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Thread: MTW Pocket Mod: Units, Buildings and Unit Stats

  1. #91

    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod

    Quote Originally Posted by Belisario
    Another idea

    Revise the look of the Ghulam Bodyguards:

    -EarlyGhulamBGs: remove the kite shield and give them the wooden round shield which remains unused in the MailHCav.bif

    -HighGhulamBGs: don't need changes, they have a nice Muslim look

    -LateGhulamBGs: really need a urgent change, a Muslim cavalryman (and horse) with a Gothic armour?! I propose the same look of the HighGhulamBGs but with mail horse armour (the same horse armour of the Khwarazmians or the Kataphraktoi; I don't remember its bif's name). The golden round shield of the Faris also would be nice. And for the Unit Icons you could use the Khwarazmians icons.
    Superb ideas, I agree completely.
    Quote Originally Posted by Belisario
    PD: The correct spelling of archers in Greek is Toxotai.
    Thanks for spotting that one.

  2. #92
    Camel Lord Senior Member Capture The Flag Champion Martok's Avatar
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    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod

    Quote Originally Posted by Caravel
    Some ideas from another thread and some notes:

    The Grand Mosque as the Prerequisite for jihads.

    Upping the cost and build times of jihads

    The ribat used as a prerequisite for "fanatical" troops such as the Nizari Fedayeen, Nizari Foot Soldiers and Ghazi Infantry instead of the Mosque and Grand Mosque. Other dependencies adjusted accordingly.

    The Royal Court removed from Muslim factions (redundant).

    Increasing the build time and cost for crusades.

    Also the chapter house to form the prerequisite for knightly orders such as the Teutonics, Templars, Hospitallers, Santiago and Order foot soldiers in provinces where the orders were based historically.

    Units such as the order knights, foot soldiers and fanatics modded to determine how likely they are to appear in crusades, to give slightly stronger crusades.
    Of course I support you on these changes, although again I urge caution with upping the costs of Jihads -- we don't want to overdo it! That said, the rest sounds splendid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caravel
    Removing the unique status of the Grand Mosques and Cathedrals. As the GM will no longer be a prerequisite for either the Military Academy or the Nizari Foot Soldiers, it would make sense to allow multiples to be built. The cost and build time could also be slightly reduced. The Cathedral could also be modded in this way.
    I concur with removing their unique status. I'm not sure about reducing their costs/build times, however. Not that they're cheap or anything, but I do think they should be kept expensive enough so that one isn't tempted to spam them in every available province.
    Last edited by Martok; 01-22-2007 at 22:42.
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  3. #93

    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod

    Quote Originally Posted by Martok
    Of course I support you on these changes, although again I urge caution with upping the costs of Jihads -- we don't want to overdo it! That said, the rest sounds splendid.
    Upping the costs of jihads would only be a small increase. The main increase I want is in the build time. That should be about 4 years. I want to ensure that a Jihad cannot be used as a quick way to break a short siege. Crusades would have to be about 6 years build time, I'm thinking. Anything more than that would effect the AI taking advantage of "the pope has called for a crusade against" offers, as by the time it had built the crusade and got going, the situation may have changed entirely.
    Quote Originally Posted by Martok
    I concur with removing their unique status. I'm not sure about reducing their costs/build times, however. Not that they're cheap or anything, but I do think they should be kept expensive enough so that one isn't tempted to spam them in every available province.
    I was thinking of trimming off only 2 years. I haven't decided on the cost yet, I may just leave them as they are. I'm thinking strongly that having them as non unique is bonus enough, one might say that making them more expensive and take longer to build would be more reasonable, and more historical.
    Last edited by caravel; 01-23-2007 at 10:18.

  4. #94

    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod

    About jihads: could their "base units" be switched as well? I mean, crusades get crusader knights, which makes sense. Whereas jihads start with... lots of siege weapons?

    Methinks they should start with Ghazi fanatical troops and the like. Maybe ghulam cavalry, or something
    Iä Cthulhu!

  5. #95

    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod

    I have been looking into this. Ghazis, Fedayeen and Nizaris are all units I'd like to see making up the bulk of a jihad, not siege equipment archers* and peasants.

    Another possibility I've been looking into is another "muslim fanatic" mujahidin unit possibly based on the muslim peasants unit, which at present only appears in jihads and revolts. Peasants have a place in feudal european society where they may appear as part of a revolt or may join a crusade in large numbers, eager for some looting. In muslim society there would not be this kind of peasant presence, due to that society not really being a wholly peasant farming society and due to religious and cultural differences. The general masses of the mujahidin would have been equipped with rudimentary weaponry, not hay forks.

