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Thread: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

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    BLEEEE! Senior Member Daveybaby's Avatar
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    Default Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    Introduction
    Hey all, scouring the game textfiles to try to provide a definitive(ish) guide to guilds in M2TW. This is an expansion and general tidy up of the earlier ‘How to Attract Guilds’ thread, updated to include what it is that guilds actually do for you once you’ve gone to all the trouble of building them.

    This guide is broken up into two main parts. Firstly there is a general description of how guilds work, and how to get them into your cities. Second, there is a detailed breakdown of each guild type.

    Each guild’s description starts with a brief description of what the guild does, and how to get it. Next, there is a table of the different guild levels and exactly what they offer. Finally, there is a detailed breakdown of the guild requirements and features, as required.

    Hope this is of some use.


    Attracting Guilds
    Every settlement in the game keeps track of a “score” for every guild type. This score seems to be independent of who owns the settlement, how often it changes hands, or whether the settlement is a city or castle type (even though some guilds cannot be built at certain settlement types).

    Each guild type has 3 levels, to be offered a guild at a certain level the settlement has to score a certain number of points for that guild:

    Basic Guild: 100 points
    Masters Guild: 250 points
    Guild HQ: 500 points

    The settlement gains (and loses) points for each guild by performing certain actions. In general, the settlement where the action was performed will gain more points (typically in the range 10-30 points) than the other settlements (typically in the range 1-5 points). Some actions give equal points to all settlements regardless of where they were carried out. A list of actions and points gained for each guild is given in the guild descriptions below.

    In general, it makes sense to specialise your settlements in order to maximise your chances of getting offered a guild. If, say, you train all of your spies in London, you will get offered a Thieves guild quicker than if you trained half in London and half in Nottingham. This also applies to upgrading existing guilds.

    Don’t forget that you can only have one guild per settlement, and one master’s guild per faction, so choose your locations wisely. Also, there can be only one HQ for each guild in the game, so you will have to score points quickly to try to beat your opponents to the punch.


    Settlement Sizes
    In addition to guild scores, a settlement has to be of a certain size before a guild will be offered:

    Basic Guild: City / Fortress
    Master’s Guild: Large City / Citadel
    Guild HQ: Huge City / Citadel


    Guild Costs
    All guild types have the same costs for the different levels of guild:

    Basic Guild: 1000
    Master’s Guild: 2000
    Guild HQ: 3000


    Points Scored for All Guilds
    All guilds, regardless of type, gain and lose settlement points for the following actions:

    Upgrade a guild (+20 settlement bonus for that guild type, +10 to other settlements)
    Destroy a guild building (huge penalty for that guild type, -100 settlement, -20 others)
    Upgrade a settlement (+10 settlement bonus for all guild types)

    Every turn after turn 25 settlement scores are ‘normalised’, which means that every settlement loses 1 point for all of its guild scores. This makes it more difficult to gain some guilds which have limited opportunities to gain points.


    Guild Missions
    Bonuses are also given for successfully completing a guild mission, but failing to complete the guild mission will incur a penalty for that guild type.

    The following guilds offer missions:
    Assassin's/Hashashim's Guild: +/-10 all settlements
    Merchant's Guild: +/- 10/20 all settlements (depending on mission difficulty?)
    Explorer's Guild: +/-30 all settlements
    Theologian's Guild: +/-10 all settlements
    Thieves Guild: +/-10 all settlements



    Assassin's/Hashashim's Guild
    City based guild, providing law bonuses and training of battlefield assassins/hashashim.

    These two series of guilds are functionally identical to each other except for their names. Most factions use the assassin’s guild series, except for the muslim factions, which use the hashashim’s guild series.

    This guild series also improves the starting stats of assassins trained in the region. This is performed via the addition of character traits and ancillaries which give a range of bonuses, rather than via just increasing their skill level directly.

    To attract this guild, build assassins and the brothel series of buildings.


    Trained Units:
    According to export_descr_buildings.txt, only the Hungarians can train battlefield assassins (Hashashim are limited to muslim factions only). There is a limit of 3 units in the recruitment pool.

    Traits:
    When an assassin is trained in a settlement with any level guild, he gets the trained killer trait (+1 subterfuge).

    When a faction has a Master’s guild, any assassin trained in any settlement gets the Apprentice Trait (+1 subterfuge)

    When a faction has a guild HQ, any assassin trained in any settlement gets the Journeyman Trait (+1 subterfuge)

    Ancillaries:
    When assassins are trained in a settlement with any level guild, the assassin has a 20% chance to gain an Accomplice (+1 subterfuge) ancillary.

    When a Master’s guild or HQ is completed in a settlement, the governor of the settlement has a 33% chance of gaining a Master of Assassins (+1 personal security) ancillary.

    To Gain Assassin’s Guild Points:
    Train assassin: +10 settlement
    Successful Assassinations: +20 all settlements
    Governor with dread >4: +4 settlement bonus (per turn)
    Build brothel series buildings: +10/15/20/25/30 settlement, +0/0/0/2/5 others
    Succeed/Fail guild mission: +/-10 all settlements



    Alchemist’s Guild
    City based guild, providing valour bonuses to gunpowder units. To attract this guild, build gunpowder units and cannon maker buildings.


