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Thread: Faction Thread 2: Vampire Counts

  1. #1

    Default Faction Thread 2: Vampire Counts

    Some tricky units here, since I am not 100% how best to handle ethereals. It may just be a case of giving htem a very high defence and no hit-points to speak of ... or it may just be too difficult to adapt things to use them effectively. time and playtesting will tell here!

    Units:

    1) Zombies

    2) Skeletons

    3) Skeleton Warriors

    4) Grave Guard

    5) Wights

    6) Ghouls

    7) Spirit Host ( issue as above )

    8) Wraiths ( issue as above )

    9) Dire Wolves

    10) Nightmares and skeleton horses for mounts

    11) Blood Dragons ( various )

    Generals would be either Vampire single models or Necromancers
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Faction Thread 2: Vampire Counts

    Right, a few points on this one.

    Zombies and ghouls are fine.

    I presume by warriors you mean skeletons with spears, and normal ones with swords/axes/whatever. Also good. I’d advise you include archers as well. Although they aren’t in the main army list, they are included in the army book, as a specific blood dragon army unit. I’m sure, for sake of balance and variation if nothing else, you could include them. They would have to be rubbish though. I mean, really poor quality troops, barely able to hit at ten foot, let alone normal shooting range.

    Wrights and Grave Guard… well Grave Guard are wrights. They’re simply one type of unit of them. You could also split Grave Guard into two types if you wish; sword and shield (basic), or a halberd (elite?), as they use both. Black Knights, the other non-character variety of wright, are obviously the heavy cavalry here. Only the one type of them possible I think, though there are slight grounds in which you could split them into 'heavy cavalry' and 'very heavy cavalry' branches.

    For ethereal units… not sure how you could do them. Very high defence could work, I guess, but it doesn’t really do them justice. Either way, is there a method of creating morale damage from a unit’s presence? I think there was in RTW, but not sure about this one. Either way, they should, as in the TT version they cause terror.

    My Blood Dragons, do you mean the type of vampire? Surely units of vampires, considering even a weak vampire is a powerful hero, are a bit much? If this isn’t what you mean, please explain, because I’m not on the right page.

  3. #3
    is not a senior Member Meneldil's Avatar
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    Default Re : Faction Thread 2: Vampire Counts

    Hum, if you're planning to have Skeletons, Skeleton warriors and Grave guards, may I propose you to use those models as the Warriors, and those as the Grave Guards.

    Simply because the first ones (current grave guards figures) really look like dead soldiers (actually, dead bretonnians knights), while the old Wight figures (second pic) have more of a grave guards "feeling". They're not simply dead soldiers raised to serve a new lord, but they have their own (undead-ish) equipement.
    That would mean getting rid of the Wight unit, but from what I understood, Wight describe all kinds of not-totally-braindead-skeleton (and thus, include Grave Guards and Black Knights, aswell as the now discontinued Skeleton characters)

    Overall, I think leaving out non- Blood Dragon Vampires themselves is a pity. I don't know what is the smallest unit size possible in MTW2, but wouldn't it be possible to have squads of like, 4 or 8 Lamhian, Strigoi or Nercrach vampires ? Yeah, that would be overpowered, but one could say they're newly born vampires, and give them a huge upkeep.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Faction Thread 2: Vampire Counts

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob the Spork
    Also good. I’d advise you include archers as well. Although they aren’t in the main army list, they are included in the army book, as a specific blood dragon army unit. I’m sure, for sake of balance and variation if nothing else, you could include them. They would have to be rubbish though. I mean, really poor quality troops, barely able to hit at ten foot, let alone normal shooting range.
    I don't think you can change the range of the archers, though you can reduce the number of arrows they have and give them poor moral.

    For ethereal units… not sure how you could do them. Very high defence could work, I guess, but it doesn’t really do them justice. Either way, is there a method of creating morale damage from a unit’s presence? I think there was in RTW, but not sure about this one. Either way, they should, as in the TT version they cause terror.
    For the Wights you could increase their hit points to make them harder to kill (they would need to take more damage before they died). It is possible to make units that can fighten infantry and / or mounted units.
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  5. #5

    Default Re: Faction Thread 2: Vampire Counts

    Mounts have a 'fear' effect ... never tried it with footsoldier! anothe rtest fo rthe weekend!!!!
    Careless Orc Costs Lives!

  6. #6

    Default Re: Faction Thread 2: Vampire Counts

    Theres lots of units that cause fear isnt there?

