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Thread: MTW Pocket Mod: Factions

  1. #31
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    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod: Factions

    So from what I have read, the three Byzantine factions would work, along with Serbia, but the Georgians and Bulgarians would be hard to do, considering thier history. I'm I right, or have I interpreted it wrong?

  2. #32
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    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod: Factions

    Just wondering if you have decided on any new factions. Here is some Wiki info on some of the factions I have suggested.

    Volga-Bulgarians

    Volga Bulgaria or Volga-Kama Bolghar, is a historic state that existed between the 7th and 13th centuries around the confluence of the Volga and Kama rivers in what is now Russia. Today, both the Republics of Tatarstan and Chuvashia are considered to be descendants of Volga Bulgaria in terms of territory and ethnicity.

    Information on Volga Bulgaria is rather sparse. As no authentic Bulgar records have survived, most of our information comes from contemporary Arabic, Persian, Indian or Russian sources. Some information is provided by excavations.

    It is thought that the territory of Volga Bulgaria was originally settled by Finno-Ugric peoples. The Turkic Bulgars moved into the area in about AD 660, commanded by Kotrag Khan, Kubrat's son. Some Bulgar tribes, however, continued westward and after many adventures settled along the Danube River, in what is now known as Bulgaria proper, where they merged with or were assimilated by the Slavs, adopting a South Slavic tongue and the Eastern Orthodox faith.

    Most scholars agree that the Volga Bulgarians were subject to the great Khazarian Empire. Sometime in the late 9th century unification processes started, and the capital was established at Bolğar (also spelled Bulgar) city, 160 km south from modern Kazan. Most scholars doubt, however, that the state could assert independence from the Khazars until the latter were annihilated by Svyatoslav of Rus in 965.

    A large part of the region's population was Turkic and included Bulgars, Suars, Barsil, Bilars, Baranjars and part of Burtas (by ibn Rustah). Modern Chuvashes and Kazan Tatars descend from the Volga Bulgars (with more or less significant admixtures of Finno-Ugric and Kipchak Turkic populations, respectively). Another part comprised Finnic and Magyaric (Asagel and Pascatir) tribes, from which Bisermäns and Tatars probably descend.

    Islam was adopted as the state religion in the early tenth century. Ibn Fadlan was dispatched by the Abbasid Caliph al-Muqtadir in 922/3 to establish relations and bring qadis and teachers of Islamic law to Volga Bulgaria, as well as help in building a fort and a mosque. Tengriism and other religions, however, continued to be practiced.

    Commanding the Volga River in its middle course, the state controlled much of trade between Europe and Asia prior to the Crusades (which made other trade routes practicable). The capital, Bolghar, was a thriving city, rivalling in size and wealth with the greatest centres of Islamic world. Trade partners of Bolghar included from Vikings, Bjarmland, Yugra and Nenets in the north to Baghdad and Constantinople in the south, from Western Europe to China in the East. Other major cities included Bilär, Suar (Suwar), Qaşan (Kashan) and Cükätaw (Juketaw). Modern cities Kazan and Yelabuga were founded as Volga Bulgaria's border fortresses.

    Some of the Volga Bulgarian cities still haven't been found, but they are mentioned in Russian sources. They are: Aşlı (Oshel), Tuxçin (Tukhchin), İbrahim (Bryakhimov), Taw İle. Some of them were ruined after and during the Mongol invasion.

    The Russian principalities to the west posed the only tangible military threat. In the 11th century, the country was devastated by several Russian raids. Then, at the turn of the 12th and 13th centuries, the rulers of Vladimir (notably Andrew the Pious and Vsevolod III), anxious to defend their eastern border, systematically pillaged Bulgarian cities. Under Slavic pressure from the west, the Bulgars had to move their capital from Bolghar to Bilär.

    In September 1223 near Samara an advance guard of Genghis Khan's army under command of Uran, son of Subedei Bahadur, entered Volga Bulgaria but was defeated by Gabdula Chelbir Khan. In 1236, the Mongols returned but it took them five years to subjugate the whole country which at that time was suffering from internal war. Henceforth Volga Bulgaria became a part of the Ulus Jochi, later known as the Golden Horde. It was divided into several principalities; each of them became a vassal of the Golden Horde and received some autonomy. By the 1430s, the Khanate of Kazan was established as the most important of these principalities.

    Cumans

    Cuman, also called Polovtsy, Polovtsian, or the Anglicized Polovzian (Russian: Половцы Polovcy, Ukrainian: Половцi Polovtsi, Bulgarian: Кумани Kumani, Romanian: Cumani, Hungarian: Kunok), is a Western European exonym for the western Kipchaks. The Cumans were a nomadic Turkic tribe who inhabited a shifting area north of the Black Sea known as Cumania along the Volga River.