    To Gain Alchemist’s Guild Points:
    Train Cannons etc: +10/15/20 settlement
    Train handgunners etc: +15 settlement
    Build cannon maker series: +10/15/20/25/30 settlement, +1/2/3/4/5 others



    Explorer's Guild
    City based guild providing (according to export_descr_buildings.txt)… absolutely nothing in terms of settlement or unit bonuses.

    However, according to in game text this guild improves trade, and increases unit movement – but exactly how, and how much, is currently unknown (probably via the addition of ancillaries, below).

    In order to attract this guild, train merchants, build shipbuilding and merchant’s wharf series of buildings, and explore far away from your capital with your fleets.


    Ancillaries:
    When a General ends his turn in a settlement with any level of explorer’s guild, they have a 5% chance to gain an “Intrepid Explorer” ancillary (+15% Movement, +1 Line of Sight).

    When an Admiral is created in a settlement with any level of explorer’s guild, they have a 33% chance to gain a “Naval Navigator” ancillary (+1 Command, +10% Movement, +1 Line of Sight).

    When a settlement completes any level of explorer’s guild, between turns 208 and 225, the settlement governor will gain the “Amerigo Vespucci” ancillary (+15% Movement, +3 Line of Sight, +10 Trading).

    When a character ends a turn more than 60 units away from their capital, and the faction has an explorer’s guild (any level) between turns 102 and 122, they have a 5% chance of gaining the “Marco Polo” ancillary (+15% movement, +10 trading) (does not apply to muslim factions).

    When a character ends a turn more than 40 units away from their capital, and the faction has an explorer’s guild (any level) between turns 205 and 225, they have a 33% chance of gaining the “Vasco de Gama” ancillary (+15% movement, +10 trading).

    To Gain Explorer’s Guild Points:
    Train merchants: +10 settlement
    Build shipbuilding buildings: +15/20/25/30 settlement, +0/0/2/5 others
    Build merchants wharf series: +20/25/30 settlement, +0/2/5 others
    Fleet distance from capital 50-99: +3 all settlements
    Fleet distance from capital >100 : +5 all settlements
    Succeed/Fail Explorer guild mission: +/-30 all settlements

    Note that fleet distances are related to the admiral of your fleet, not the number of ships in it. It is unknown as yet whether splitting a fleet into individual ships (thus increasing the number of admirals) will increase your bonus or not. Possibly the game only counts ranked admirals (those that will not share command when merging fleets) to avoid this potential exploit.



    Horse Breeder's Guild
    City based guild providing valour bonuses to cavalry units.

    To attract this guild type, train cavalry and build stables, and throw races. Note that, since this is a city-based guild, it is quite difficult to obtain, since most of the points to be gained tend to be in castle provinces. One way to bypass this limitation is to convert a castle into a city after training lots of cavalry in it.


    Ancillaries:
    When a diplomat is trained in a settlement that has a horse breeders guild (any level), they have a 33% chance of acquiring the “Swift Steed” ancillary (+15% movement, +1 health).

    To Gain Horse Breeder’s Guild Points:
    Train cavalry: +10 settlement, +1 others
    Build stables series: +10/15/20/25/30 settlement, +1/2/3/4/5 others
    Build racetrack/sultan's racetrack +50/75 settlement, +5 others
    Governor throws races: +5 settlement



    Mason's Guild
    City based guild, providing a happiness bonus, a reduction in building costs, and a range of special infantry militia units. To attract this guild, build city walls, and military training buildings.

    Note: because this guild is city based, yet relies on buildings such as mustering halls and bowyers, it can be quite hard to obtain.


    Basic Guild Trainable Units:
    Spear Militia (all factions)

    Masters Guild Trainable Units:
    Bill Militia (England)
    Heavy Pike Militia (Scotland)
    Partisan Militia (France)
    Halberd Militia (HRE, Papacy, Sicily, Poland, Hungary, Egypt, Turks, Timurids)
    Swordstaff Militia (Denmark)
    Swordsmen Militia (Spain, Portugal)
    Italian Spear Militia (Milan, Venice)
    Spear Militia (Russia, Mongols)
    Byzantine Infantry (Byzantium)
    Urban Militia (Moors)

    Guild HQ Trainable Units:
    Heavy Bill Militia (England)
    Heavy Pike Militia (Scotland)
    Pike Militia (France, HRE, Spain, Portugal, Milan, Venice, Papacy, Sicily)
    Swordstaff Militia (Denmark)
    Halberd Militia (Poland, Hungary, Egypt, Turks, Timurids)
    Berdiche Axemen (Russia)
    Byzantine Infantry (Byzantium)
    Urban Militia (Moors)
    Spear Militia (Mongols)

    All of the above trainable units are at Valour 0, with a maximum of 4 units available, regardless of guild level.

