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Thread: Europa Universalis III

  1. #91
    Urwendur Ûrîbêl Senior Member Mouzafphaerre's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Universalis III

    .
    I've yet to load the Sengoku game. Will update with what comes out here.
    .
    Last edited by Mouzafphaerre; 09-10-2009 at 22:17.
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  2. #92
    Semi-Corruptible Member White_eyes:D's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Universalis III

    Hopefully, you can unite Japan again....shame seeing it fall apart like that.. (More importantly...I hope it doesn't happen to me)

  3. #93
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Universalis III

    Okay, I'm sorta-kinda-almost getting the hang of this game. Question, though: Why do other nations research techs so much faster than I do? Doesn't matter whether I'm playing as Castille, Portugal or Britain, they're always a few points ahead of me. I set my research bars as high as I can without going into bankruptcy, and yet the warlike French are far in advance no matter what I do.

    Clearly there is a mechanism I'm missing.

  4. #94
    Chretien Saisset Senior Member OverKnight's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Universalis III

    Which difficulty level are you playing on? I think the AI gets research advantages at higher levels of difficulties.

    The three countries you mention tend to be colonial powers, are you colonizing a lot? Absorbing a high number of low income territories into your nation drags down research. This is because research cost is partly determined by how many territories you have. If you don't have increased income to match your increased size, research slows down.

    Most likely France is too busy blobbing over everything to colonize much. Even if they are a war-monger they are still acquiring rich European territories so their increased income compensates for their increased size when it comes to research.

    When I played a colonizing England, I had a hard time keeping up with France, but when I played an expanionistic Milan with little colonization I could. I'm sure further down the line, once the colonies have matured and you're making money hand over fist, you could catch up.
    Last edited by OverKnight; 09-22-2009 at 05:13.
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  5. #95
    Devout worshipper of Bilious Member miotas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Universalis III

    I'm currently playing a game as Mecklenburg with only 2 provinces, and my tech research is the highest in the world. My land and naval techs on 10 are equal with the other current world leaders, my production tech on 10 is 1 higher than anyone else, and though my trade tech is on 12 and 2 higher than anyone else, my government tech on 11 is actually 3 higher than anyone else.

    All this focus on staying small, making money and researching comes at a cost though since my manpower pool is tiny. It's a great change of pace from my previous games as a colonial England, and a warlike Spain. I have had to put a much more effort into maintaining good relations with my neighbours than my previous games, and all the wars I have been involved in I basically moved in and quickly took a few provinces so I could secure a quick peace before they brought their full forces to bear and crushed my small army.

    EDIT
    Another advantage of being small is that you get to change your policy sliders more often.
    Last edited by miotas; 09-22-2009 at 10:02.

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  6. #96
    is not a senior Member Meneldil's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Universalis III

    Colonizing reduce your tech investement, at least until the colonies start to bring some cash (which doesn't happen before the late 16th).

  7. #97
    The Abominable Senior Member Hexxagon Champion Monk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Universalis III

    Don't forget about your slider settings. If your nation is far on the "narrow minded" side, tech research gets lots of penalties.

  8. #98
    Vindicative son of a gun Member Jolt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Universalis III

    And don't forget lucky nations. Not sure they get a bonus in research though. They do get quite a boon in income, though.
    BLARGH!

  9. #99
    Devout worshipper of Bilious Member miotas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Universalis III

    The lucky nations don't get more income (not directly anyway), their missionaries, colonists, merchants and spies have a slightly higher chance, and they do get a small bonus to all their research. Their leaders also have an extra 1 to fire and shock.
    Last edited by miotas; 09-22-2009 at 14:41.

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  10. #100
    Bureaucratically Efficient Senior Member TinCow's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Universalis III

    The above is correct: research costs go up as your number of territories increases. The larger you get, the more research points it costs for everything. If you add a territory to your empire which does not produce enough income to meet the additional research costs it is causing, your research will become a little harder than it used to be. This means that your research will slow down when you colonize and when you absorb poor provinces. Note that income increases significantly if a province has your core on it. Thus, if you gain a whole bunch of non-core provinces in a war, they will usually drag down you research until you core them.