    The Western European Archer unit is also completely wrong for the Muslims and Byzantines, one solution would be homelands, though this would be a very long list of provinces covering much of Europe and would probably cause a crash, as it has in the past.

    Another possibility would be to utilise the Desert Archers, as universal archers for all of the muslim factions, because they are much more true, as regards the type of bow and apparel, to those factions. This way the Catholics, Russians and Novgorods would have the European archers, the Byzantines would have their own Toxotai, and the Almohads and Egyptians would have exclusively the Desert Archer, with the vanilla MTW homelands removed so that it could be trained anywhere on the map. For the Turks I would simply use the Turcoman Foot soldier, which are almost similar to Desert Archers, the main difference being, IIRC, armour. For such an average unit (I'm not giving them a slating, here. They are easily one of my favourite units) as far as stats go, they require alot of teching up. Depriving the Turks of both Desert Archers and Archers would leave them with nothing whatsoever in the way of hybrid units or archers. The Futuwwa are obtainable but take some more teching up and have already been restricted to only Syria (their proper place), and the Janissaries and Ottoman Infantry won't be along until the late era. This is why the Turcoman Foot need to take place of the basic Turkish archer unit for the early era. They should be available with only the bowyer instead of the bowers guild which is far too steep a requirement.

    Another thing that needs looking at is dismounts. Some units can only dismount before sieges. I feel that heavy knights need to be restricted from dismounting before battle, as it took a crane to get them into the saddle in the first place. Other types of moderately and lightly armoured, as well as unarmoured cavalry should probably always be able to dismount. This adds a bit to the tactical decisions and positioning before a battle. Dismount or not?
    Last edited by caravel; 02-26-2007 at 13:13.

  6. #96

    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod

    Perhaps desert archers could get a bonus in the appropriate terrain and normal archers a bonus in temperate terrain so that both become a unit more valuable in their home areas (which is probably realistic). At the moment I can see no reason to build non-desert archers anyway - I only get them through Jihads.
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  7. #97

    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod

    Unfortunately, I'm almost 90% certain that can't be done. Bedoiun camels fight at a penalty in lush environments, and I'm sure that's hardcoded, and something to do with the camel mount type. What you say is true, no one would train vanilla archers if you've got Desert Archers. Turcoman Foot Soldiers are a better armoured, more defensive version of desert archers with 1 point less honour, apart from that they are very similar with reagards to melee and charge. Turcoman Foot cost more to build though their support costs are lower. Both can run and charge faster than Vanilla Archers.

    I would improve the stats of Desert Archers to bring them slightly more in line. I would give them a 1 point morale bonus (previously 0), and raise their melee bonus to 0 (from -1).
    Last edited by caravel; 01-23-2007 at 17:51.

  8. #98
    Member Member Geezer57's Avatar
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    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod

    Quote Originally Posted by Caravel
    Another thing that needs looking at is dismounts. Some units can only dismount before sieges. I feel that heavy knights need to be restricted from dismounting before battle, as it took a crane to get them into the saddle in the first place. Other types of moderately and lightly armoured, as well as unarmoured cavalry should probably always be able to dismount. This adds a bit to the tactical decisions and positioning before a battle. Dismount or not?
    You must be mistaking jousting armor (which was indeed too heavy for normal mobility) for battle armor. No one in his right mind would go into combat wearing panoply so heavy they couldn't get up from a fall, or get back up on a horse.

    A good friend of mine makes full suits of armor for re-enactors, SCA members, etc. His personal full plate regalia (made from heavier than normal gauge material, to hold up under multiple seasons of live-steel demonstrations) weights 90 lbs. He does repeated cartwheels / backflips in the course of his act, and has no trouble mounting a horse unassisted.

    A well-designed suit of combat armor has the weight distributed evenly over the body, and doesn't encumber any more than obesity would. Do you think overweight people (provided they're otherwise in good shape) can't get up on a horse? At worst mounting/dismounting might benefit from having an assistant (i.e., a Page) around - but for game purposes, I wouldn't limit Knights from fighting afoot.
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  9. #99

    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod

    Very good points Geezer57, and I'm thinking that you're right of course. I would probably be a good idea to let all mounted units dismount before battle. I've never seen any reason why not, and it does beat making fuedal foot knights and chivalric foot knights as trainable units as others have done.

  10. #100
    Member Member Geezer57's Avatar
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    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod

    I'm just glad you're doing this mod - I'm looking forward to spending quite a bit of time with it!

    FYI, here's a link to some the the videos with my friend's "armored antics": https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...&search=Search

    They're pretty active for carrying all that metal around.
    My father's sole piece of political advice: "Son, politicians are like underwear - to keep them clean, you've got to change them often."