    Ancillaries:
    When any masons guild is completed in a city, the governor has a 33% chance to gain the “Master Mason” ancillary (+10 Construction)

    To Gain Mason’s Guild Points:
    Build Stone wall series: +10/15/20 settlement, +2/2/3 others
    Build mustering halls series: +10/15/20/25/30 settlement, +2/2/2/2/3 others
    Build town watch series: +10/15/20/25/30 settlement +2/2/2/2/3 others
    Build armourer series: +10/15/15/20/25/30 settlement +2/2/2/2/2/3 others
    Build bowyer series: +10/15/20/30 settlement +2/2/2/3 others



    Merchant's Guild
    City based guild, providing trade income bonuses and a range of special cavalry militia units.

    In addition this guild series also improves the starting stats of merchants trained in the region. This seems to be performed via the addition of character traits which give a range of bonuses, rather than via just increasing their skill level directly.

    To attract this guild, train and use merchants, and build the merchant’s wharf and market series of buildings.


    Traits:
    When a merchant is trained in a settlement with a master’s guild or HQ, the merchant gains the “Merchant Guild Trained” trait (+1 Finance).

    When a faction has the merchants guild HQ, a merchant trained in any settlement will have the “Merchants Guild Member” trait (+1 Finance).

    Trainable Units:
    Merchant Cavalry Militia (England, Scotland, France, HRE, Denmark, Spain, Portugal, Poland, Hungary)
    Italian Cavalry Militia (Milan, Venice, Papacy, Sicily)
    Cavalry Militia (Russia)
    Greek Militia Cavalry (Byzantium)
    Arab Cavalry (Moors, Egypt)
    Sipahis (Turks)

    At Basic Guild and Master’s Guild levels, all units are trained at valour 0, with a maximum pool of 3 units. At guild HQ level all units are trained at valour 1, with a maximum pool of 4 units, except for English Merchant Cavalry, which remain at valour 0 for some reason best known to CA.

    To Gain Merchant’s Guild Points:
    Train merchants: +10 settlement
    Build merchants wharf series: +20/25/30 settlement, +0/2/5 others
    Build market series: +10/15/20/25 settlement, +0/0/2/5 others
    Make trade agreement: +10 all settlements
    Successful acquisition: +10 all settlements
    Income > 1000/2000/5000/10000: +1/2/3/4 all settlements (per turn)
    Succeed/Fail merchant's guild mission: +/- 10/20 all settlements (depending on mission difficulty?)



    Swordsmith's Guild
    Castle based guild which gives a bonus to melee weapons for units trained (or retrained) in the region.

    There is also a faction wide bonus to heavy cavalry, but it is unclear what form this takes – presumably a +1 valour bonus.

    Attract this guild type by building the armourer series of buildings, and by building certain unit types in the region.


    Note: for some factions there are no trainable units in their unit roster that meet the guild requirements listed. This means that those guilds will find it very difficult to obtain and upgrade swordsmith’s guilds. It should be possible to obtain the basic level guild by just building armourer buildings, but in practice this will be very difficult due to the -1 point per turn normalisation factor which kicks in after turn 25, and getting a masters guild or HQ is almost certainly impossible.

    Turkey can build Hashashims, but this would require the construction of a Master Hashashim’s guild, training up a large number of Hashashims, then destruction of the guild, conversion of the city to a castle, and then hope that you get offered a swordsmith’s guild. This is a bit arduous, to say the least.

    The best approach for these factions (Russia, Turkey, ???) is probably to conquer an enemy settlement which has already built a swordsmith’s guild.

    Ancillaries:
    When a settlement completes a swordsmith’s guild (any level) the governor has a 20% chance to gain the “Master Smith” ancillary (+2 training units (?)).

    To Gain Swordsmith’s Guild Points:
    Build armourer series: +10/15/15/20/25/30 settlement, +0/0/0/1/2/5 others
    Train sword unit: +15 settlement
    Units: Sword and Buckler Men, Sudanese Tribesmen, Swordsmen Militia, Armored Swordsmen, Highland Nobles, Zweihander, Noble Swordsmen, Forlorn Hope, Byzantine Infantry, Battlefield Assassins, Norse Swordsmen, Dismounted Feudal Knights, Dismounted Chivalric Knights, Dismounted Gothic Knights, Dismounted Conquistadores, Dismounted Italian MAA, Dismounted Broken Lances, Dismounted Norman Knights, Dismounted Polish Knights, Dismounted E Chivalric Knights, Dismounted Byzantine Lancers, Dismounted Latinkon, Hashishim, Urban Militia, Dismounted Christian Guard



    Theologian's Guild
    City based guild which improves the starting stats of priests trained in the region. This seems to be performed via the addition of character traits which give a range of bonuses, rather than via just increasing their skill level directly.

    To attract this guild, train priests, and build religious buildings.


    Traits:
    When a priest is trained in a settlement with a theologian’s guild (any level) they will acquire the “Theologians Guild Trained” trait (+1 piety).