    In my games, it is very normal for my research to slow down for a while after the early game. Once you start expanding majorly, you'll take a lot of hits for the above listed reasons. However, once your colonies mature and you pop cores on your conquests, your research and income will start to rebound and you'll find yourself making up your lost ground. I'm usually behind in research at 1500 AD (in a 1399 start), but ahead in research by 1700 AD.

    If you want to avoid this situation altogether, try to conquer only rich provinces and cored provinces. This is what makes expansion in northern Italy, France, and parts of Germany very profitable. This is also why grabbing a chunk of southern India is useful: they are all wealthy provinces that will give you a net profit in gold/research. Also, only use mass colonization if you're ok with long-term development. If you can't afford the research/income hit of supporting the colonies until they become profitable, it's better to forget about them and conquer them from someone else later.


  11. #101
    Devout worshipper of Bilious Member miotas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Universalis III

    Quote Originally Posted by johnhughthom View Post
    What benefits does a monopoly give?

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  12. #102
    Peerless Senior Member johnhughthom's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Universalis III

    Nice, can you lose your monopoly by having a merchant competed away?

  13. #103
    Camel Lord Senior Member Capture The Flag Champion Martok's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Universalis III

    A couple new dev diaries (nos. 3 & 4) for Heir to the Throne: The first one discusses dynasties, naming heirs, and royal successions. The second diary focuses almost exclusively on the HRE, and the new options one will have while playing as the Emperor (and/or German princes).


    Developer Diary #3
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    New week, new diary. Since the last entry, 1,082,875 people have died in the world. Why do I mention this? Well, granted, I am slightly morbid, but also, the topic for today is death. And not just any kind of death, but the death of Kings.

    While EU3 is not, and should not primarily be, a game of characters and noble houses, succession could be a lot more interesting. Thus, monarchs now belong to a dynasty. Countries with monarchs from the same dynasty get a bonus to their relations growth and may experience a variety of dynastic events. Monarchs can also have a legal heir. To keep things simple, the heir only has a name, an age, and a strength of claim (weak, average or strong.) In the tragic event of the monarch dying, a legal heir will ensure a minimum of fuss.

    Long live the King, but should God in his mercy lift him up to Heaven, the worldly results are now predictable and shown in a handy tooltip. For example, an underage heir will result in a regency. An heir with a weak claim might encourage a Pretender to rise up, and the absence of an heir will cause a change of dynasty, the country getting inherited, or the formation of a personal union.

    Apart from a more predictable succession, the new system allows players to manipulate the outcome. The "Claim Throne" diplomatic action has been revised to make more sense: it can only be used against countries that have no heir or an heir with a weak claim. Claimants have priority to form personal unions and dynasty changes. The downside is that only claimants can get dragged into Succession Wars... In the absence of claimants, Prestige determines which royal marriage can cause personal unions and dynasty changes.

    Until next week!



    Developer Diary #4
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Todays diary is about that agglomeration of states which Voltaire thought was neither Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire. As a Swede I am of course bound to concur. Cum Deo et victribus armis! Even so, the HRE wielded a lot of power, and in another world, full of little eagles, crowns and, indeed, Krauts, it might eventually have coalesced into a proper nation. And that's what we're all about here at Paradox; alternate history! Well, that and authority, but more on that later.

    In Heir to the Throne, we are adding more features to the HRE than it had members. Well, maybe not, but still quite a few. First off, a new concept called Imperial Authority. Imperial Authority represents the amount of control the Emperor exerts over the princes of the empire. It can be gained or lost in many ways, for example by answering the call of members under attack by foreign powers, or by liberating an annexed HRE member. The main reason for having Imperial Authority is to execute the special decisions that will allow skilled Holy Roman Emperors to tighten the reins on the member princes and eventually unite the disparate fiefdoms under one banner.