    The Cumans entered the lands of present-day southern Ukraine, as well as historic Moldavia, Wallachia, and part of Transylvania, in the 11th century. Having conquered the area, they continued their assaults by attacking and plundering the Byzantine Empire, the Kingdom of Hungary, and Rus.

    In 1089, they were defeated by Ladislaus I of Hungary. In alliance with the Vlachs and the Bulgarians during the Vlach-Bulgar Rebellion by brothers Asen and Peter of Tarnovo, the Cumans are believed to have played a significant role in the rebellion's final victory over Byzantium and the restoration of Bulgaria's independence (1185). The Cumans defeated the Great Prince Vladimir Monomakh of Kievan Rus in the 12th century (at the Battle of the Stugna River) but were crushed by the Mongols in 1238, after which most of them fled Wallachia and Moldova and took refuge in Hungary, Bulgaria, and the Byzantine Empire. After many clashes with the Hungarians, the Cumans were eventually evicted from Hungary to join their kin who lived in Bulgaria. Later, however, a large segment of them were re-invited back to Hungary. The Cumans who remained scattered in the steppe of what is now Russia joined the Golden Horde khanate. In the 11th century the Cumans established their own country named Cumania, in an area comprised of modern-day Moldova, Moldavia and Walachia.

    The Hungarian kings claimed supremacy on the territory of Cumania, among the 9 titles of the Hungarian kings of the Arpad and Anjou dynasties were the rex Cumaniae (further titles of Hungary, Croatia, Dalmatia—since Ladislaus I of Hungary inherited the 2 kingdoms based on his sister's right from his brother in law, and of Servia (Serbia), Rama (Bosnia), Lodomeria, Galitia and Bulgaria—based on their possession of Vidin, ca. 2% of the whole territory, further the Anjous were princes of Salerno as well).

    The Bishopric of Milko was created in Cumania suffragant of Archbishopric Esztergom / (German Gram—see Nibelungenlied or Latin Strigam)

    In the 13th century, the Western Cumans adopted Roman Catholicism (in Hungary they later became all Calvinist) and the Gagauzes Pravoslav/Orthodox, while the Eastern Cumans converted to Islam. The Catholic Diocese of the Cumania founded in Milcov in 1227 and including what is now Romania and Moldova, retained its title until 1523.

    The Cuman influence in the region of Wallachia and Moldavia was so strong that the earliest Wallachian rulers bore Cuman names. Given that the rulers Tihomir and Bassarab I governed territories formerly ruled by Romanian leaders (mentioned in the Diploma of the Joannites of 1247), and given that there is no archaeological evidence to sustain the continuous presence of a Cuman population (only Hungarian documents mentioning a toll-paying Wallachian population), the ruler elite was gradually assimilated like in Bulgaria's case by the majority population they governed, which became Romanian.

    Basarab I, son of the Wallachian prince Tihomir of Wallachia obtained independence from Hungary at the beginning of the 14th century. The name Basarab is considered as being of Cuman origin, meaning "Father King".

    Cuman influence also persisted in the Kingdom of Hungary with the Cuman language and customs persisting in autonomous Cuman territories (Kunság) until the 17th century.

    It is generally believed that the Bulgarian mediеval dynasties Asen, Shishman and Terter had some Cumans' roots.

    While the Cumans in Europe have been assimilated into other population groups, their name can still be encountered in placenames as far as the city of Kumanovo in the Northeastern part of the Republic of Macedonia, Comăneşti in Romania and Comana in Dobruja. The Cumans settled in Hungary had their own self-government there in a territory that bore their name, Kunság, that survived until the 19th century. There, the name of the Cumans (Kun) is still preserved in county names such as Bács-Kiskun and Jász-Nagykun-Szolnok and town names such as Kiskunhalas and Kunszentmiklós.

    The Cumans were organized into four tribes in Hungary (Kolbasz / Olas in the big Cumania around Karcag, and the other three in the lesser Cumania).

    The other Cuman group in Hungary is the paloc group, the name deriving from the Slav Polovetz. They live in the Northern Hungary and current Slovakia and have a specific dialect. Their Cuman origin is not documented as the other two Cuman territory but their name derives from the above word. They have a very special "a" sound close to Turkish "a", unlike Hungarian pronunciation.

    Unfortunately, the Cuman language disappeared from Hungary in the 17 century, possibly following the Turkish occupation.

    Their 19 century biographer, Gyarfas Istvan in 1870 was on the opinion that they speak Hungarian together with the Iazyges population. Despite this mistake he has the best overview on the subject concerning details of material used.