  11. #101
    Camel Lord Senior Member Capture The Flag Champion Martok's Avatar
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    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod

    Quote Originally Posted by Caravel
    Upping the costs of jihads would only be a small increase. The main increase I want is in the build time. That should be about 4 years. I want to ensure that a Jihad cannot be used as a quick way to break a short siege. Crusades would have to be about 6 years build time, I'm thinking. Anything more than that would effect the AI taking advantage of "the pope has called for a crusade against" offers, as by the time it had built the crusade and got going, the situation may have changed entirely.
    Ah, I see. Yeah, I think I like that. In addition to the points you've just made, it would also help cut down on the temptation to have mutiple Crusade/Jihad markers "on standby", ready to be unleashed at a moment's notice. (Not that *I've* ever done that.... [whistles innocently])

    Quote Originally Posted by Caravel
    I'm thinking strongly that having them as non unique is bonus enough, one might say that making them more expensive and take longer to build would be more reasonable, and more historical.
    That's actually what I was thinking. Cathedrals and Grand Mosques provide enough of a bonus to their respective provinces that I don't think it would be necessary to reduce their cost/build times -- not if we're removing their unique status, anyway. I agree it would be far more realistic if their build times were longer, but I also agree that simply wouldn't be practical (or more importantly, fun).

    In regards to the ideas for the archers (Europeans, Muslims, and Byz each get their own), I definitely like it. I have a question, however: Did the Novs/Russians really have more traditional European archers? While I'm definitely not an expert on their military traditions, I would've thought their missile units would be closer to those of the steppe peoples (who usually used the compound bow). Am I completely off-base in thinking this?
    Last edited by Martok; 01-24-2007 at 00:41.
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  12. #102
    Believer of Murphy's Law Member Sensei Warrior's Avatar
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    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod

    Not that my opinion will be the clincher here, but I'm in agreement with Geezer on this one. I remember reading a book about armour, and it had a bit about a knights training. One part said that a knight in full armour was able to leap from the ground into the saddle in one swift motion. He did something with his hands in there as well, maybe on the saddlehorn or horses hindquarters. I read it a very long time ago, as a kid fascinated on the subject of knights so the above should be taken with a grain of salt. Also the above was definately not meant as a historical hijack either. I am not a historian, I'm just giving Caravel my own take on the matter.

    I think 90lbs of gear would put a knight at the same weight as the gear that their modern day counterpart would carry.

    Not to mean it as a comparison, but in the past I would mod the Feudal Knights (I can't remember if there is more, as my current install wasn't tweaked) to dismount at any time.

    I downloaded 1.0.4about 2 seconds before you released 1.0.5 so I think I'm gonna wait a little longer before I take a crack at it. Never fear sooner or later you will be seeing some story of mine that starts out ...So I was playing the (insert faction here) TD, Expert, PocketMod when those backstabbers the (insert evil factione here) attacked... well you get the point.
    Every weapon has evolved from the same basic design, either a rock or a sharp pointy stick.

  13. #103

    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod

    Quote Originally Posted by Martok
    In regards to the ideas for the archers (Europeans, Muslims, and Byz each get their own), I definitely like it. I have a question, however: Did the Novs/Russians really have more traditional European archers? While I'm definitely not an expert on their military traditions, I would've thought their missile units would be closer to those of the steppe peoples (who usually used the compound bow). Am I completely off-base in thinking this?
    The Russians and Novgorod need a different archer infopic, the bulgarian brigand one would probably do the job, but it's just cosmetic really. I'm not entirely sure about the use of foot archers among the those factions, I'm pretty sure the mounted archers would have been much more common.

    I've just run almost every change so far for 1.0.6 . This is going to be a big one, but it's not ready yet. The only thing left to do for the changes suggested so far is to change the Ghulam Bodyguard's shields around.


    -Edit: @Sensei Warrior: I have made all cavalry dismountable.
    Last edited by caravel; 01-24-2007 at 01:32.

  14. #104
    Believer of Murphy's Law Member Sensei Warrior's Avatar
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    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod

    Quote Originally Posted by Martok
    In regards to the ideas for the archers (Europeans, Muslims, and Byz each get their own), I definitely like it. I have a question, however: Did the Novs/Russians really have more traditional European archers? While I'm definitely not an expert on their military traditions, I would've thought their missile units would be closer to those of the steppe peoples (who usually used the compound bow). Am I completely off-base in thinking this?
    Alot of steppe nomad people migrated through their territories. The Hungarians (or Magyars) improved on the design of a compound bow used by the Huns, so the idea isn't completely unrealistic.

    Caravels idea about a bulgarian brigand looking archer would fit the bill even if it was only cosmetic. The Mongolian Foot Warrior is also something similar looking. You could be evil and give them the longbow as their missile weapon, a good number of bows in that area of the world were able to pierce armour. The English just managed to get all the good press.