    We are also adding at least two new diplomatic actions: "Bestow Imperial Grace" and "Enforce Religious Unity". The first works like "Send Gift", except it costs Imperial Authority rather than gold and gives a greater boost to relations. The second is a demand for conversion. If the errant princeling accepts, the religion changes and the Emperor gains more authority. If he refuses, the Emperor gains a special Casus Belli. (Speaking of which, in line with the new CB system, princes of the HRE are now allowed to fight each other without incurring the wrath of the Emperor, provided they have a valid Casus Belli.)

    Finally, we have the "Imperial Ban" Casus Belli, which the emperor can employ against any non-member country with provinces that are part of the Empire. This only becomes available after a certain reform decision has been taken at the cost of Imperial Authority. (You will have noticed I've mentioned authority a lot. That's because at Paradox, we like authority; especially Johan.)

    Adieu.



    Some pretty cool-sounding stuff there. I want it to be December already so I can grab both this and EU3 Complete!
    Last edited by Martok; 10-21-2009 at 06:55.
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  14. #104
    The Abominable Senior Member Hexxagon Champion Monk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Universalis III

    (Speaking of which, in line with the new CB system, princes of the HRE are now allowed to fight each other without incurring the wrath of the Emperor, provided they have a valid Casus Belli.)
    YES! FINALLY!

  15. #105
    Devout worshipper of Bilious Member miotas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Universalis III

    Quote Originally Posted by johnhughthom View Post
    Nice, can you lose your monopoly by having a merchant competed away?
    Yeah, the big problem with having a monopoly is that all new merchants who come to the COT compete only with you and with no one else, so maintaining monopolies can become quite expensive. Also don't try to control all the monopolies out there. Every merchant you have out in the world reduces your chances of success. When I took that picture I had about 170 merchants out in the world and my chances of success were rarely above 10% so I cut back my merchants from all the poorer COT's.

    Also the total cost of that COT in tarasco rose above 2000ducats at one point, and even though the Scandinavians took part of my share I was still making over 1500/year.

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  16. #106
    pardon my klatchian Member al Roumi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Universalis III

    It's annoying you can't stop the auto-send algorithm spamming monopolies. Its strange you can't (maybe you can and I don't know?) when you can otherwise rank COTs by priority.

  17. #107
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Universalis III

    In Napoleon's Ambition (or maybe In Nomine, not quite sure any more) by setting sliders in the COT on medium, you will only send merchants until you reach the number of 5. You won't send additional unless one gets competed away.

  18. #108
    pardon my klatchian Member al Roumi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Universalis III

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    In Napoleon's Ambition (or maybe In Nomine, not quite sure any more) by setting sliders in the COT on medium, you will only send merchants until you reach the number of 5. You won't send additional unless one gets competed away.
    Ohhh, that explains things! Thanks Sarmatian! I genuinely thought it was just a low, medium, High priority destination filter.

  19. #109
    Camel Lord Senior Member Capture The Flag Champion Martok's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Universalis III

    Heir to the Throne Dev Diary #5 is up. The topic is Merchant Republics, with an emphasis on the Hanseatic League:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    When you think of a merchant, what image immediately springs to mind? A fat man in a fur-lined coat and a funny hat, holding a bag of coins? I bet it does, or at least something similar. The fat man is of course none other than Jürgen Wullenwever, mayor of Lübeck and instigator of the Danish Civil War known as the Count's Feud, whose epic failures led to his torture and death in 1537, signalling the beginning of the end for the Hanseatic League. (Such is the power of archetypes that they can survive for centuries almost unchanged.)

    The Hanseatic League as a political entity has always been problematic to define - especially in game terms - but as Wullenwever's example proves, its senior representatives did not hesitate to use military force when it suited them. The League may have played a minor role in EU3 but will enter the limelight in Heir to the Throne, with Lübeck and Hamburg merged and forming the core of the Hanseatic League. Now, there are some who will object to this, but do read on before you start convulsing and frothing at the mouth.

