Htw Spin-off Mod - Ancient: TW

[western]

I'm following this with a lot of interest. Sea Peoples are a great idea for High - should make for quite a different gameplay from early (and make good use of all those island provinces). Any thoughts for Late? My history that far back gets a bit hazy, and the map doesn't suit things that were small scale or happening too far East. But two periods is already twice what I hoped this Mod would give us.

[macsen rufus]

Hi Western, thanks for your input, nice to know there's more interest out there

My history that far back gets a bit hazy

Don't worry - everybody's history that far back is hazy - even the experts'!

Trying to sift the supportable evidence from the orthodox grand assumptions is nigh on impossible, but the view I'm taking is influenced by Drews' book as mentioned above. He's changed my mind on a few things.... I do now accept that, okay, maybe the Sherdan did come from Sardinia, the Shekelesh from Sicily etc. Although it seems like these were really just small mercenary components fighting alongside Libyans and Philistines (ref Medinet Habu stelae) rather than a huge army in their own right. But still, for game play purposes I think I'll stick with the original plan

Late era will be different again, I'm not entirely decided on what exactly will feature yet, as the precise dates aren't finalised. I'm tending towards:

Early: 1275BC to 1200BC
High: 1200BC to 980BC
Late: 980BC to 700??

So Late will include Solomon's Israelite kingdom, Neo-Hittites states and Neo-Assyrian empire, and the Greeks will have developed a little bit - I still need to check appropriate dates, but I guess this is the "Geometric" era of Greek history, so the appropriate HTW units are already available. Also the Phoenicians will be well established (I might have to pretend that Carthage was a founded a little earlier than it really was.

Progress over the weekend:

* Quite a few province and castle names changed (eg Ugarit, Canaan, Phoenicia, Etruria, Assur, Hatti, Colchis + more)
* Rebel 'factions' renamed (no more Jacquerie in Bronze Age France )
* Finally worked out why the era description wasn't showing (a 'd' where there should have been a 'D' - arrgh!)
* A few border details changed so that certain unique HTW maps get played in suitable places (inland mountain river now defends Hatti to north, west and south to represent the Halys river)
* An hour-long struggle with CTDs after trying to place a resource as a trade good

It's going to be impossible to remove all anachronisms, as so much is truly "prehistoric" in the pre-literate parts of the world, but I guess we're just going to have to live with a few compromises.

Finally:

Here's the results of importing the HTW castles - I think this assault looks a lot more like Bronze Age Norway than the old MTW maps:

[western]

Great looking pics Macsen. When it comes to factions, have you thought about the Cimmerians for Late? Chased off the steppe by the Scythians and then migrated down through the Caucasus, fought the Assyrians around 690 and finished up 60 or so years later in Lydia (ie Nicaea in MTW terms). Check it out on Wikipedia - could make a good use of S. Russia and Anatolia, and should be possible to clone from the Scythians (says he glibly).

[axel]

Hi mate`s
Pics look really great macsen

[dimitrios the samian]

Nice thoughts Western ..... Im sure Macsen will consider it perhaps ,, I figure he still has more unused skins leftover from the Bronze Age Expansion that he can actually use on this upcoming mod on the XL map ..... What we really need is a Mesopotamian Map !! So the HTW Persians can be used / cloned as well ..... perhaps even Indians of the Indus Valley too !! .... just dreaming for now

[macsen rufus]

The Cimmerians are present as rebels (ie province rebel name) for now - thinking of turning them into a faction for high/late - meanwhile there are some Cimmerian HAs available in Khazar etc - mostly to prevent the Thracians steamrolling the steppes. Strictly speaking they're probably proto-Cimmerian, but some of my sources suggest the language group was already present of the lower steppe by this period. Potential anachronism, but in gameplay terms fills another dead spot on the map And yes, the HTW units include some Scythians, which is what I'm turning into Cimmerians.

Last night I got stuck into the map editor, and have made significant progress towards a new castle type. Basically tested the concept by altering an HTW map, so now I know it works I can make my own from scratch, but more true to the original idea. I managed to test it in a custom battle by exporting it in into MTW-VI (for some reason custom battles don't work in the Bronze Age, bit of a pain....) and it played quite well with Irish, Vikings, Northumbrians and Picts, anyway! The second type I'm planning will be a cake-walk compared to this one. If they're ready in time for a beta release they will be included, but I might have a castles expansion pack later instead, we'll see...

I was also tidying up some little details around faction shields as well (some of them are still distinctly 2D looking, so I'm putting on shading and resaving them, so they look more like the rest). Oh, I love Photoshop

So what I propose:

* I'll finish off faction shields and colours (too many green factions)
* cut out as much unused stuff as possible
* make a few more tech tree changes
* set up a start leader for the remaining factions (I still have four King Bendidoras out there!)
* set up separate names for each faction
* maybe... finish off one or two new castle maps
* maybe... tidy up the front-end

.... and then I think I'll be ready to do a beta release

[dimitrios the samian]

Yipee !!!! A NEW MAP .... I have faith in you Macsen ,, I like the rest of us popping in & out firstly want this to come out & then ........ well why not a new map centred around the Euphrates & further expansions backwards into the golden era of Assyria , Babylon & all those others "if it takes your fancy ofcourse ",, Ok - One question out of curiosity ,, How have you factored in the Mongol Horde event ? that takes place ?