    When a faction has a masters theologian’s guild, any priests trained will acquire the “Theologians Guild Member” trait (+1 piety)

    When a faction has the theologian’s guild HQ, any priests trained will acquire the “Theologians Guild Journeyman” trait (+2 piety)

    Ancillaries:
    When a general ends his turn in a settlement with a theologian’s guild (any level) they will acquire the “Priest” ancillary (+1 piety).

    To Gain Theologian’s Guild Points:
    Train Priests: +10 settlement
    Build church/masjid series: +10/15/20/25/30 settlement, +0/0/1/2/5 others
    Get your cardinal elected pope: +30 all settlements
    Governor's piety >5: +5 settlement (per turn)
    Succeed/Fail theologian's guild mission: +/-10 all settlements
    Priest becomes a heretic: -5 all settlements



    Thieves Guild
    City based guild which improves the skill of thieves trained in the area. This seems to be performed via the addition of character traits which give a range of bonuses, rather than via just increasing their skill level directly.

    To attract this guild, train and use spies, and build the brothel series of buildings.


    Traits:
    When a Spy is trained in a settlement with a Basic level thieves guild, they will get the “Thieves Guild Trained” trait (+1 subterfuge).

    When a Faction has a Master Thieves guild, any spies trained will get the “Thieves Guild Member” trait (+1 subterfuge).

    When a Faction has a Thieves guild HQ, any spies trained will get the “Thieves Guild Journeyman” trait (+2 subterfuge).

    Note: there is a bug (?) which means that thieves trained in the basic level guild get the “Guild Trained” trait, but those trained in upper level guilds do not.

    Ancillaries:
    When a settlement completes a thieves guild (any level), the governor has a 20% chance to acquire the “Spymaster” ancillary (Security +1, training agents +4)

    To Gain Thieves Guild Points:
    Train spies: +10 settlement
    Build brothel series: +10/15/20/25/30 settlement
    Governor with dread >4: +2 settlement (per turn)
    Spy in a settlement: +2 all settlements (per turn)
    Succeed/Fail thieves guild mission: +/-10 all settlements



    Woodsman's Guild
    Castle based guild providing valour bonuses to archery units, and allowing the English to train Sherwood Foresters.

    To attract this guild, train archers (only if you are English), build the brothel series of buildings, and install a high chivalry governor.


    Trainable Units:
    Sherwood archers are only trainable by the English. A guild HQ doubles the recruitment rate, and increases the maximum number of units in the pool from 2 to 3.

    To Gain Woodsman’s Guild Points:
    Recruit archers (England only!): +10/15/20 settlement (depending on unit)
    Build brothel series: +10/15/20/25/30 settlement, +0/0/0/2/5 others
    Governor with chivalry >4: +5 settlement (per turn)

    Note: Most archer types give a +10 settlement bonus, except for Longbowmen/Yeomen Archers (+15) and Sherwood archers (+20)



    Crusader Knight's Chapter Houses
    These four chapter houses have been grouped together since they are very similar in requirements and in what they produce.

    These are castle based guilds providing the ability to train the various types of crusader knights (heavy cavalry units). The St. Johns Chapter House series give an additional settlement health bonus.

    Templars Chapter Houses are restricted to catholic factions only (excluding HRE, Spain and Portugal).
    St. John’s Chapter Houses are restricted to catholic factions only (excluding HRE, Spain and Portugal).
    Teutonic Knights Chapter Houses are restricted to the HRE only.
    Knights of Santiago Chapter Houses are restricted to Spain and Portugal only.

    To attract these guilds, join crusades, and hold provinces in lands bordered by non-catholic factions.


    Trained Units:
    Upgrades to the guild level increase the recruitment rate, and the increase the maximum number of units in the recruitment pool, from 3, to 4, to 6.

    The Templar’s Chapter House series allow training of Knights Templar.
    The St. John’s Chapter House series allow training of Knights Hospitaller.
    The Teutonic Knights’ Chapter House series allow training of Teutonic Knights.
    The Knights of Santiago Chapter House series allow training of Knights of Santiago.

    To Gain Crusader Knight’s Guild Points:
    General joins crusade: +25 all settlements
    General abandons crusade: -25 all settlements
    Recruit Specialist Knight: +10 settlement, +1 others (knight type tied to guild type)
    Governor Chivalry >4: +5 settlement (per turn)

    St. John's guild get a +10 settlement, +1 others bonus when the settlement has muslim neighbours (for each settlement, each turn)
    St. John's guild get a +10 bonus for all settlements when you declare war on a muslim faction.
    Teutonic guild get a +10 settlement, +1 others bonus when the settlement has pagan neighbours (for each settlement, each turn)





    Unanswered Questions
    This guide was compiled mainly through analysis of the contents of the various text data files used by the game. A lot of it could do with backing up with empirical in-game testing, since some of the statements in the text files (e.g. +3 movement, how much is that, exactly?) aren’t too clear.