    The Hanseatic League is of course a Merchant Republic, and this form of government has received a serious overhaul. Merchant Republics do not use regular Trade Agreements; instead, they form Trade Leagues, the members of which avoid internal competition. The Merchant Republic gains by this, because league provinces tend to trade through league centers of trade. The members also stand to gain, since they use the Republic's compete modifiers (if better than their own.) Additionally, the league might open Trade Stations (think Hanseatic Kontors) in member provinces, giving various bonuses. Merchant Republics can also Propose Trade Rights, which means all goods of a certain type will trade through its own centers of trade, with a set compensation to the giver and some other effects. Lastly, there will be more events and decisions dealing with Merchant Republics, like the Hanseatic League trying to avoid paying the Sound toll.

    Merchant Republics can not include each other in their leagues, being bitter rivals, and it is of course no longer possible to simply change your form of government to Merchant Republic: Venice, Genoa, the Hanseatic League and Novgorod are it at the start of the game, each having their own Trade League. However, if you too want the respect that comes with obesity, garish clothes and oversized jewelry, you might be able to convert through a special decision (or a career in gangsta rap; your call.)

    What else have I got for you today? Oh yes, all forms of republic barring tribes now get reduced penalties from provinces not of their own culture and religion. (In general, government bonuses are being redesigned to make them more interesting.) So, there you have it, there is room for humanists and democrats in our Paradoxian hearts too (but not enough that I will tell you what Magistrates do)!



    Can you say "trade wars"?
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  20. #110
    Devout worshipper of Bilious Member miotas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Universalis III

    There's couple more dev diaries up:

    Dev Diary 6, mostly dealing with map changes. Permanent terra incognita is out the window, and it looks like France wont devour all the small European states like she normally does.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    This week I thought we'd sit back and enjoy the little things, because that is the secret to lifelong satisfaction and contentment (also, I cannot reveal a major feature while the interface still looks like the demented scrawlings of Abdul Alhazred!) So, let us kick off with the removal of the Permanent Terra Incognita. We thought that those mysterious regions forever hidden under a lovely shade of blinding white might as well be explorable: Here be Dragons, but to be honest, nothing else of interest. That is why most of the former PTI areas are still considered "wasteland". Wasteland provinces can be discovered, but are impassable and cannot be settled. This is, in short, mostly a visual improvement. However, a few strips of land here and there could actually be salvaged and turned into normal provinces. In the process, I found myself annoyed with Russia, so I grabbed my musket and my tricorne and prepared to march on Moscow, but then I remembered which century it was (see what happens you spend too much time on our forums?) So, instead, I gratuitously changed the Russian geography so it was more to my liking.

    Speaking of geography; as the astute among you have already noticed, other areas of Europe also look a bit different. However, in this case the motivation was not only to correct map errors but also to stop the ungodly Blue Blob before we all choke on snails and Crème brûlée. Yes my friends, it is time to say non to the menace that is France. Or, at least, a timid S'il vous plaît ne me tuez pas! Jesting aside, we hope France is now better balanced, with more initial trouble annexing its vassals and smashing Burgundy.

    But enough with the minor map changes. A proper new feature in Heir to the Throne is the concept of Legitimacy, which represents how... well, legitimate, your dynasty is perceived to be. The value is shown in the top bar for monarchies and slowly increases or decreases with positive or negative prestige, number of royal marriages, etc. Many other events also have an impact, like a dynasty or government change, losing wars of aggression and failing to achieve war goals. Much like prestige, legitimacy has a plethora of effects on the state of your kingdom, like revolt risk, pretender rebel chance and Infamy reduction. Legitimacy is intimately tied to the strength of claim of your legal heir: an heir with a weak claim will lower the legitimacy of your dynasty on succession. On the other hand, having a high legitimacy is likelier to produce heirs with a strong claim.

    Before we get to the screenshots, which speak louder than my paltry words anyway, I think I will round off by revealing what 'Magistrates' are for. In our early brainstorming sessions, we thought that some type of "focus points" would be a great way to ensure a proper progression of government forms, from primitive to almost modern (like the "Constitutional Republic".) After some shape shifting, this idea eventually coalesced into the form of the Magistrate; an all-purpose official whose chief purpose is to execute decisions, especially at the province level (this is not a hardcoded requirement, but simply a scripted effect of the decisions.) Magistrates are gained much faster for later government types, allowing quicker decision making. Magistrates should also be welcomed by our esteemed modding community, since they can be used in all kinds of clever scripts.