[macsen rufus]

@DTS - hmm, how to let down gently -- it's only a new battle map with a castle, not a new campaign map -- maybe in due course, though!

AFIK the various events like GH, gunpowder etc are hardcoded to certain dates, so it's probably not possible to have one without the rest, though to be honest I haven't looked into it properly, just avoided those dates, like most mods do. Now I have found the text messages that come up with these events, so they could be changed, but I expect the "results" would still be the same - ie new trade goods appearing, acumen to certain governors, influence to faction leaders. BUT these will probably cause CTDs if the appropriately named factions aren't present (ie as it's based on VI the factions are labelled as FN_01, FN_02 etc rather than FN_ENGLISH, FN_DANISH yadda yadda..) However I don't see any reason one faction (ie Sea Peoples) couldn't be labelled as FN_GOLDEN_HORDE, but they'll almost certainly end up emerging in Khazar, unless region declarations are changed, and suddenly it all starts to look very complicated.... not impossible, but involved.

Another line of thought I intend to investigate is to try and make "civilised" and "barbarian" castle lines diverge (should be possible by using the "upgrade" slots) and if I get really ambitious make some "Middle eastern" castle textures based on those fort pics you emailed....

And in 2012 I might resurrect my Britannia 43AD mod

[dimitrios the samian]

I live & hope ,, But your news & progress over the past few weeks is amazing Macsen ,, I must be honest & say that I downloaded the Bif Slayer & along with my Paint-Shop Pro began messing about with one Citadel bif or buf and found it most interesting but beyond me at the moment but I did manage to make it Assyrian !! surprised myself ... I am pleased to hear that we can use other imported images to represent castles / forts & citadels on the campaign map as it just gives it that extra flavour ,, Let me know if you need more pics of any type OK ,, I just feel I want to assist in some way and eventually over the next few months learn how to make/modify parchments , campaign map peices , review panels etc etc ... cheers for now ,, DTS

[macsen rufus]

Only a little update today:

2 new castle maps - the one I trialled as an HTW map yesterday has been redone, and whilst it has some quirks, it does work, and the other idea works, no serious quirks. Unfortunately I was up til 2am playing testing, so haven't had time to take any screenshots for you, but to cut to the chase they are 1) a crannog and 2) a hillfort.

As they work in VI it will be possible to add them in there and play them as a custom game, so if anyone wants a taster - just PM an email address and I can send them out tomorrow (DTS I have yours so will send them anyway )

The crannog is modelled as close as MTW will allow ie it's a bit too square and it's a peninsula rather than linked by a bridge, but you get the general feel. It also has a river in it so the attackers can't deploy right at the gate (although the starting army does seem to face the wrong way at first.... - but I think that's down to combining a river and a castle, the HTW map does the same... I guess at the deployment stage it says "Hmm, there's a river, I have to deploy in the north. And there's a castle, so I have to FACE north" ... )

The hillfort is similarly a bit too square (but you'll never get round that as the maps are grid based). It really requires a larger map, so the higher castle levels will go onto a 'large' one.

Next one I've sketched out is for a cliff-top fort, well defended and overlooking the sea. Hope to make that one tonight.

[macsen rufus]

Well, I didn't get the cliff-top stronghold done, but I did finish off the hilffort series of maps and succesfully imported them into the Bronze Age, and even managed to call it up properly using the "map group" entry from region attributes. In the process of testing I discovered the reason why citadels don't work properly in HTW BA - the map groups are organised for five castle levels each with one upgrade, yet the second castle in the game (fortified village) calls the map for 'level 2 upgrade 0' rather than 'level 1 upgrade 1'. Therefore all the other maps are out of sync by a level, and once citadel level is reached there are no maps left. Hence the "default" battle map loads instead (a slightly bumpy flat grassland without trees or water or hills). You get exactly the same map when you set border attributes that don't match any map type in your battle/maps folder.

Mind you I've only tested up to second level yet, so am not able to say what the full fix for HTW will be, but I shall in due course

Anyway, here's the hillfort in action, with extreme perspectives possible thanks to -ian:

View from south east:



View from south west:



A couple of close-up views:

[dimitrios the samian]

Fantabulous Macsen !! very nice indeed ,, also well done unravelling more of the synchronicity & how it all gels ,, Have a good Easter man and make sure you put in a bit of R&R time for yourself ok .... cheers ,, DTS

[macsen rufus]

Hi DTS - there's a couple of maps winging their way via email, including one of the hillforts. I'd like to hear how they play for you (and of course they'd be good for any scenario up to & including Roman era )

I had a few pints of R&R last night, the main reason the new clifftop one didn't happen

[axel]

Hi mate
pics are great mate really great

[macsen rufus]

Good news everybody!