    Not that CA is an authority but they do give them the Vanilla Archers, so maybe an Archer type unit isn't totally off base. You could also be equally cruel and make it their only foot unit (no xbows, arbs or pavise of any kind). Just a thought.

    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by Caravel
    -Edit: @Sensei Warrior: I have made all cavalry dismountable.
    Cool. A wise decision.
    Last edited by Sensei Warrior; 01-24-2007 at 01:58.
    Every weapon has evolved from the same basic design, either a rock or a sharp pointy stick.

  15. #105

    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod

    Quote Originally Posted by Sensei Warrior
    Caravels idea about a bulgarian brigand looking archer would fit the bill even if it was only cosmetic. The Mongolian Foot Warrior is also something similar looking. You could be evil and give them the longbow as their missile weapon, a good number of bows in that area of the world were able to pierce armour. The English just managed to get all the good press.
    Renaming the brigands and using them as an archer unit for the russians, poles, hungarians and novgorod may make more sense. As they are, they're not alot of use. I'm not sure of a name as yet. The Mongol "warriors" would be fine as Steppe Archers, though I would only make them available through dismount. There isn't any real need for these as there are no real steppe factions, such as the Volga Bulgars, in the game only the mongols - the rest are all rebels - so it is probably pointless.

  16. #106

    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod

    (Methinks compound bows should be armor piercing, too -agreeing with SW)

    Was going to comment, a bug I discovered in the previous version (not the last one): The harem woman gives your princes the "incest" point.

    Another thing, about the desert archers/regular archers change: while it´s not much trouble for byzantium, it would be for the muslim factions, as they wouldn´t be able to rise horse archers outside the desert, and both Turkey and (specially) the Almohads have or can have potentially a lot of non-desert provinces. In the latter case, you can even lose all your desert provinces and survive (and flourish) keeping Spain. You´d limit almohad unit building in Spain to urban milita, spearmen, and Andalusian Militia that way.

    Another suggestion: since France does not get any unique unit barring the shared hobbilar, maybe they should get gothic knights along with Germany and Italy?
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  17. #107

    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod

    Quote Originally Posted by The Unknown Guy
    (Methinks compound bows should be armor piercing, too -agreeing with SW)
    Good point, maybe with not as long a range as the longbow though? I'll need some more input on this one.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Unknown Guy
    Was going to comment, a bug I discovered in the previous version (not the last one): The harem woman gives your princes the "incest" point.
    I know about that one. It will always be there as it's hardcoded. I can change the wording to make it a generic "improper or scandalous relationship" vice ("He is having an improper relationship with a commoner, servant, courtesan or family member" etc etc etc), but they will always get the vice.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Unknown Guy
    Another thing, about the desert archers/regular archers change: while it´s not much trouble for byzantium, it would be for the muslim factions, as they wouldn´t be able to rise horse archers outside the desert, and both Turkey and (specially) the Almohads have or can have potentially a lot of non-desert provinces. In the latter case, you can even lose all your desert provinces and survive (and flourish) keeping Spain. You´d limit almohad unit building in Spain to urban milita, spearmen, and Andalusian Militia that way.
    The vanilla horse archers can be raised in any provinces. I don't think I've set any homelands for them? They probably should be restricted to the desert near east, steppes and eastern europe though. This is one that I need to set the boundaries for. The desert archers, as I've said could be modded as trainable in any provinces. Personally I don't see it as a problem. I do think that if in some provinces where cultural differences are very defined levy spearmen and militias should be the only units available. Archers take a lot of training and cannot be obtained easily by the invader.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Unknown Guy
    Another suggestion: since France does not get any unique unit barring the shared hobbilar, maybe they should get gothic knights along with Germany and Italy?
    Well, gothic armour originated in southern germany. The Italians would have used Milanese armour, but these types of armour would have come into use in the 16th century, outside the timeframe covered by the game, so in reality they shouldn't be there at all. Still, if they are going to be there it makes sense to allow the French to train them.

  18. #108

    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod

    Quote Originally Posted by Caravel

    Well, gothic armour originated in southern germany. The Italians would have used Milanese armour, but these types of armour would have come into use in the 16th century, outside the timeframe covered by the game, so in reality they shouldn't be there at all. Still, if they are going to be there it makes sense to allow the French to train them.
    I would think some kind of unique knights unit would be more àppropriate - possibly with cheaper support or more soldiers than a traditional unit to reflect their increased access to armoured knights (rather than having better armoured knights).
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  19. #109

    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod

    Hi Caravel, these are the instructions to change the look of the Ghulam Bodyguards:

    -Early Ghulam Bodyguards; at present this unit uses a typical 12th century European kite-shaped shield like the Early Royal Knights and the Feudal Knights. You could replace this shield for a round wooden shield. It’s very simple:

    1.Go into the Textures/Men/MailHCav directory and open the EarlyRoyalGhulamKnights_S text file. Delete the number 4 and write the number 2, save the file.
    2.Go into the Textures/Men/Items/Shield4 directory and cut the EarlyRoyalGhulamKnights folder, then go into the Textures/Men/Items/Shield2 directory and paste it.
    3.Go into the Textures/Men/Items/Shield1 directory, open the ArmenianHeavyCavalry folder and copy all the text files. Return to the Textures/Men/Items/Shield2 directory, open the EarlyRoyalGhulamKnights folder and replace all the files.

