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Thread: The Netherlands

  1. #31

    Default Re: The Netherlands

    The Stewart of Holland, generally speaking was also the Stewart of Gelre, Utrecht, Zeeland, Overijssel, and he was a direct male successor to Willem the Silent. Friesland and Groningen had a different Stewart, and to be correct those Stewarts form the 'Frisian line' within the van Oranje Nassau family and are the line which 'produces' the today's kings and queens of the Netherlands.
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  2. #32

    Default Re: The Netherlands

    Dragnipura, while your suggestions are pretty good, I think you are forcing the player to much to recreate a historical scenario, I think you should allow the player much more imput.

    For starters, I would name the faction "Republic of the United Netherlands(/Provinces)", not "Republic of the Seven Provinces". Why? Because the player isn't forced to stay in the area historical under control of the Republic, a player, for example, could conquer the Southern Netherlands, or lose part of the Republican lands, either way, the republic wouldn't consist of 7 provinces anymore, so the term Republic of the Seven Provinces would be inacurate, while the term Republic of the United Netherlands would remain accurate, no matter how many territories you'd win or loose.

    The faction leader at the start of the game should be without a doubt William the Silent, and I would combine the position of faction leader with that of stadhouder van Holland & Zeeland, why? Because he was in de facto control of the republic. However, I wouldn't name the position of faction leader 'prince' or automaticly name them of Orange, because then again you would be forcing the player to play certain scenario, instead of giving him options. Besides, it wouldn't be very accurate to automaticly make the Oranje-Nassau the factionleader and it would serverly oversimplefy the reality of politcal life in the Republic.

    The game automaticly assigns the position of faction heir to the most influention family member, thus giving members of the Oranje-Nassau family a influence boost to start with makes it more likely that they will be assigned the position of faction heir, but it wouldn't be forced.

    As for the provinces, it are going to be 3-4, not 2 right? And even then Middelburg wouldn't be my second choice. For gameplay reasons alone it would be better to spread it out, but even if that wasn't the case, I'd rather include other cities. I don't feel like going into much detail right now, but personally, I wouldn't include it.

  3. #33
    aka AggonyAdherbal Member Lord Adherbal's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Netherlands

    Ghemeijn ruyteren = ruyteren should be Ruiters, dunno what the first word is supposed to be tho
    I wouldn't be so sure about that, modern day dutch is not the same as old dutch. Hence the dutch name "de Ruyter".
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  4. #34
    One of the Undutchables Member The Stranger's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Netherlands

    naval retinues

    admiral Jan Tromp (command bonus)
    Piet Heijn (command bonus)
    admiral De Ruijter (command bonus)
    Brothers De Wit (command bonus)

    We do not sow.

  5. #35

    Default Re: The Netherlands

    I'd rather have the admirals as admirals in game, instead of as retinue...
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    ὁ δ᾽ ἠλίθιος ὣσπερ πρόβατον βῆ βῆ λέγων βαδίζει” – Kratinos in Dionysalexandros.

  6. #36
    One of the Undutchables Member The Stranger's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Netherlands

    hmmm... can... they can also be a retinue to a fleet... i don't know how hard it is to get a admiral to spawn in the time period you want him to...

    I've got a book about the VOC... i'll check it... post t\found things later...

    We do not sow.

  7. #37
    Speaker of Truth Senior Member Moros's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Netherlands

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Adherbal
    I wouldn't be so sure about that, modern day dutch is not the same as old dutch. Hence the dutch name "de Ruyter".
    Was there a uniform spelling in the Netherlands at that time?

    Edit: what is the starting time anyway?

    Also about names, only those of true historical persons, or do other names from that time also qualify?
    Btw: I'm pleased to see that ethnicities are also be included just as in EB.

    Edit2: if certain information is wanted I can also have a look if I can find anything usefull. However I'm not a historian or something.
    Last edited by Moros; 12-29-2006 at 21:42.

  8. #38
    Speaker of Truth Senior Member Moros's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Netherlands

    Quote Originally Posted by Stig
    Aye, The Republic used loads of mercs.