I decided it was time to draw a line, and call progress so far the "final beta", so I have made a little install pack, copied it back into a new copy of XL, and lo and behold, after three of four CTDs related to missing files, I finally had a second working copy of my beta. Which means I CAN RELEASE THE INSTALL PACK

All I need to do now is find a way to get it out. Even as a ZIP file it's 250Mb! I don't think any of my sites have that much spare room - I did consider "hiding" it in one of my work's websites, but again, not enough space

So it looks like I need to get it on to 3D or similar, but I can't do that til I copy it to CD to bring into work with me. So all being well it will be available tomorrow.

More later - for now I have to sort out why my anti-virus software is saying its own core DLL is a virus....

[western]

Hi Macsen
That's great news. Can't wait to try it.

[macsen rufus]

EDIT: Yippee! It works. THE BETA INSTALL WILL BE ONLINE TOMORROW!

[axel]

Woooowy i gonna get it

[axel]

Happy Birthday Marcus

[dimitrios the samian]

Awesome !!!! MTW lives on .......... & with a Rome Mod on its way as well its going to bring a lot of Rome boys back to MTW ... Ok talk to you soon Macsen re-beta-testing ,, cheers ,, DTS

[macsen rufus]

It's uploading now - 249Mb of zipped file! Another couple of hours to go. Hope you're not on dial-up

And here it is! Don't all rush at once



LINKS TO BETAs now disabled - get the current version here

[western]

Hi Macsen

Finally got it downloaded and it plays and looks great. I did about 40 years as the Assyrians and spotted no bugs. Obviously there is a dead page coords issue - no bodies. Otherwise, I'm just missing a steppe faction to threaten Assyria from the north. The Balts have now expanded to Georgia and are fulfilling that function, which is novel!

This is a great start and I hope you are encouraged to go on to the later periods - looks to me like the Mod is basically there and the rest is more gain for less pain.

[macsen rufus]

Yay! Glad the download works okay, that's great news. Lucky to find that hosting site, most of them will not allow files of that sort of size, and this one gives you 250Mb max file size (my zip was 248.9Mb )

Ah, yes, the deadpage -- I knew there was another "known issue" I should have included in the readme file. It's one I've put to one side for now, on the grounds that I expect more units to go into the mod yet, so rather than keep updating deadpage coords, I'll do the whole lot in one fell swoop. For now the Bronze Age has uncharacteristically self-tidying battlefields

The other one you will notice is that the CASTLE and CITADEL map pieces are the old MTW ones, not the HTW ones, so the castle flags don't line up properly. If you have HTW simply copy across two buf files from your HTW install: campmap/pieces/buildings/castle.buf & citadel.buf (NOT the ones from the Hellenic folder) and that will fix it. Meanwhile I've started on a patch, and this is already in there.

I agree about the steppes, that's why Khazar is so well built up (ready to make Cimmerian cavalry if the rebels ever get any money). I notice the Balts are doing quite well in my game - I decided to just sit back and play it through for a while rather than concentrating on bug fixing etc for a change. At first it was the Thracians who used to steamroll the steppes, but the Balts are at it quite well in this campaign. At the other end of the continent it's the Iberocelts who are prospering.

I'm playing as Alisya, and have most of the Mediterranean trade routes tied up, and a thriving little empire that covers all the islands and is pushing up through Italy to the Alps. I think I need to "homeland" the Greek units, as they're a bit too tough and too widely available.

I still have my doubts about the Assyrian chariots, as I've just used the Persian Scythed Chariot model from HTW, and I guess they should really be the same as the Hittite & Egyptian style.

[dimitrios the samian]

Oooh shit !!!! damn dial up @#!%* up again !!

[macsen rufus]

Hi Dimitiros,

if you're struggling, I'll post it up again in a few parts. Links later!

[axel]

Hi mate
I downloaded it but its 5.6 kb it take me not even a second to download??? is this OK??

[macsen rufus]

Hi Axel - sounds like something's wrong - it's quarter of a gigabyte, so should take half an hour or so even on ADSL! Check the size of the file, should be 243MB.

I just tried it, and my share of the work's bandwidth is about 92kB/s today, and it's telling me it should take about 45mins.

I'm now uploading it all in four smaller zip files to make slow connections easier (as each one is available I'll activate the links below):

Part 1: Main folder (474kb)
Part 2: Battle (116Mb)
Part 3: Campmap (45Mb)
Part 4: Textures (87Mb)

These are folders in the main TW directory as before.

[dimitrios the samian]

Good news !! Im almost 20% and counting down ..... hopefully another good nite will see me up around half way ,, DTS ,,

[macsen rufus]

10 downloads so far, don't know if this includes failed attempts and my tests cancelled halfway through (or Dimitrios doing it in shifts ... )

Anyway, all the smaller pieces are up now, so if anyone wants to do it piecemeal that's possible, too, cheers all!

[western]

Hi Macsen

I think this mod is rather hidden away. You'd have to be pretty hard core http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/images...embarassed.gif to be browsing the largely defunct HTW site and happen across it. Maybe there just aren't that many MTW1 fans out there now - but I doubt it.

I know it's still a beta but would you have any objection to me giving it a puff in the main forum so that people know it is live and know to go to HTW and take a look? The work deserves it - and I'm sure there are more people who would get a kick from playing it/chipping in ideas and assistance.