    -Late Ghulam Bodyguards; from my point of view this unit need a total conversion. At present they use late European 14th century-15th century armour (both the cavalryman and the horse). My proposal would be: SMailCav for the cavalryman, EHorse for the horse, a heavy spear, and the round shield of the Faris.

    1.Go into the Textures/Men/SMailCav directory, copy and paste the HighRoyalGhulamKnights_W and the Faris_S text files, and rename them as LateRoyalGhulamKnights_W and LateRoyalGhulamKnights_S respectively.
    2.Go into the Textures/Men/ActionsPage directory, delete the LateRoyalGhulamKnights file, copy and paste the HighRoyalGhulamKnights file and rename it as LateRoyalGhulamKnights.
    3.Go into the Textures/Men/Items/Weapon4 directory, copy and paste the HighRoyalGhulamKnights folder and rename it as LateRoyalGhulamKnights.
    4.Go into the Textures/Men/Items/Shield3 directory and copy the HighRoyalGhulamKnights folder; paste it into the Textures/Men/Items/Shield4 directory and rename it as LateRoyalGhulamKnights.
    5.Open the Crusaders_unit_prod11 file with the GnomeEditor, go to the LateRoyalGhulamKnights line (102) and scroll to the column 48. Substitute the entry "LAKNIGHT, YES, YES, ArmHorse" for "SMAILCAV, YES, YES, EHorse"; save the file.

    Good luck and regards.
    Last edited by Belisario; 01-24-2007 at 19:19.

  20. #110

    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod

    I suppose new projectile types can be added, right? After all, the Viking Invasion expansion did that, AFAIK...
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  21. #111

    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod

    @Belisario: Working and looking very good!

    @The Unknown Guy: New projectile types can be added yes. A projectile as close to the arrow fired from a compound can be created, I just need some more input, as to it's velocity and range when compared to the longbow.

    The next thing to do is change the early and late Ghulam Bodyguard review panel and battle icon pics which are really equivalent to feudal knights and gothic knights. The high era Ghulam Bodyguards review panel pic looks much the same as the one for Ghulam Cavalry viewed from a different angle. I suppose that one can be left alone. The other two simply need to go. The late Ghulams will need o have their info pic replaced with for example the one for Avar Nobles (that shouldn't be in the game anyway). I should be able to modify the mongol helm. As to the first one I'm not sure, a modified and mirrored version of AHC perhaps? The info pics for Ghulam bodyguards I'm going to leave as they are.

    The old Early Ghulam Bodyguards one is going to be used for Early Royal Knights and the old Royal Knights one I'm going to pass on to the Militia Cavalry. They are all the same, except that they are viewed from differing angles.
    Last edited by caravel; 01-25-2007 at 00:05.

  22. #112
    Believer of Murphy's Law Member Sensei Warrior's Avatar
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    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod

    More about Archers. I am pretty sure that MTW/VI has a set amount of bows. IIRC its ShortBow, Longbow, MtdShortbow, Crossbow, Arbalest, and Shuriken. Don't quote me, as I'm not much of a modder but I don't think the list can be expanded. If thats the case then you might have to make certain sacrifices to make it work close to the way you want it to.

    Never fear as the solution is in the slot for Shuriken. Since it is a throwback from STW and not implemented in the game, you can tinker with it to make a new bow, point it to more suitable Medieval graphic images, attach it to the appropriate units, and voila, you're in business.

    I remember this from a post somewhere but I can't find it. If I flubbed it then my apologies in advance. Anyways food for thought.
    Every weapon has evolved from the same basic design, either a rock or a sharp pointy stick.

  23. #113

    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod

    I'm sure I can add a new projectile in the same way that I can add a new unit, otherwise the shuriken can be used like you say. I think that was used for the battlefield ninja but can't say for sure because I can't remember ever using any.