    Dev Diary 7, dealing with culture and religion. It all looks very interesting, I can think of a few times when being able to recruit the ideal advisor would have been very helpful.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    In these days of Dawkins, Dennet and Flying Spaghetti Monsters, it is sometimes hard to remember an age before there were "Brights" and everyone was dim; when there was no "Talk like a Pirate Day" because people spoke that way all year round... the long centuries when people went to church and the Church went wherever a certain arthritic - but very holy - finger pointed; the finger of that fellow in the funny hat whose current incarnation looks a lot like Emperor Palpatine. Of course, at Paradox we still remember, and in Heir to the Throne we are giving the Pontiff of Rome his due by revising the whole Curia system. While bribery and cynical manipulation of organized religions sounds like fun in theory, the Holy See was a feature that did not see much use in EU3. Thus, you can no longer bribe cardinals. Instead, every Catholic country has an amount of Papal Influence that increases the chance of getting a cardinal elected in the first place. This reduces micromanagement while still allowing players to attain control of the Papacy by choosing the right national ideas, being narrowminded, maintaining good relations with the Papal State, etc.

    Speaking of unpolished features, another aspect of the game we were never quite happy with - but for much the opposite reason - is the advisor system. It lacks interactivity. That's why we added a shiny new window where you can play God by creating an advisor of a specific type out of nothing. Well, nothing plus a certain amount of army, navy or cultural tradition. Cultural tradition is a new concept intended to reward players for playing the game in a civilized manner (i.e. not throwing tantrums or reloading when things turn sour.) Like with admirals and generals, the quality of the advisor is dependent on how much tradition you have at the time. (The hopefully Great Man will then be available for hire, as normal, in the advisor view.) Also to be found in the new window is another type of decision; cultural decisions. These are mostly intended to increase your cultural tradition by patronizing the arts. (I also like to patronize the arts, but my way does not cost money...)

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  21. #111
    Camel Lord Senior Member Capture The Flag Champion Martok's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Universalis III

    Dev Diary #8: Yaaaargh!!!

    'Tis soon the Season, and us friendly elves here at Paradox are merrily chiseling away at the bound-to-be-hailed-as-a-masterpiece EU3 expansion; Heir to the Throne. (Well, some of us are; the rest of the crew pretend to be working on Victoria 2, but they're not fooling anyone!) It is time to reach into Santa's great big sack and pull out another ribboned feature or two to spoil for you...

    Today we shall celebrate the Queene's Day by speaking of her (Elizabeth I, bless her soul) enterprising servants at sea; the privateers. These hardy men who tread the fine line between honest patriotism and outright piracy (and sometimes drunkenly swerved across it. Yarrrh!) In fact, for this diary I think it might be more appropriate to assume the Spanish point of view and regard them all as scum who deserved nothing but a shameful hanging. (Begging her majesty's pardon.)

    A major complaint with pirates in EU3 is the amount of micromanagement required to keep the bloody scoundrels in check, cluttering the outliner and requiring a lot of player attention even with automated naval patrols. We decided on a solution that still requires large colonial empires to maintain powerful navies, but does not increase micromanagement. First of all, every fleet now has a patrol range, and sea zones within that range are now marked as 'patrolled' for a certain number of days when a fleet is nearby at the start of a new month. The patrol range depends on your naval technology, and a few fleets alone can potentially cover the entire Spanish colonial empire. Of course, if those fleets get blockaded in a port during a war, they will no longer perform this duty. We also reduced the spawn chance of pirates but made them slightly stronger to make them more challenging. Lastly, provinces on an unpatrolled coast receive a financial penalty, representing smuggling and other shady activities.

    On a salty and somewhat related note, we added a new map mode for naval and colonial range, as well as the new concept of Trade Winds. Trade winds are shown with red arrows in certain sea zones where the prevailing wind tends to come from one direction. For the sake of simplicity, the strength and direction of trade winds are static, making certain routes more or less attractive to fleets.