    In the countries where the Cumans were assimilated, family surnames derived from the words for "Cuman" (such as coman or kun, "kuman") are not uncommon. Among the people that have such a name are Romanian gymnast Nadia Comăneci, Romanian poet Otilia Coman (Ana Blandiana) and Romanian football player Gigel Coman. Traces of the Cumans are also the Bulgarian surname Kumanov (feminine Kumanova), its Macedonian variant Kumanovski (feminine Kumanovska) and the widespread Hungarian surname Kun.

    Lithuanians

    Lithuania entered into European history when it was first mentioned in a medieval German manuscript, the Quedlinburg Chronicle, on 14 February 1009. The Lithuanian lands were united by Mindaugas in 1236, and neighbouring countries referred to it as "the state of Lithuania". The official coronation of Mindaugas as King of Lithuania, on July 6, 1253, and the official recognition of Lithuanian statehood as the Kingdom of Lithuania.

    During the early period of the Gediminas (1316-1430), the state occupied the territories of present-day Belarus, Ukraine, and parts of Poland and Russia. By the end of the fourteenth century, Lithuania was the largest country in Europe. The Grand Duchy of Lithuania stretched across a substantial part of Europe, from the Baltic to the Black Sea. Lithuanian nobility, city dwellers and peasants accepted Christianity in 1386, following Poland's offer of its crown to Jogaila, the Grand Duke of Lithuania. Grand Duke Jogaila was crowned King of Poland on February 2, 1386. Lithuania and Poland were joined into a personal union, as both countries were ruled by the same Jagiellon dynasty.

    In 1401, the formal union was dissolved as a result of disputes over legal terminology, and Vytautas, the cousin of Jogaila, became the Grand Duke of Lithuania. Thanks to close cooperation, the armies of Poland and Lithuania achieved a great victory over Teutonic Knights in 1410 at the Battle of Grunwald, the biggest battle in medieval Europe.

    A royal crown had been bestowed upon Vytautas in 1429 by Sigismund, the Holy Roman Emperor, but Polish magnates prevented the coronation of Vytautas by seizing the crown as it was being brought to him. A new crown was ordered in Germany and a new date set for the coronation, but a month later Vytautas died in an accident.

    I'll be able to get more latter, don't want to be late for work.

  3. #33

    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod: Factions

    Many thanks for the historical background info Belisario and YLC. I have been working on the map, so I haven't had much time.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Unknown Guy
    Yes, pretty much what I meant. A resurging, harassing, assasin-using "Assasin" faction. I think it would add an addittional interest point in "Holy Land Troubles" besides crusades, Jihads, and hypothetical Byzantine reemergences.
    A sound idea but they'd need their own low loyalty province between Antioch and Tripoli, that province would be miniscule and would need to make use of a magnified submap probably placed inside where Arabia was. They would need to be able to construct a unique building cheaply to bolster the provincial loyalty otherwise they'd have difficulty holding the province down. None of this is a problem, the real issue is the alteration of the maptex file which I'd prefer to avoid (massive file to host for download etc etc) and the loss of another province to such a small faction.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Unknown Guy
    Now that wouldn't fit too well, would it? :/.
    How big is the Syrian Assasin bonus? Maybe it would suffice by itself to make them a threat. If they got conçuered, it could be assumed that the conçueror's hired assasins were actually putting funds for the warchest of the eventual "Hasashini reemergence", which would take place eventually, making it necessary to retake the province again, thus avoiding explotation of the bonus by long periods of time (if they had a comeback timer like the Papacy)
    I've already removed the Syria bonus since the first version of the Pocket Mod. The bonus itself is simply a valour bonus like those given to units. The difference is that with agents is that the bonus gives two valour stars instead of one. Since Syria no longer exists, the location of the Hashishin territory would be in the province of Aleppo, a bonus for assassins could be placed here, but as usual it could be abused and it doesn't make sense for the Turkish or Egyptian factions to be recruiting advanced assassins when in reality the assassins would have been an enemy.

  4. #34
    Cthonic God of Deception Member ULC's Avatar
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    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod: Factions

    I agree on the modification of the actual campmap. It is really unnesseccary, and even defeats the title of the mod (keyword: POCKET). On another note, any decisions yet on factions or possibilities? If your having trouble making factions from scratch, I found (not so sure about that, I sure someone else has thought of it) a rather interesting feature of factions within MTW.