    Specific questions that need answering:
    Is it a bug that some factions will find it nigh-on impossible to obtain swordsmith’s guilds?

    Is it a bug that thieves guild above basic level do not give the ‘guild trained’ trait?

    It seems obvious to me that horse breeders guilds should be located in castles, rather than cities, since this is where most cavalry is trained. Is this a bug?

    What does ‘training agents/units +4’ mean w.r.t. ancillaries?

    How are the number of points decided for merchant’s guild missions?

    How do explorers guild trade bonuses work?

    Why do some guilds stubbornly refuse to show up for some people/factions/regions/games despite fulfilling the prerequisites?


    Thanks to
    Kobal2fr, Eldon, Dismal, Basileus for thrashing through the meanings of some of this stuff.
    Therother for his list of guild effects, and for the list of data files pre-patch.
    CA for making a game good enough for me to want to know what’ actually going on under the hood.

    If anyone notices any errors, omissions etc, post and i will fix it up. Cheers.
    Last edited by Daveybaby; 01-03-2007 at 12:55.

  2. #2
    Just an Oldfart Member Basileus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    +3 movement is 15% more movement oh and awesome job guys great post!

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    Member Member Snarkfarfar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    Great job, thanks! Very helpful!

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    Praeparet bellum Member Quillan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    As Byzantium, I got a Swordsmith's Guild HQ in Ragusa. It gave a global 2xp to all knights I recruited anywhere in my territory in addition to the local melee weapon upgrade. It didn't benefit non-knights, so my cavalry militia and horse archers didn't get the bonus, nor did any new generals bodyguard units. Kataphractoi did.
    Age and treachery will defeat youth and skill every time.

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    Guardian of the Fleet Senior Member Shahed's Avatar
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    Default Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    Excellent job ! That is a marvelous guide. Hats off !

    Reading through that it has confirmed what I thought all along, that this system too is broken and does'nt work as it's supposed to. I've already posted about that in another thread on guild help.

    Anyway this is a great job and I'll sure be adding this to my favorites !
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    Village special needs person Member Kobal2fr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    Outstanding job ! Thank you.

    Just a thing : the reason Thieve's guild is weird is because its triggers are bugged in the export_descr_character_traits.txt

    It should give +1 locally at all levels, +1 factionwide at master level, and +2 factionwide at HQ level, but because the triggers all check for wether each level of the guild exists, instead of each level AND the levels below it, what happens is that basic guild gives +1 local, master gives +1 faction only, HQ gives faction +1 only.

    It has to be an overlook and not intended, since it doesn't even give Journeyman trait for HQ level (ie HQ and Master would be exactly the same)
    Last edited by Kobal2fr; 12-20-2006 at 21:07.
    Anything wrong ? Blame it on me. I'm the French.

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    Member Member dismal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    An excellent presentation Daveybabey.

    I think, perhaps, it's worth noting that most of the guild point award system is still at the stage of hypothesis until we have controlled tests that re-produce these results -- i.e., that guild offers occur on the turn one would expect them to if one kept track of all the relevant events.

    Seems like one could test theologians guilds most easily since it's hard to get the events without noticing/trying.
    Last edited by dismal; 12-20-2006 at 21:38.

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    Member Member KeyserSoze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    Kudos Daveybaby. I've been looking for something like this since I started playing M2TW on launch day. I've seen other guides, but with gaps. This is pretty much definitive.

    Mods please sticky this!

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    Dismounted Brooklyn Knight Member HaroldVonBraver's Avatar
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    Default Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    Finally! Good descriptions and a great breakdown of all the Guilds in the game. Great Post. Keep up the good work.

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    Guardian of the Fleet Senior Member Shahed's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    Quote Originally Posted by Daveybaby
    Specific questions that need answering:
    1. Is it a bug that some factions will find it nigh-on impossible to obtain swordsmith’s guilds?

    2. Is it a bug that thieves guild above basic level do not give the ‘guild trained’ trait?

    3. It seems obvious to me that horse breeders guilds should be located in castles, rather than cities, since this is where most cavalry is trained. Is this a bug?

    4. What does ‘training agents/units +4’ mean w.r.t. ancillaries?

    5. How are the number of points decided for merchant’s guild missions?

    6. How do explorers guild trade bonuses work?

    7. Why do some guilds stubbornly refuse to show up for some people/factions/regions/games despite fulfilling the prerequisites?
    I added some numbers to the questions there primarily for myself, but also for you, so you can easier see which questions I attempt to answer, the best I can.

    1. Judging from the Turk roster particularly in higher development stages when Kapikulu and JHI become available it would seem to me that there is no need for any upgrades except armor (and perhaps some stat tweaking) for the JHI.

    The Turk unit roster becomes quite adequate. The Turks are, however, one of the factions for which getting a Swordsmith's guild is near impossible. I have not played extensively with other factions so I cannot say for sure about them. Hence I don't think it is a bug, but can speculate that this is something they left out, and perhaps had more important things to fix (we know they did actually). I cannot say with certainty if it s a bug or not. What I can say however is that it would be nice to mod the game to include this for the Turks. As I mentioned already it is not a necessity, but if everyone else gets it then they should too.