    Anyway you might want to work on the names of the units as it isn't the Dutch I speak (well for some)

    Gheappoicteerde curassiers = dunno what you mean by the first word, Kurassiers
    is the more correct tho, both can be used afaik, but we Dutch prefer the K
    Hmmm I'm not sure wether a k or a c would be used I don't think there was an actual spelling at this time. I know that before, the spelling and language relied on the place you were from and who had learned you to write. It may be that by this time there was an official spelling, but I don't think so. However for one reason or another I think a c looks more appropriate.
    Ghemeijn ruyteren = ruyteren should be Ruiters, dunno what the first word is supposed to be tho
    i
    Well Ruyteren can be correct. It was quite common to use the "uy". Medieval texts would have an uy. Not sure about this era, tough I think uy would be most probable. Ghemeijn probably comes form "gemeen" (not in the sense of evil,...) but from the sense of gemeenbest. Spelling could be right and could not be right.
    Piekeniers met rondas = Rondas will be the shields, never heard of them, so I think they are named correctly
    Well this is most certainly correct.
    Piekeniers = correct
    Correct.
    Watergeuzen = correct
    Correct modernspelling and I also believe it would have been back then.
    Musketiers = correct
    I guess it's correct.
    Garde te voet van zijne Majesteit = This means Footguards of His Majesty. Since The Republic didn't have a "majesty" the name might be dubious. After 1640 the Stadhouders began to see themselves as kings, before that they were normally elected by the Parlaiment
    Well, I can't recall there to be a king. So I guess it's wrong. If there was one the name should be correct, tough I don't really like it. You might want to change "van zijne" to "des". But the last part is okay, just don't like the first part. It's more a description than a name.
    Regiment de Marine = I would call them Mariniers
    Agree.
    Fuisilliers = Fusilliers is the correct word[/QUOTE]
    Fuisilliers is the correct term used now, no idea how they were called back then.

  9. #39
    Speaker of Truth Senior Member Moros's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Netherlands

    Quote Originally Posted by dragnipura
    LS,

    I'm dutch myself, and although most of the reactions are quite good and accurate, I think it goes to deep for the game. The input must be limited.

    Start date:

    1572

    Although the 80year war started in 1568 (Battle at Oosterlee (modern day "Heiligerlee")), the uprising officially started in 1572.

    Faction Name:

    The official name: "Republic of the Seven Provinces", thought historical correct, may be quite a mouthful. But it is often refered to as the "Seven Provinces". The latter seems more suitable for the game.
    Well Republic of the United Netherlands seems better to me, tough. The player might expand, no? Are faction names going to be English or native?
    Faction Leader:

    Very difficult. The 7 provinces was a federation officially ruled by the State-General under rule of a Grand-Pensionary and unofficially by a collective of Stadhouders (Stewarts) and the Heeren XVII (board of directors) of the VOC (East India Company).

    But if you have to choose a leader, the Stewart of Holland was always the most powerful stewart of the 7 provinces, because Holland almost generated two-third of the annual income. Besides that, the VOC Chamber in Amsterdam
    was as well the most powerful of all the Chambers. And notably, since 1585 most of the time the Stewart of Holland was a member of the Nassau-family (Nassau is a small duch in Germany (borderarea Hessen-Reinland Pfalz), our later royal family (even till today). Of course in that time (pre-royal time) the Nassaus were of noble blood, the family-leader holding the title "Prince of Orange (a small french principality, in Dutch called "Oranje")
    hmmm yes. There wasn't a real faction leader.
    And in the later period, the Orange-heir controled all the steward-offices.

    To summarize: Most of the time the Prince of Orange was the most powerful man of the 7 Provinces.

    To be specific:

    Faction leader title: Prince
    Name: "Name" of Orange-Nassau (van Oranje-Nassau)
    That also looks the best solution to me.


    Special buildings (faction unique):

    Stockmarket (can only be build in Amsterdam)

    The 7 provinces introduced the modern way of stocktrading in 1602 in a very alike form still used today. They are not the inventors of it, but they are the ones that introduced the form of stocktrading still used today. In fact, the Dutch encountered the first ever known stock market crash; in 1637 the value of tulip bulbs (typically) collapsed after a economic bubble and almost killed the Dutch economy. Don't forget; large economical bubbles are still called "Tulipomania" in english.
    I don't think that it should be limited to Amsterdam. The player should be able to alter history....
    Special Units:

    For all the landunits i can refer to former forum posts. But the Dutch must get a naval bonus, for they were (truly astonishing) the naval power of the world during the period 1600-1750.

    Suggestion for land unit:

    If the others gave to much units, one you should surely contain:

    (water)geuzen: poorly armed fanatics with a strong charge
    (played a vital role in the indep.war)

    Suggestion for naval unit:

    Fluyt (Flute): Truly faction-unique naval unit. Mid-sized but powerful ship.
    I somehow have a strange feeling whit making watergeuzen a unit. Also a fluyt wasn't that powerfull if you ask me. Unique units, I'll come back to that if I can find good sources.

    EDit: sorry for my multiple posts.

  10. #40
    One of the Undutchables Member The Stranger's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Netherlands

    ive read about a regiment/corps of soldiers from the WIC/VOC... maybe they could be a special units... ill check for a pic and a better description

    We do not sow.

