before pushing north and taking Thessalonica & eventually Constatinople. By this point the world is your oyster. You can either push north towards Hungary, east to the Byzantines and The Turks or head West to France.

    6) Concentrate on upgrading your towns, especially the towns near Milan as Venice, Genoa etc are excellent cities for making money, im easily making 30,000 florins per turn.

    7) In terms of strategy for the battlefield. Milan are an excellent force in general. The one unit you will want are Genoese Crossbowmen, make sure you have these guys in every single one of your armies. Along with Spearmen, Men at arms and Feudal Knights and horses flanking this faction really does take some beating.

    FORZA MILAN!!!

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