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Thread: Carthaginian Sacred Band

  1. #1
    Controversial Modder Member Zarax's Avatar
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    Default Carthaginian Sacred Band

    I have a small question about this (great) unit...

    Since all liby-phoenician and phoeni units are represented in hoplite style gear and tactics, I was wondering what are the criteria that made EB implement the sacred band as pike phalanx, also considering that the elite african pikemen are quite similar in role and performance.
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  2. #2
    Controversial Modder Member Zarax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Carthaginian Sacred Band

    I'm sorry, I don't mean to start a flame or question anything, I just would really like to hear the team's reasons for this kind of implementation, if for some reason you cannot discuss about this I apologize.
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    Member Member King Agatholes of Syracuse's Avatar
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    Default Re: Carthaginian Sacred Band

    From what I know there were two sacred bands: cavalry and hoplites. The band of Astarte was a heavy cavalry unit operating in the Hellenic style while the band of Baal were phalanx type unit. Although it seems the phalanx were wiped out quite early in Carthage's history while the cavalry fought on for a least 17 years under Hannibal's command while loosing very few men.

  4. #4
    Controversial Modder Member Zarax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Carthaginian Sacred Band

    Yes, I know about the two sacred bands, I'm just referring to the infantry one and their representation as macedonian-like phalanx rather than greek style one...
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  5. #5
    Member Member HFox's Avatar
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    Default Re: Carthaginian Sacred Band

    Hi

    They didn't use the pike, this was historically inaccurate. They all used the northern african giant riccocco oboe in A#, great sound but very little use in the centre of a battle. Its elongated shape, some reconstructions put it at nearly fourteen foot in length, gave rise to observers mistaking them for a traditional pike phalanx bearing in mind the close harmony formations they kept as a band. Distainful of the jibes from their mounted brethren then went into battle blithely unaware of this short coming.......hence their short lived but much enjoyed, if only for the first few bars of epic unfinished battle song symphony "Carthage, my home, my life, my music, my aargh...", use on the battle field.

  6. #6
    Controversial Modder Member Zarax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Carthaginian Sacred Band

    Very original, however I was looking for something more than a sarcastic answer...
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  7. #7
    Sovereign Oppressor Member TIE Fighter Shooter Champion, Bugz Champion, Reactor Champion, Starcastle Champion, Turkey Shoot Champion, Juggler Champion Kralizec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Carthaginian Sacred Band

    I recall that the Liby-Phoenicians as well as the citizen militia unit were also using the old RTW hoplite phalanx (3 spearpoints) in 0.74 and even in 0.8. In 0.81 they were converted, I guess that the Sacred Band was also scheduled for this kind of make-over, but that it didn't make it before the 0.81 release.

  8. #8
    Controversial Modder Member Zarax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Carthaginian Sacred Band

    I guess you may be right, would really like an answer from a team member, not for nitpicking purposes but because I'm taking EB as example to push more historical accuracy into XGM...
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  9. #9
    ειδωλον Senior Member Teleklos Archelaou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Carthaginian Sacred Band

    There have been heated discussions here on why some carthie units have pikes, but we take the position that some of their soldiers did (in part due to a number of pikes found in a temple deposit I believe). I remember the lead RTR historian took the position that they did not. It's laying around here somewhere, possibly locked. We're talking a year or maybe two years almost ago though.

  10. #10
    Member Member HFox's Avatar
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    Default Re: Carthaginian Sacred Band

    Nothing personal intended....i just had this imagery of a marching band in my head.....

  11. #11
    Controversial Modder Member Zarax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Carthaginian Sacred Band

    Quote Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou
    There have been heated discussions here on why some carthie units have pikes, but we take the position that some of their soldiers did (in part due to a number of pikes found in a temple deposit I believe). I remember the lead RTR historian took the position that they did not. It's laying around here somewhere, possibly locked. We're talking a year or maybe two years almost ago though.
    Well, in XGM we decided to give phalangites to carthage, but only low quality levies as the sources I checked (Delbruck) seemed to point that their pikes fared quite poorly in most occasions and the heavy african/carthaginian infantry was geared towards the old hoplite style so that we made our carthaginian sacred band as elite hoplites.

    On a side note, I've seen bruttian infantry mentioned quite often as units capable to fight in the roman style, is EB planning to implement them one day?
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  12. #12
    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Re: Carthaginian Sacred Band

    Quote Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou
    There have been heated discussions here on why some carthie units have pikes, but we take the position that some of their soldiers did (in part due to a number of pikes found in a temple deposit I believe). I remember the lead RTR historian took the position that they did not. It's laying around here somewhere, possibly locked. We're talking a year or maybe two years almost ago though.
    I think he is not referring to the Carthaginian pikemen, like Vindifarna did, but to the hoplite sacred band. It appears to be the only traditional hoplite unit that still uses phalanx formation.
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  13. #13
    Controversial Modder Member Zarax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Carthaginian Sacred Band

    Exactly, my referral was a comparison to other native/seminative units in the carthagian roster being fielded as hoplites (liby-phoenicians and carthaginian militia are the two clearest examples) while the sacred band (which one could expect as kind of traditionalistic unit) becomes a pike unit and kind of redundant with the elite african pikemen...

    Again, I'm not trying to stir a pike vs spear discussion, all I would like to know is the EB team criteria for this particular unit.
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  14. #14
    Abou's nemesis Member Krusader's Avatar
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    Default Re: Carthaginian Sacred Band

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarax
    Exactly, my referral was a comparison to other native/seminative units in the carthagian roster being fielded as hoplites (liby-phoenicians and carthaginian militia are the two clearest examples) while the sacred band (which one could expect as kind of traditionalistic unit) becomes a pike unit and kind of redundant with the elite african pikemen...

    Again, I'm not trying to stir a pike vs spear discussion, all I would like to know is the EB team criteria for this particular unit.
    Apparently a mixup occured at our portable Baal shrine and we sacrificed the Carthaginian guys, because they have been absent now.

    Maybe they left something explaining it.
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  15. #15
    Controversial Modder Member Zarax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Carthaginian Sacred Band

    Ouch, sorry that you had such an accident, I guess I'll wait until baal calms down...
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  16. #16
    Imperialist Brit Member Orb's Avatar
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    Default Re: Carthaginian Sacred Band

    Quote Originally Posted by HFox
    Hi

    They didn't use the pike, this was historically inaccurate. They all used the northern african giant riccocco oboe in A#, great sound but very little use in the centre of a battle. Its elongated shape, some reconstructions put it at nearly fourteen foot in length, gave rise to observers mistaking them for a traditional pike phalanx bearing in mind the close harmony formations they kept as a band. Distainful of the jibes from their mounted brethren then went into battle blithely unaware of this short coming.......hence their short lived but much enjoyed, if only for the first few bars of epic unfinished battle song symphony "Carthage, my home, my life, my music, my aargh...", use on the battle field.




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  17. #17
    Sanity is for the weak! Member Fondor_Yards's Avatar
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    Default Re: Carthaginian Sacred Band

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarax
    On a side note, I've seen bruttian infantry mentioned quite often as units capable to fight in the roman style, is EB planning to implement them one day?
    Yea I was wondering the same thing. I asked that before, since they posted this skin up, but dunno if I got an answer.
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  18. #18
    Speaker of Truth Moderator Moros's Avatar
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    Default Re: Carthaginian Sacred Band

    skin+model were lost, I believe. However chances are high that at least one bruttian unit will be made.

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