    2. If that's what it's supposed to do from reading the file, then yes it's a bug.

    3. This is a similar question to 1. The Islamic factions can train decent medium cavalry in cities. It could be that this is a trade off between swordsmith's guild and horse breeder's guild. Catholic factions can get the swordsmith's guild easier whereas Islamic factions can get the horse breeder's guild easier.

    This game is not historically accurate. Though one can observe many decent attempts have been made to make it so. One could successfully argue that in some ways (but not all) it is more historically accurate than MTW.

    One of those things that can be successfully argued is the Arab love affair for horses, the Arabs had an extensive horse breeding tradition and went to great lengths to have fine mounts. Horse could (and still can) sell for "many wives" according to an Arab friend of mine (exageration and humor obviously, with some hint of truth). The Turks came to Anatolia in the saddle so there's really no need to explain how they felt about horses. Horses were to the early Turks as they were to the Mongols, almost everything. We have to remember also that the way the horses were trained and treated was different to the European methods.

    This is an improbable way to explain why the Horse Breeder's Guild would be set up to come easier to the Islamic factions. Another reason could be to give some more distinctive differentiation to the faction groups i.e Catholic, Islamic etc.

    I don't actually think this is the case, it's probably another unfinished code.

    6. I'm not sure I understand the question. If I'm not mistaken they work on a percentage basis. +10%.

    7. This is happening in my current campaign. This is clearly because the system is not working as intended. The more I understand the scoring system the more I understand it does not work consistently.

    If it were you would get the guild exactly where you wanted at exactly the time you wanted. This is assuming that we understand the way the guild scores work, which obviously we do.

    The system is not working in every instance, that is why we have large discrepancies in the effects of the guild scores on settlements in many simultaneously ongoing campaigns.

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  11. #11
    Nephil Member SMZ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    It seemed to me as if in addition to the understandable factors which you can use to work toward getting the Guild(s) you want, there is also a random chance of having various Guilds just pop up every turn... or maybe an instant chance for each action. I've had the Knights of Santiago offer Chapter Houses as early as around turn 20 or so in my Portugese campaigns; when I know that I have not accrued enough points, technically, to obtain them yet. The same has occured in English campaigns with Knights of Saint John and Templars as well.

    In my most recent campaign for instance, I called for a Crusade against Cordoba, sacked it, called a Crusade against Marrakesh, sacked it, and was then offered a Chapter House for Leon. I had no Governors anywhere in my kingdom, they were all in various invasion forces... so technically, I should have only had 50 points.

    It would seem then that the information available on Guilds should function as general guidelines... as usual CA's handiwork is so complicated that I doubt we will ever have it fully explained.



    EDIT: Great guide by the way... *goes to use similar coding to make mine prettier*
    Last edited by SMZ; 12-21-2006 at 04:07.
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  12. #12
    BLEEEE! Senior Member Daveybaby's Avatar
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    Default Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobal2fr
    the reason Thieve's guild is weird is because its triggers are bugged in the export_descr_character_traits.txt
    Yup, there's an = check where there should be a >=. Very simple to fix.

    Quote Originally Posted by dismal
    I think, perhaps, it's worth noting that most of the guild point award system is still at the stage of hypothesis until we have controlled tests that re-produce these results -- i.e., that guild offers occur on the turn one would expect them to if one kept track of all the relevant events.
    Absolutely, empirical validation would be very handy. I think most of the stuff is correct, but there also seem to be some other factors which have yet to be determined. I might rewrite the intro make make it clearer that a lot of this stuff is still subject to confirmation.

    @Sinan : yeah, i can see the argument that these factions have a hard time getting these guilds for balance reasons, but if thats the way CA decided to do it then its not a very player-friendly way to do it. Much better to just outright disallow those guilds explicitly for certain factions instead of leaving the player scratching his head as to why they arent getting those guilds.

    6. I'm not sure I understand the question. If I'm not mistaken they work on a percentage basis. +10%.
    Well, if you mean +1 movement = +10% - some people have suggested that +3 movement = +15% (i.e. +1 = +5%), which is why i think this needs clarification.

  13. #13
    Member Member Naefen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    Good job. This is helpful.

    Playing as HRE I have loads of Teutonic`s
    There can be only one....

  14. #14
    I wanna be a real boy! Member chunkynut's Avatar
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    Default Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    Great job on the update, just printed it here at work :D the initial one was very insightful and this is much more polished (not the faction ;) )

  15. #15
    Cynic Senior Member sapi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    This just popped into my head, and is probably obvious to the rest of you but i'll post it up anyway.

    I think the reason you get lots of crusader type guilds is because if a stack with, say, 3 family members in it joins a crusade, that's 3x25=75 points, which is quite a bit. Combine that with the fact that a province with Muslim neighbours gets +10, and declaring war on a Muslim faction also nets +10 (for a st johns guild), it's possible to meet the requirements for said guild immediately upon conquering a Muslim province (=25x3 for avg. no. of generals involved, +10 for declaration of war, +10 for the inevitable border with Muslims, and +whatever in total for the chivalry bonuses your governor gets on successful completion of the crusade).