  11. #41

    Default Re: The Netherlands

    I have a question about the castles/forts in the Netherlands. I don't know that much about history, but what I see in my neighbourhood (I live in the netherlands) is that there are more forts here that defended city's/villages then there where castles. These forts looked something like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Fortbourtange.jpg
    Are these forts going to be in the game and if so how will you do it, because there are some serious restrictions in the totalwar script with putting in fortifications and stuff.

  12. #42

    Default Re: The Netherlands

    Quote Originally Posted by Gertgregoor
    Hmmm I'm not sure wether a k or a c would be used I don't think there was an actual spelling at this time. I know that before, the spelling and language relied on the place you were from and who had learned you to write. It may be that by this time there was an official spelling, but I don't think so. However for one reason or another I think a c looks more appropriate.
    Verry much correct. Until 1806 no such thing as an official spelling, or an official language for that matter, existed in the Netherlands.
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    ὁ δ᾽ ἠλίθιος ὣσπερ πρόβατον βῆ βῆ λέγων βαδίζει” – Kratinos in Dionysalexandros.

  13. #43

    Default Re: The Netherlands

    About any Geuzen units: don't do it. Should you wish to pursue: they should be very, very weak. Only because of a) sheer numbers, b) English and French support, and c) chance did they play a role at all in battles. (If it wasn't for b and c the whole Uprising wouldn't have got very far.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gertgregoor
    For all the landunits i can refer to former forum posts. But the Dutch must get a naval bonus, for they were (truly astonishing) the naval power of the world during the period 1600-1750.
    Cheap vessels were the key to their succes. (They were one of the first to build ships on an idustrial scale, using windmills to power the construction.) So perhaps, cheaper vessels would do?
    Last edited by Tellos Athenaios; 12-30-2006 at 12:42.
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    ὁ δ᾽ ἠλίθιος ὣσπερ πρόβατον βῆ βῆ λέγων βαδίζει” – Kratinos in Dionysalexandros.

  14. #44
    Speaker of Truth Senior Member Moros's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Netherlands

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios
    About any Geuzen units: don't do it. Should you wish to pursue: they should be very, very weak. Only because of a) sheer numbers, b) English and French support, and c) chance did they play a role at all in battles. (If it wasn't for b and c the whole Uprising wouldn't have got very far.)



    Cheap vessels were the key to their succes. (They were one of the first to build ships on an idustrial scale, using windmills to power the construction.) So perhaps, cheaper vessels would do?
    Yes cheap vessels. And ofcourse they also had great Ports. Also Remember that the fluyt was originally desined so that they had to pay less taxes.

    About the Guezen, it's hard to make one unit of it. Maybe it's better to just ahve a more generic levy like unit, which can also play the role of a geuzen unit.

    About the spelling indeed there was a real first official one in the Netherlands in 1804 and later in Flanders too. But I'm not sure if there were commonly accepted spellings for certain words or sounds. I know a lot varied from region,... but somethings might have been common everywhere. I also don't know if there was a consistent spelling used by the government. Maybe we could use the spelling used in laws from back then, see if they were consistent or not? Tough I don't know if they are easy accesable...

    One more thing do you guys need help with descriptions of buildings/units for the Netherlands?

  15. #45

    Default Re: The Netherlands

    Laws...
    IF someone of the Dev's had acces to the library in the Hague and he did understand the whole lot: it would altogether be quite possible. But till then I wouldn't count on it.
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    ὁ δ᾽ ἠλίθιος ὣσπερ πρόβατον βῆ βῆ λέγων βαδίζει” – Kratinos in Dionysalexandros.

  16. #46
    Speaker of Truth Senior Member Moros's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Netherlands

    Yeah, otherwise we could use the spelling of a certain writer. I should have some texts here from that era and I bet you can find some on the internet.

    Anyway, I went trough quite a lot of unit images (Osprey's ect) but I couldn't find much specific from the Netherlands, I did from other countries but not from the Netherlands. Tough I'll have a look when I get to the Slegte (spelling?) the next time. They have Osprey books there.

    Edit: talking about Naval units, what about Vlieboten? It's a boat with three masts. WHich was the type mostly used by the watergeuzen. Swift and with more men on it than ships of other nations (of the same size) would had on it.
    This is what the historian J. C. De Jonge wrote:
    'De schepen, welke voor de zee bestemd waren, bestonden meestal uit Vlieboten, eene soort van vaartuigen, niet grooter dan van veertig, honderd tot honderdveertig tonnen, welke gewapend waren met zes, acht, tien tot twintig grootendeels ijzeren, gegoten stukken geschut. Deze vaartuigen werden sterk bemand, en wel De Halve Maenmet zooveel personen als de schepen tonnen groot waren; zoodat een schip van vijtig ton vijftig, een schip van honderd tonnen, honderd zeelieden telde, die alle met schietgeweer gewapend en in het gebruik daarvan doorgaans zeer bedreven waren.