  7. #7

    Default Re: Faction Thread 2: Vampire Counts

    In RTW it was possible to give any unit fear-causing ability, I´m not sure about M2TW, though.
    But if you´re refering to "Vampire Counts", does that mean you´ll try and include all of the bloodlines, or will you emphazise the Carstein line? If the former, you´d probably need more factions in the Vampire "culture". However, I wouldn´t know how to simulate the Strigoi, Blood Dragons and Necrarchs adequately on a campaign map, they don´t hold territories, so the best I could imagine woud be rebel units.

  8. #8
    Bringer of the End Times Member alexader's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction Thread 2: Vampire Counts

    Bwian,how will be the zombies?i think it would be best to make themin man size or from other races with ripped clothing and with full of blood(and also ripped faces).how will they be used in the game and how will they kill the enemy,i mean by eating him?will you include in the vampire counts the rule from the warhammer that if they are far away from the necromancer,they cannot be control?it is possible?
    "VAE VICTUS"

  9. #9

    Default Re: Faction Thread 2: Vampire Counts

    Zombies could fight with the weapons they had when they were alive, for example peasants would have crude weapons.

    Though a unit can be made to run amok this will occur regardless of how close they are to their necromancer, so out of control zombies can be difficult to code.

    Also how will this faction function. Since the Tomb Kings use soldiers made from the preserved dead they only have low levels of soldiers but since Vampire Counts use undead that are far more available they should have greater numbers. A possible handicap is to only allow this faction to start with weak undead units, with strong units available at the end of the tech tree (no middle level units). This would encourage early attrition until this faction has worked its way up the tech-tree.
    Last edited by uanime5; 05-02-2007 at 19:12.
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  10. #10
    Annoying Warhammer know-it-all Member DrZoidberg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction Thread 2: Vampire Counts

    We can play around with the tech tree as much as we want. The source books have no info at all on the technology they use to raise the dead. Or even how it works. We could have small squads early and larger later. We could also have their most elite units only available through guild houses. To keep down their number.

    In Warhammer the undead army is charecterised by being a mix of total and complete crap and very strong elite units. By making skeletons and zombies easily available everywhere and making elite units hard to produce we can keep that dynamic. It's easy to do with the TW tech-tree and buildings.
    Sorry you must have been boring. -Dr Zoidberg

  11. #11

    Default Re: Faction Thread 2: Vampire Counts

    They raise the dead using necromancy, which is a magic art the vampires have a near instinctive control over. It stems from death magic, so whenever the wind of death is strong, so is necromancy. Although only more powerful vampires can raise large amounts of the undead, as in units or armies (maybe only allow places with a general to recruit, if possible), the ones that are powerful can reanimate corpses basically at will, and as many as are available in an area. In the warhammer world, any given place is likely to have plenty of skeletons, even zombies, available.

    What are these ‘source books’ that everyone keeps mentioning?

  12. #12

    Default Re: Faction Thread 2: Vampire Counts

    The army books I guess, there a bit lacking in info though. Theres pretty good source books in the WFRP 2nd edition, they only cover a few area though.

  13. #13
    Annoying Warhammer know-it-all Member DrZoidberg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction Thread 2: Vampire Counts

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob the Spork
    What are these ‘source books’ that everyone keeps mentioning?
    Yeah, Army books. I've got them all. Even some of the older ones. It was 15 years ago I played any of this so I'm having great fun looking through the books again. Even though, back in the day I played mostly WH40K and WHFRP. Anyhoo.

    Sorry you must have been boring. -Dr Zoidberg

  14. #14

    Default Re: Faction Thread 2: Vampire Counts

    That's strange. You see, a second ago someone said there wasn't anything about how the raised the dead in them, yet the army book, which I also have, quite clearly explains that it is the power of necromancy, and where this magic originated from. So unless people are tearing out some of their pages, that doesn't make sense.

  15. #15
    Annoying Warhammer know-it-all Member DrZoidberg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction Thread 2: Vampire Counts

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob the Spork
    That's strange. You see, a second ago someone said there wasn't anything about how the raised the dead in them, yet the army book, which I also have, quite clearly explains that it is the power of necromancy, and where this magic originated from. So unless people are tearing out some of their pages, that doesn't make sense.
    I suggest we focus on helping each other fill the gaps or fix errors and save on the smart comments aimed at making fellow modders look dumb.