    -Edit: I've been looking at cavalry speeds. I've noticed, among other things that Gothic Knights run as fast as Muwahid Foot Soldiers!? Is that horse pulling a trailer? ("Gothic Knight and Cart"??). They also have masses of armour and defence and decent melee. This seems to be very un knightly indeed. If I'm deploying these on the field I want them to hit the enemy like a ton of bricks then back off for another charge, not slowly crawl up to the enemy hit them half heartedly then sit their meleeing. Geezer57 has all ready pointed out that the weight of gothic armour is largely myth, and they were not hoisted into the saddle as I suggested earlier, this is also a myth. I remember reading somewhere that not even jousting armour was that heavy, but was simply too awkward and cumbersome for battle. In view of this I would certainly impose a minimum gallop speed of 16 (currently 12) and a minimum cavalry charge speed of 18. (this excludes camels and infantry). This would make units like Kataphraktoi and Gothic Knights much more mobile, and realistic.

    Gothic Knights also have a very poor charge bonus for their class. The charge bonus needs to be upped to 8, the same as Kataphraktoi. They should be the most powerful cavalry on the battlefield. The cost and amount of teching up needed certainly warrants this. I would also have to tweak some of their other stats to give them the edge over lancers which are currently better in every respect.

    This brings us back to Kataphraktoi and Khwarazmian Cavalry. The latter essentially the former with half the charge bonus and almost twice the speed. Again, you want these types of units to charge and be effective at it, if they are horse archers a lesser charge is somewhat acceptable, but as pure heavy cavalry it is not. I would propose reducing the speed of khwarazmian down to the minimum gallop and cavalry charge level stated in the first paragraph. I would then increase the charge bonus to 8 (from 4), and then tweak the other stats to put them at a slight disadvantage to the Kataphraktoi.

    The Templar Knights also have a charge bonus of just 4, which I would double to bring it in line with all other knights of the same type.
    Last edited by caravel; 01-25-2007 at 14:09.

  24. #114

    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod

    The Templer charge bonus has always been ridiculous - every other knightly order is equal so why not these guys? Make playing as the crusaders irritating as foreign crusaders ge better knights than you do.
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  25. #115

    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Esteban
    The Templer charge bonus has always been ridiculous - every other knightly order is equal so why not these guys? Make playing as the crusaders irritating as foreign crusaders ge better knights than you do.
    It has to be an error, that has never been patched. I can see no valid reason as to why they are like that. All of the heavy cav need the 8 charge bonus, and the heavy cav archers need the 6 bonus, no less. The other stats can be variable within reason.

  26. #116
    Filthy Rich Member Odin's Avatar
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    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod

    Quote Originally Posted by Caravel
    I'm sure I can add a new projectile in the same way that I can add a new unit, otherwise the shuriken can be used like you say. I think that was used for the battlefield ninja but can't say for sure because I can't remember ever using any.

    -Edit: I've been looking at cavalry speeds. I've noticed, among other things that Gothic Knights run as fast as Muwahid Foot Soldiers!? Is that horse pulling a trailer? ("Gothic Knight and Cart"??). They also have masses of armour and defence and decent melee. This seems to be very un knightly indeed. If I'm deploying these on the field I want them to hit the enemy like a ton of bricks then back off for another charge, not slowly crawl up to the enemy hit them half heartedly then sit their meleeing. Geezer57 has all ready pointed out that the weight of gothic armour is largely myth, and they were not hoisted into the saddle as I suggested earlier, this is also a myth. I remember reading somewhere that not even jousting armour was that heavy, but was simply too awkward and cumbersome for battle. In view of this I would certainly impose a minimum gallop speed of 16 (currently 12) and a minimum cavalry charge speed of 18. (this excludes camels and infantry). This would make units like Kataphraktoi and Gothic Knights much more mobile, and realistic.

    Gothic Knights also have a very poor charge bonus for their class. The charge bonus needs to be upped to 8, the same as Kataphraktoi. They should be the most powerful cavalry on the battlefield. The cost and amount of teching up needed certainly warrants this. I would also have to tweak some of their other stats to give them the edge over lancers which are currently better in every respect.

    This brings us back to Kataphraktoi and Khwarazmian Cavalry. The latter essentially the former with half the charge bonus and almost twice the speed. Again, you want these types of units to charge and be effective at it, if they are horse archers a lesser charge is somewhat acceptable, but as pure heavy cavalry it is not. I would propose reducing the speed of khwarazmian down to the minimum gallop and cavalry charge level stated in the first paragraph. I would then increase the charge bonus to 8 (from 4), and then tweak the other stats to put them at a slight disadvantage to the Kataphraktoi.

    The Templar Knights also have a charge bonus of just 4, which I would double to bring it in line with all other knights of the same type.
    I have followed your pocket mod, hats off it looks very good.

    I am adding my 2 cents at this point because in your post you seem to lean toward giving heavy cavalry more speed. While you might have historical precedence to back this I strongly urge you to test this in game.