    De overloop of het dek van deze vaartuigen was laag, hetwerlk om het enteren te beletten, wel voorzien was van boevenetten of traliewerk uit hont of geschoren touwen zamen gesteld, dat met ketenen gespannen was. Bovendien bevonden zich gewoonlijk omtrent de masten die meestal twee waren, eenige verschansingenm om de busschieters of arquebusiers te dekken.'

    And:
    'De vlieboten komen voor onder de naam van 's Prinsen groote schepen of Razeilen, naar de zeilen welke zij voerden'.

    Another shiptype could be the "heudeschepen"
    Last edited by Moros; 12-30-2006 at 14:02.

  17. #47

    Default Re: The Netherlands

    And what about Oostindievaarders: basically a mercantile ship equipped with some war gear. Heavvier equiped than most other mercantile vessels, these stood a change against pirates - though their best defense against well organised attacks still would be sheer numbers.
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    ὁ δ᾽ ἠλίθιος ὣσπερ πρόβατον βῆ βῆ λέγων βαδίζει” – Kratinos in Dionysalexandros.

  18. #48
    Speaker of Truth Senior Member Moros's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Netherlands

    Yeah maybe, but I don't know what the unit limit is. If it is low they might not want to have taht many ships. So I don't think it would be bad having them, but I think Vlieboten and Fluyten should be the ones who should be in there first. Ofcourse the more the merrier.

  19. #49
    Member Member Jobst_vonGrünungen's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Netherlands

    Would it be possible to have the leaders title be "Prince of Orange", as opposed to "Emperor" or "Doge" or "King"? Willem van Nassau, Prince of Orange? I guess the title would have to come first... Prince of Orange Willem? That doesnt sound very good. Prince Willem of Orange? That's a tough one. I definitely agree with the others though the Prince of Orange is probably the best title for the Dutch Faction Leader, as opposed to steward or what-have-you...

    As for the spellings, I don't know if it helps at all to point this out but in Age of Empires III they spell it "Ruyters"...
    "I am the King of Rome, and therefore above grammar"
    - Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor

  20. #50

    Default Re: The Netherlands

    Would it be possible to have the leaders title be "Prince of Orange", as opposed to "Emperor" or "Doge" or "King"? Willem van Nassau, Prince of Orange? I guess the title would have to come first... Prince of Orange Willem? That doesnt sound very good. Prince Willem of Orange? That's a tough one. I definitely agree with the others though the Prince of Orange is probably the best title for the Dutch Faction Leader, as opposed to steward or what-have-you...
    yeah its definitely possible. in fact its easy since even i am able to do it.

  21. #51
    Speaker of Truth Senior Member Moros's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Netherlands

    Ruyter is quite correct. Ruiter probably is too. But I prefer Ruyter, because of the archaic feel. And in most Medieval Dutch texts and most rennaisance texts I read the "uy" was used. I honestly can't remember even to have seen the "ui" spelling. Therefore I guess the "uy" was more common. We know it is correct and gives an Archaic touch. That's 3 reasons to use the "uy".

  22. #52
    Notepad user Member Red Spot's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Netherlands

    its "Michiel (Adriaenszoon) de Ruyter" and he founded the Marines, and defeated the english fleet in the 2nd dutch-english war ...

    http://members.home.nl/tettero/ZuidHolland/Ruyter.htm
    http://www.bataviawerf.nl/de_ruyter.html
    http://www.engelfriet.net/Alie/Hans/voc.htm

    a bit more modern;
    http://www.deruyter.nl.nu


    G
    Last edited by Red Spot; 01-10-2008 at 20:56.

  23. #53

    Default Re: The Netherlands

    The "Zijne Majesteit's Garde te Voet" was a regiment formed by Stadhouder-King William III of England. I believe they fought in the williamite war and all others William III got involved in (against France too I think)

    as for traits, I got a nice idea for you: In Rome: Total War (and even more in Europa Barbarorum) the Romans have the "Patrician/plebeian and "New Man/Optimatus" traits. likewise, in the Dutch Republic, from the reign of Frederik-Hendrik (royal aspirations) onwards, there was a divide between the "Regenten" and "Prinsgezinden". Basically the Regenten were the mercantile- and noble class and represented the Republicans. The Prinsgezinden were mostly the common people and had more "royalist" inclinations, they wanted an Orange-Nassau in charge of the republic and mistrusted the mercantile ways of the Regenten. Later, in the 1700's, the regenten became the "Patriotten" (patriots).

    A "Prinsgezinde" family member would probably have more support from the common people, but will be lacking in Trade (penalty). A "Regent" should receive a bonus on trade, but also increase unrest.

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