    Just thought i'd mention it ;P
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  16. #16
    Nephil Member SMZ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    That's a good idea, but for instance with my experience, I know for certain that I only had one General join my Crusades, because I had the other two running off to conquer in other directions. And secondly, the triggers for bordering Muslims and declaring war on them only fired for Knights of Saint John, which I didn't have available as the Portugese....

    I've gotta think there are more things going on still that we don't know about...
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  17. #17
    Village special needs person Member Kobal2fr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    Just a precision : the StJohn +10 when bordering Muslims is PER TURN.
    Which explains how fast they crop up.

    Same goes for the Teutonics, although of course that doesn't last long as

    1) there is no pagan-boosting faction, and the existing >50 pagan regions NE of germany are quickly converted to christianity by the Poles and Danes.

    2) The german regions bordering those lands are not big cities at the start of the game.

    The Aztecs are Pagan too, so I guess a Drang Nar Amerika would revive the order after that
    Last edited by Kobal2fr; 12-21-2006 at 19:57.
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  18. #18
    BLEEEE! Senior Member Daveybaby's Avatar
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    Default Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    Nice points. HRE is surrounded by quiet a few pagan lands though, so it wouldnt take many turns to hit the threshold for the basic guild.

    Hmmm... i wonder... since the patch the AI seems to treat coastal provinces as neighbours for the purposes of invasion priorities. Depending on where the code for this was bolted in, possibly the definition of 'bordering' w.r.t. muslim and pagan regions has changed in the same way.

  19. #19
    Village special needs person Member Kobal2fr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    Not sure. I don't think all lands are counted as sharing borders when coastal, because even with a full stack fresh out the boats, the AI still "wants peace", which is the AI setting for "if atWar and isneighbour = false", as has been noted by other posters in other threads.

    So I'm really puzzled about what CA did to make naval invasions possible and widespread. Like you, I thought they just turned the seas into big borders, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

    Or maybe it IS the case, but only for naval invasion purposes.

    Is there a mindreader in the audience ?
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  20. #20
    Member Member Handel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    So for non-english the only way to get a missile guild is through high shivalry governor? Or to capture it from the english?

  21. #21
    BLEEEE! Senior Member Daveybaby's Avatar
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    Default Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    Or build a LOT of brothels very quickly .

  22. #22
    Senior Member Senior Member econ21's Avatar
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    Default Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    Daveybaby: this is good stuff - I think you should PM frogbeastegg to see if she can find a home for it in the guilds, so we don't lose it in the churning waterfall of threads that it is the Citadel.

  23. #23
    Apathist Member Lorenzo_H's Avatar
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    Default Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    I like this thread.

    So how many crusades are nessesary to get Knights of Santiago? I have done a lot of joining and abandoning of Crusades in my 160 or so turns as the Spanish so far.
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  24. #24
    Guardian of the Fleet Senior Member Shahed's Avatar
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    Default Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    One solution for Swordsmith's Guild (which is very useful) for Turks is to attack selectively.

    Let your neighbours build one to HQ level and then take that settlement hoping you get the guild.

    I did it with Sicily in Ragusa, it worked. In Bran with Poland, it worked. Took about 50-80 years.
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  25. #25
    Member Member Grifman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    A couple of questions:

    Do xbowmen count in terms of points towards the woodsman guild or just archers?

    Are higher level guilds just upgrades of existing guilds, or totally new buildings that can be in cities different from where the lower level guild of the samd type is?

  26. #26
    Praeparet bellum Member Quillan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    Quote Originally Posted by diablodelmar
    So how many crusades are nessesary to get Knights of Santiago? I have done a lot of joining and abandoning of Crusades in my 160 or so turns as the Spanish so far.

    Well, let's do the math. You need 150 points. You get 25 points for each time a general joins a crusade, and lose those points each time a general abandons the crusade. 150/25=6. So, you need 6 generals joining crusades separately without later abandoning said crusade to qualify. One possible option is to have a single general join a crusade, then move the general out. Move another general in and have him join the crusade, then move him out. Repeat with as many generals as you have in the area, and leave the last one in to command it. That might get you a bunch.

    After the crusade is over, you should have at least one general with a 5+ chivalry. Take those generals to the settlement(s) you want chapterhouses in and make them governors. Each settlement will earn 5 points every turn the governor has a chivalry of 5 or more. You could probably earn the points fairly early in the campaign that way.

    Another option is cheating, or rather taking advantage of an exploit. Send an army (or more than one, whatever you're planning on sending) on the crusade. Right before the crusade concludes, no matter who is going to take the target, have all your other armies join the crusade. The crusade should end, they'll all get the benefits, and you won't have to worry about them deserting because they didn't make progress towards the target. Then use the governors with high chivalry to earn more points.