    A lot of the heavy horse units are heir units, and often (byzantines especially) benefit from the command value of the heir. If we add more speed to these units were really upping the anty for thier value. My main concern is the byzantines, while not impossible, thier heavy horse units are not easily defeated, with more speed added in now they can not only wipe out your melee units (via the command/jedi bonus) but when they are done with that run away from them.

    Additionally I urge observation on AI behaviors with increased speed on heavy horse units (particularly heirs). Often if the AI is numerically superior the command unit will lead the frontal assault, make them faster and they arrive at your front before thier support inf units.

    I wont haggle over the historical accuracy as more educated people then I can attest to it, but game balance should be considered.

    my 2 cents....

    Odin
    There are few things more annoying than some idiot who has never done anything trying to say definitively how something should be done.

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  27. #117
    Camel Lord Senior Member Capture The Flag Champion Martok's Avatar
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    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod

    Quote Originally Posted by Caravel
    -Edit: I've been looking at cavalry speeds. I've noticed, among other things that Gothic Knights run as fast as Muwahid Foot Soldiers!? Is that horse pulling a trailer? ("Gothic Knight and Cart"??). They also have masses of armour and defence and decent melee. This seems to be very un knightly indeed. If I'm deploying these on the field I want them to hit the enemy like a ton of bricks then back off for another charge, not slowly crawl up to the enemy hit them half heartedly then sit their meleeing. Geezer57 has all ready pointed out that the weight of gothic armour is largely myth, and they were not hoisted into the saddle as I suggested earlier, this is also a myth. I remember reading somewhere that not even jousting armour was that heavy, but was simply too awkward and cumbersome for battle. In view of this I would certainly impose a minimum gallop speed of 16 (currently 12) and a minimum cavalry charge speed of 18. (this excludes camels and infantry). This would make units like Kataphraktoi and Gothic Knights much more mobile, and realistic.

    Gothic Knights also have a very poor charge bonus for their class. The charge bonus needs to be upped to 8, the same as Kataphraktoi. They should be the most powerful cavalry on the battlefield. The cost and amount of teching up needed certainly warrants this. I would also have to tweak some of their other stats to give them the edge over lancers which are currently better in every respect.
    I whole-heartedly support this. Not that I use GK's that much, but I use the Katanks all the time in my Byz campaigns. Giving them improved speed and a higher charge value would really help keep them from becoming obsolete so quickly. (And I'm certain our HRE fans would appreciate this as well.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Caravel
    This brings us back to Kataphraktoi and Khwarazmian Cavalry. The latter essentially the former with half the charge bonus and almost twice the speed. Again, you want these types of units to charge and be effective at it, if they are horse archers a lesser charge is somewhat acceptable, but as pure heavy cavalry it is not. I would propose reducing the speed of khwarazmian down to the minimum gallop and cavalry charge level stated in the first paragraph. I would then increase the charge bonus to 8 (from 4), and then tweak the other stats to put them at a slight disadvantage to the Kataphraktoi.
    Sounds good, Caravel. Speaking of the Khwarazmians, did you lower their build requirements? (I haven't progressed very far enough in my current Fatamid campaign yet to tell.) I know you were going to tweak their stats a bit, but I can't remember what - if anything - we'd decided about their build requirements (other than to agree they were rather high for their mediocre abilities).

    Quote Originally Posted by Caravel
    The Templar Knights also have a charge bonus of just 4, which I would double to bring it in line with all other knights of the same type.
    You're right; that's pretty odd, especially since they were generally considered to be the best of the Crusading orders. Glad to see you're correcting this!
    "MTW is not a game, it's a way of life." -- drone