    Now then, while Heir to the Throne is a veritable cornucopia of new and addictive features I could go on and on about, it is time to stop blathering and return to the hammer and the chisel! But don't be sad kiddies, here are some screenshots with lots of pretty colors!




    This would appear to be a welcome change in dealing with piracy. I have to admit I also like that provinces on an un-patrolled coastline will now suffer a penalty for smuggling and what-have-you. Seems like a nice touch.
    Last edited by Martok; 11-19-2009 at 07:56. Reason: Forgot spoiler tags
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  22. #112
    is not a senior Member Meneldil's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Universalis III

    "Holy **** my country is nerfed !! @))-($ù$^*@

    EU3 will blow, and I'm going to start complaining on the official forums.
    "

  23. #113
    Bureaucratically Efficient Senior Member TinCow's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Universalis III

    The new expansion pack certainly adds a lot of stuff that we've all been wanting for a very long time. I might even stop playing MMP2 and go back to vanilla after this comes out. The war aims and dynasties alone are major improvements.


  24. #114
    Poll Smoker Senior Member CountArach's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Universalis III

    Started up a MMP2 campaign as Sweden. I love this mod so much... I fought the openning war against Denmark/Norway to a draw, but had a rebellion in the Lappland region that was successful (The rebels won the seige, though I destroyed them soon after). Spurred on by this success half of Finland rebelled (at least 18000 men), and I was forced to march over there with all speed as my token garrison was not even close to adequate. I'm currently trying to get my stability up above +1 and banging together some semblance of an economy.
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  25. #115
    Bureaucratically Efficient Senior Member TinCow's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Universalis III

    Would anyone be interested in playing a succession game in MMP2? For those that don't know, a succession game is one in which a person plays the game until their regent dies. When the regent dies, another player takes the saved game and then continues to play until their regent dies. Repeat until the game is over or the group decides to end it. It is interesting, but not everyone plays in the same manner, so one person's ideas on what the country might not match someone else's. Here are examples of this on the Paradox forums and a list of TW succession games from the Throne Room.


  26. #116
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Universalis III

    I played the demo. I think I played this game wrong.

    All I pretty much did as the Swiss was construct a couple of odd-buildings and have level 5 trade in 7 regions. Only advisors I recruited were trade and just played a trade war game.

    I didn't work out how to do my own trade area though or why my provinces kept changing areas.
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  27. #117
    Poll Smoker Senior Member CountArach's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Universalis III

    Quote Originally Posted by TinCow View Post
    Would anyone be interested in playing a succession game in MMP2? For those that don't know, a succession game is one in which a person plays the game until their regent dies. When the regent dies, another player takes the saved game and then continues to play until their regent dies. Repeat until the game is over or the group decides to end it. It is interesting, but not everyone plays in the same manner, so one person's ideas on what the country might not match someone else's. Here are examples of this on the Paradox forums and a list of TW succession games from the Throne Room.
    Sounds like an awesome idea mate.
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  28. #118
    The Abominable Senior Member Hexxagon Champion Monk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Universalis III

    Quote Originally Posted by TinCow View Post
    Would anyone be interested in playing a succession game in MMP2? For those that don't know, a succession game is one in which a person plays the game until their regent dies. When the regent dies, another player takes the saved game and then continues to play until their regent dies. Repeat until the game is over or the group decides to end it. It is interesting, but not everyone plays in the same manner, so one person's ideas on what the country might not match someone else's. Here are examples of this on the Paradox forums and a list of TW succession games from the Throne Room.
    In.

  29. #119
    Bureaucratically Efficient Senior Member TinCow's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Universalis III

    Alright, that's three of us, which I think is good enough to start. It's easy for others to join in when it's in progress, and we can easily just rotate between the three of us even if we don't get any more. To keep from derailing this thread, I've made another one:

    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=123643


  30. #120
    Bureaucratically Efficient Senior Member TinCow's Avatar
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    Default Re: Europa Universalis III

    Dev Diary 10 is up. This one has a horde of UI improvements visible in the screenshots which will be welcome. I'm extremelly eager for this expansion now, particularly after MMP is converted to deal with it.


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