    From the looks of it, the Poor Knights of the Temple of Solomon and the Knights of Santiago are the most difficult to get, because they don't have any special circumstances that give you bonus points towards the guild. Crusading and high chivalry governors are the only ways to earn them.
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  27. #27
    Senior Member Senior Member katank's Avatar
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    Default Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    Quote Originally Posted by Grifman
    A couple of questions:

    Do xbowmen count in terms of points towards the woodsman guild or just archers?

    Are higher level guilds just upgrades of existing guilds, or totally new buildings that can be in cities different from where the lower level guild of the samd type is?
    I believe woodsman guild is unique to the English who don't get xbowmen. Thus, a moot point.

    Higher level guilds are upgrades of existing guilds that are offered when you get enough points and the settlement is of the appropriate level.

  28. #28
    Senior Member Senior Member econ21's Avatar
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    Default Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    With frogbeastegg's approval, I am moving this thread over from the Citadel to the M2TW Guides forum.

  29. #29
    Member Member MilesGregarius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    Great post. I have a much better understanding of what I'm doing with guilds.

    Still, I seem to get plenty of results I can't explain:

    In my current Milan campaign, I requested and got permission to crusade against (still rebel) Tunis. I had an army all set to go, so I immediately joined up with four generals (ergo 100 points), marched them to Genoa, and boarded ships. The next turn, before the fleet had even departed the docks, I was offered a Templar chapter house in Milan, which I accepted. The next turn, with the crusaders still only as far as the coast of Sardinia, I was offered a chapter house in Genoa.

    In the previous campaign as Sicily, I did the same, only with three generals, took Tunis, left a high chivalry governor in place, and had the Muslim Moors on my borders for endless turns, but never got offered either military order in the time it took to finish off Milan and Venice (short campaign).

    In an earlier campaign as Milan, I crash built all the merchant type buildings (markets/wharves/et cetera) in Genoa, pumped out merchants as fast as I could, and recruited far fewer spies than usual (and none in Genoa), but repeatedly got offered a Thieves' Guild there, but no Merchants'.

    Anyone fathom why?

  30. #30

    Default Re: Daveybaby's Guide to Guilds

    Very nice guide, Daveybaby. As for your questions:

    What does ‘training agents/units +4’ mean w.r.t. ancillaries?

    Well it means that training agents/units in the settlement in which family member with this ancillary in the governor will be cheaper. Each +1 point = -5% of the recruiting price.

    Is it a bug that thieves guild above basic level do not give the ‘guild trained’ trait?

    That is a bug, all right. Not only guild buildings suffer from it. For instance Huge Cathedral does not cause trained priests to be Bishops, even though cathedrals do. It is quite easy to fix in the export_descr_character_traits.txt file - just replace = with >= in the appropriate trigger. Off course this will work only in you run the game from modified batch file or shortcut, forcing the game to take its data from the unpacked files (details can be found in readme for the 1.1 patch).

    Is it a bug that some factions will find it nigh-on impossible to obtain swordsmith’s guilds?

    I do not think so, as it depends on their units roster and their building browser. Check the types of units and buildings that trigger the guild. Compare them with types and availability of units and buildings in export_descr_unit.txt and export_descr_buildings.txt files.

    It seems obvious to me that horse breeders guilds should be located in castles, rather than cities, since this is where most cavalry is trained. Is this a bug?

    It does not only concern the horse breeders guild, but also for instance the masons guild (as you said). As above compare the guild, units and buildings txt files - you'll see that a lot of buildings and units do not correspond to the "city" type guilds as they are "castle" type units / buildings.

    As Sinan said it was most likely done to diversify the game: some factions can get some of the the guilds easier than other factions. Now to disallow those guilds all together, as you said, would rise the question: what to do with the captured towns and their guilds? Make them useless (there are few such guilds - notably the Knight Orders cheaper houses, that are, apart from St. Johns, useless to faction outside the circle of factions able to recruit those order knight units)? Make them disappear?

    I think that the idea that the faction can capture and use those difficult to obtain guilds is a right one - historically speaking a lot of skills and know-how has passed from conquered to the conquerors.

    How are the number of points decided for merchant’s guild missions?

    I do not have the exact equation, but I do strongly suspect that richness of the reward or severity of penalty is a good way to distinguish more important missions.

    How do explorers guild trade bonuses work?

    Sorry, but do explorers guilds have trade bonuses? The export_descr_buildings.txt does not mention them.

    AFAIK they grant ancillaries that increase movement and those usually work in "1 point = 5% bonus" way. I also think that explorers guild may be vital for New World events, but I am not 100% sure of that.

    Why do some guilds stubbornly refuse to show up for some people/factions/regions/games despite fulfilling the prerequisites?

    Now this may be a bug. I have noticed that, too. It may have something to do with the fact that few cities may reach the treshold in the same turn, but there is only one offer. I am planning to make a chart and carefully follow the point progression (and decrease) for all guilds and all cities in my upcoming campaign (plus to confirm my other observations). Maybe that will yield an answer.

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