    I checked the books again. It really doesn't say how they do it. Only that they can do it. It says nothing of buildings, artifacts, books, discoveries or preparations needed. All I could find was fragments of dead raising spells. So I do think it's up to us to decide which buildings are required.

    If somebody has read the Warhammer fiction book "Necromancer", it might give us some insights :)
    Sorry you must have been boring. -Dr Zoidberg

  16. #16

    Default Re: Faction Thread 2: Vampire Counts

    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg
    I suggest we focus on helping each other fill the gaps or fix errors and save on the smart comments aimed at making fellow modders look dumb.

    I checked the books again. It really doesn't say how they do it. Only that they can do it. It says nothing of buildings, artifacts, books, discoveries or preparations needed. All I could find was fragments of dead raising spells. So I do think it's up to us to decide which buildings are required.

    If somebody has read the Warhammer fiction book "Necromancer", it might give us some insights :)
    Ha funny co-incidence i'm reading that book now.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Faction Thread 2: Vampire Counts

    To be honest ... units like skeletons and zombies should, quite possibly, be considered to be 'mercenary' units recruitable by the leaders. This way, the troops can be 'raised' without the need for any kind of building. Only a faction 'general' would be able to raise them. If we can tie their availability to a hidden resource ( shallow graves? ) then that gives us all we need.

    Incidentally....having been watching Shaun of the Dead again, I have been inspired to start work on a zombie model
    Careless Orc Costs Lives!

  18. #18

    Default Re: Faction Thread 2: Vampire Counts

    Could we give a General a Necromancer trait so that they could recruit the undead (traits are not my speciality)?
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  19. #19

    Default Re: Faction Thread 2: Vampire Counts

    They should all have the ability to raise undead troops. They are the 'peasants' and the basic levy troops for the faction. Special things may be needed to raise the more potent forces.... but not the cannon fodder....which, I suppose was cannon fodder before it was raised as cannon fodder .... poor devils. Sometimes life's a bitch
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  20. #20
    Shaidar Haran Senior Member SAM Site Champion Myrddraal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction Thread 2: Vampire Counts

    I think Mercs sound like a good way to go for undead factions, have 0 or minimal population in their home countries, have their income come from special buildings etc. Is there a way to restrict mercs to one faction, or are they always available to all?

    Perhaps a script could be used to add mercs to undead 'home' regions when an undead faction leader is present. Then the act of hiring them would be the act of raising them. The main problem would be other factions raising armies of zombies which weren't recruited by the undead factions...

  21. #21

    Default Re: Faction Thread 2: Vampire Counts

    What Myrddraal said is possible and does occur in M2TW, for example the Welsh Spearmen can only be recruited by the English in England. This is because the export_descr_unit.txt can restrict which factions can recruit which units.
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  22. #22

    Default Re: Faction Thread 2: Vampire Counts

    Mercs can be limited by religion at least. Having a population of 0 though doesnt neccessarily mean you cant produce troops, recruitment doesnt decrease the population in mtw2. Theres other factors involved here though, giving them no populaion would limit income and you'd never be able to upgrade your cities, you'd need to balance the economy which would get thrown out as soon as they took a city with some population.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Faction Thread 2: Vampire Counts

    You don't need to limit the population to zero... the idea of having Vampire Counts recruiting base units as mercs would make them able to raise armies in a different way. The other 'core' units would still be recruitable in the cities, but they would require special bildings or upgraded cities. You can't restrict the growth as such, since this would prevent expansion.

    I saw this more as a way of making the recruitment for this faction a little different and unusual.
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  24. #24

    Default Re: Faction Thread 2: Vampire Counts

    I recently started a Russian Grand Campaign, and noticed that you can loosley interpret the characters' accents as a sort of sly transylvanian. I havn't tried many other factions, but does anyone else think this would be a good voice set for the Vampire Counts?

  25. #25
    Annoying Warhammer know-it-all Member DrZoidberg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction Thread 2: Vampire Counts

    Quote Originally Posted by Jargon
    I recently started a Russian Grand Campaign, and noticed that you can loosley interpret the characters' accents as a sort of sly transylvanian. I havn't tried many other factions, but does anyone else think this would be a good voice set for the Vampire Counts?
    Unless we've got some kick-ass voice actors on board, I'm assuming that the standard MTW2 are staying. I don't know of any other Warhammer computer game made that we can steal fitting sounds from.
    Sorry you must have been boring. -Dr Zoidberg

  26. #26

    Default Re: Faction Thread 2: Vampire Counts

    Voices will initially be the stock ones. If we can find people abtle and willing to record new ones, then I would love to have custom sounds.