  28. #118

    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod

    Quote Originally Posted by Odin
    I have followed your pocket mod, hats off it looks very good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Odin
    I am adding my 2 cents at this point because in your post you seem to lean toward giving heavy cavalry more speed. While you might have historical precedence to back this I strongly urge you to test this in game.
    The whole idea of this mod that at present, in the beta stage, it gets playtested. Changes are introduced and tested by those contributing. If it is found that Kataphraktoi and Gothic Knights have become too fast then they will be adjusted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Odin
    A lot of the heavy horse units are heir units, and often (byzantines especially) benefit from the command value of the heir. If we add more speed to these units were really upping the anty for thier value. My main concern is the byzantines, while not impossible, thier heavy horse units are not easily defeated, with more speed added in now they can not only wipe out your melee units (via the command/jedi bonus) but when they are done with that run away from them.
    The only bodyguard heavy cavalry that I will be modding are the Kataphraktoi. They will be slightly faster and nothing more, still no where near as fast as ghulam bodyguards or chivalric knights.
    Quote Originally Posted by Odin
    Additionally I urge observation on AI behaviors with increased speed on heavy horse units (particularly heirs). Often if the AI is numerically superior the command unit will lead the frontal assault, make them faster and they arrive at your front before thier support inf units.
    Ghulam Bodyguards are always faster anyway than all supporting units. The modded Kataphraktoi won't be any faster than them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Odin
    I wont haggle over the historical accuracy as more educated people then I can attest to it, but game balance should be considered.
    Indeed. This mod always takes balance into consideration, as well as historical accuracy. Gameplay is also an issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Martok
    I whole-heartedly support this. Not that I use GK's that much, but I use the Katanks all the time in my Byz campaigns. Giving them improved speed and a higher charge value would really help keep them from becoming obsolete so quickly. (And I'm certain our HRE fans would appreciate this as well.)
    Kataphraktoi already have the maximum charge value. The only thing that needs changing is their run and charge speeds.
    Quote Originally Posted by Martok
    Sounds good, Caravel. Speaking of the Khwarazmians, did you lower their build requirements? (I haven't progressed very far enough in my current Fatamid campaign yet to tell.) I know you were going to tweak their stats a bit, but I can't remember what - if anything - we'd decided about their build requirements (other than to agree they were rather high for their mediocre abilities).
    The Fatimids can no longer train Khwarazmian Cavalry, only the Turks and Mongols. I haven't changed the build requirements at all. The only stat change is that they are disciplined. They will have their charge increased from 4 to 6 and will be slowed down to the same new speed as Kataphraktoi and Gothic Knights
    Quote Originally Posted by Martok
    You're right; that's pretty odd, especially since they were generally considered to be the best of the Crusading orders. Glad to see you're correcting this!


    Edit: It is important to remember that, at present even with the proposed stat changes there is no reason to train Gothic Knights as all factions can already produce Lancers which are statistically better. Gothic Knights will need to surpass Lancers to be feasible. Alternatively Lancers could be removed from the HRE and Italians forcing them to tech up to Gothic Knights?? Difficult one.

    Here are some stats (modified):

    Chivalric and Order Knights:
    Charge: 8
    Melee: 5
    Defense: 5
    Armour: 7
    Honour: 8

    *Gothic Knights:
    Charge: 6 (+2)
    Melee: 6 (+2)
    Defense: 7
    Armour: 9
    Honour: 8

    Lancers:
    Charge: 8
    Melee: 5
    Defense: 7
    Armour: 9
    Honour: 8

    *Kataphraktoi:
    Charge: 8
    Melee: 3
    Defense: 5
    Armour: 7
    Honour: 4

    *Khwarazmian Cavaly:
    Charge: 6
    Melee: 4 (+1)
    Defense: 5
    Armour: 7
    Honour: 4

    *run/charge = 16/18

    All others run/charge = 20/22

    Lancers are better, faster and take less teching up than Gothic Knights. Lancers cost more to train and support but that's it.
    Last edited by caravel; 01-26-2007 at 20:02.

  29. #119
    Camel Lord Senior Member Capture The Flag Champion Martok's Avatar
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    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod

    Quote Originally Posted by Caravel
    Kataphraktoi already have the maximum charge value. The only thing that needs changing is their run and charge speeds.

    The Fatimids can no longer train Khwarazmian Cavalry, only the Turks and Mongols. I haven't changed the build requirements at all. The only stat change is that they are disciplined.
    Doh! I forgot about that. My bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caravel
    Edit: It is important to remember that, at present even with the proposed stat changes there is no reason to train Gothic Knights as all factions can already produce Lancers which are statistically better. Gothic Knights will need to surpass Lancers to be feasible. Alternatively Lancers could be removed from the HRE and Italians forcing them to tech up to Gothic Knights?? Difficult one.

    [snip]

    Lancers are better, faster and take less teching up than Gothic Knights. Lancers cost more to train and support but that's it.
    Hmm. That is a quandary. I like the idea of removing Lancers for the HRE and Italians, but you're right in that the GK's will then have to equalized with Lancers somehow. Perhaps increase the build requirements for Lancers, and further lower the cost of Gothic Knights? I'm not sure.
    "MTW is not a game, it's a way of life." -- drone

  30. #120
    Believer of Murphy's Law Member Sensei Warrior's Avatar
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    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod

    Just one minor almost picky thing. MTW says that the reason why GKs charge is so low is because they don't charge with lances, all they have is Maces or Morning Stars or some type of AP melee weapon.

    I guess my question is are they going to be charging with Lances or are you just upping the charge modifier?

    Like I said it was rather picky, but I was just curious, in the end I don't think it'll matter either way.
    Every weapon has evolved from the same basic design, either a rock or a sharp pointy stick.

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