    This is something to think about for future releases.

    Using someone elses sounds form a commercial game is a definite no. It is a breach of copyright, and if GW or the owner of the copyright material took offence, we would find ourselves closed down very quickly.

    GamesWorkshop is very generous in it's policy towards use of it's IP for mods like ours, and I respect that. Use of material copyrighted by companies who had licensed to use GW's IP for a commercial game are far less likely to be forgiving! Safest to avoid any risk and do our own, or use the ones that shiiped with MTW2.
    Careless Orc Costs Lives!

  27. #27

    Default Re: Faction Thread 2: Vampire Counts

    Nobody will be stealing anything from any game.

  28. #28
    Annoying Warhammer know-it-all Member DrZoidberg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction Thread 2: Vampire Counts

    I'm writing the unit descriptions for the Vampire counts and doing some research. There are distinct blood lines of vampires which all are completely different and above all they don't fight or even get along together, (except for the Blood Dragons occasionally). And they all count as Vampire Count armies.

    I think we should decide which of the blood lines to make a faction for and stick to it. We've got the Von Carsteins, Nechrarchs, Blood Dragons, Strigoi and Lhamians.

    All of them use the same kind of units.

    Nechrarchs aren't really into empire building, they just want to kill everything living, so they aren't very suitable for a faction.

    The Strigoi are insane creatures living in gutters and deep forrest with ghoul followers. Not really empire builders either.

    Blood Dragons are only into it for the fighting. No empire either.

    Next we've got Lhamians and Von Carsteins who both very much are into empire building and both would be very suitable for factions. Also they have living human subjects which makes them all the more suitable for the MTW2 engine. But Lhamians are from Khemri and will have quite a similar look to them as the Tomb Kings. We really don't need two factions that look the same.

    I suggest that we only use the Von Carsteins as the vampire faction and have the Blood Dragons as an expensive mercenary unit that they can occasionally reqruit.

    If we want the Lhamian vampire faction I suggest puting them in some future release, or replacing the Tomb Kings with them all together, and have the Tomb Kings as horde, (but that's allready been voted down ).
    Sorry you must have been boring. -Dr Zoidberg

  29. #29

    Default Re: Faction Thread 2: Vampire Counts

    The Lhamians also do not fit on the map. There has been much juggling and thought about the map and what parts we can fit onto it, and Lhamian territory does not fit.

    Additionally...there is no need to worry about whether a faction has human subjects ... it's not an issue.

    Lastly ... as has already been stated ... the Tomb Kings are in. They are also STAYING in. They have a unique look, make an attractive spectacle, and offer some interesting challenges. They also have a significant proportion of their units complete and in game, and with what I know can be done with skeleton/animation routines, we can also do all the exotic units they need too.

    On the faction front, I think you have pretty much covered the essentials there.
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  30. #30
    Annoying Warhammer know-it-all Member DrZoidberg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faction Thread 2: Vampire Counts

    Quote Originally Posted by Bwian
    The Lhamians also do not fit on the map. There has been much juggling and thought about the map and what parts we can fit onto it, and Lhamian territory does not fit.
    Lhamian vampires do not live in Lhamia any longer. They where expeled and queen Nefarata and her court resetled in Silver Pinnacle in the Worlds Edge mountains. She has built herself a palace and from there she sends out spies and vampire agents to infiltrate the courts of the Old World plotting her return. She has a vast army of Zombies that she uses for protection and all her generals are hot chicks. It's all on pages 6 and 7 in the Vampire Counts army book.

    Unless the Worlds Edge mountains have been bumped from the map which would be a shame :) I maintain that they would work great as a seperate faction. If we want and need them that is. Just because we can use something doesn't mean we should. Off-course.

    But I got the message. Lhamians will have to wait and the von Carsteins are included.

    I've got a question. Shouldn't we have vampires as units? They're not in the army list now, but I think they should be. We can have them as super elite and one of those units with only 20 men in them. Since we are including the Blood Dragons units, it makes no sense not to include the regular von Carstein blood line vampires. In Warhammer Battle the vampires thralls do plenty of fighting. Not only the vampire lords.

    Another unit which are central to the vampire counts are the necromancers that's been omitted. Could it be possible to make then use some sort of invisible cannon and make the projectile fired to be a huge skull or something. It's pretty much what they do.
    Sorry you must have been boring. -Dr Zoidberg

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