    Say I use the Scots within the main campaign. But instead of using them as the Scots, I istead use them as the Islamic Volga-Bulgarians. Because of the way MTW is worked, Viking files are essentially seperate from the main campaign, so you can make whatever changes you wish to the faction within whatever campiagn your modding. So for instance, I add FN_06, set it's culture and religion to Islamic, change dependincies within the unit production so FN_06 has some units, add a few flags, and Viola! the Scots are Islamic in the Main Campaign and remian untouched within the Viking Campaign!

    I am currently experimenting with repeatedly using the FN_07 faction this way for the pagan factions, but it's not going well. I hope to have more info on this soon.

  5. #35
    Cthonic God of Deception Member ULC's Avatar
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    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod: Factions

    Any ideas on possible factions yet? I'd like to know so I can start developing units to have you look at.

    I have an for factions. Considering the "Runaway" effect, maybe we should come up with slots. For example:

    14-18 Catholic Factions
    6-8 Orthodox Factions
    6-8 Islamic Factions
    2-4 Pagan Factions

    Also, is it possible to add a Jewish or Heretic Faction?

    Another idea could be to lower the starting time of the game to 900 something, and add another era. That way we could have say the Khazar Jewish Khanagate.

  6. #36

    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod: Factions

    Quote Originally Posted by YourLordandConqueror
    Just wondering if you have decided on any new factions. Here is some Wiki info on some of the factions I have suggested.

    ...

    During the early period of the Gediminas (1316-1430), the state occupied the territories of present-day Belarus, Ukraine, and parts of Poland and Russia. By the end of the fourteenth century, Lithuania was the largest country in Europe. The Grand Duchy of Lithuania stretched across a substantial part of Europe, from the Baltic to the Black Sea. *Lithuanian nobility, city dwellers and peasants accepted Christianity in 1386,* following Poland's offer of its crown to Jogaila, the Grand Duke of Lithuania. Grand Duke Jogaila was crowned King of Poland on February 2, 1386. Lithuania and Poland were joined into a personal union, as both countries were ruled by the same Jagiellon dynasty.

    ...
    Actually, many Lithuanians began adapting Christianity, both Roman Catholicism and Greek Orthodox in at least the 1200's. Here is info. from Wiki on the matter, and there is a lot of other info. available about this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Duchy_of_Lithuania

    "Mindaugas facing extremely difficult position managed to take advantage of Livonian Order and Archbishop of Riga conflicts – he bribed Andreas von Stierland, the master of the Order, who was still angry on Vykintas for the defeat in 1236.[24] Andreas von Stierland agreed to support Mindaugas and promised help, but he also raised the condition, that pagan Mindaugas must take the Catholic faith. Mindaugas agreed to baptize and also give to the Order some lands in the western part of Lithuania for the Royal crown in return. He alongside with wife and sons was baptized in the Catholic rite in 1251. On July 17, 1251 Pope Innocent IV issued a papal bull proclaiming Lithuania as Kingdom and the state was placed under the jurisdiction of the Bishop of Rome."

    So, Lithuania was recognized as a Christian and catholic Kingdom by the Pope in Rome in 1251, even though many if not most people were still Pagans and a few were probably Orthodox due to contact with the Muscovite Principalities.

    For game terms, Lithuania is a hard nation to portray and make playable with some degree of historical accurracy.

    Chris

  7. #37

    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod: Factions

    Tried to add new factions: apparently there is some trouble with faceshields, which makes christian factions a risky addittion (requires suppressing faceshields).
    Iä Cthulhu!

  8. #38

    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod: Factions

    Faceshields have to be disabled for any mod where new factions are added, otherwise the game crashes on the battlefield I believe. It's a hardcoded limitation. The only downside is that you lose the shields that bear national "emblems", this is no real loss as such shields are ahistorical anyway.

  9. #39

    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod: Factions

    This is far from a priority and so this comment is for whenever the time comes:

    Faction standards:

    Some of them can be overhauled, primarily the "Russians", the "Spanish" and the Byzantines IMO.

    For the Byzantines i suggest something colourful that will brake the ahistorical purple *football team like* monotony - for example say



    or




    The same can be done with the "background" colours of the unit's uniforms, that is the background to be slightly different than the dominant colour of the standard in order to paint less uniform impressions for factions, that CA is sticking too and that i find somewhat too much.

    Noir

  10. #40

    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod: Factions

    The purple color comes from a mistranslation into english. In "romance languages" (Spanish, French, Italian, Portuguese, Romanian..) "purpura" refers to a deep shade of red. And in the Roman Empire (and by extension Byzantium) it was the color of the nobility. During the principate emperors wore red togas, and post Dioclecian they wore a red cape and red boots, right down to the last Byzantine Emperor
    Iä Cthulhu!

  11. #41

    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod: Factions

    Hi,

    a few suggestions that i have done already and a few that are new ones regarding to factions;

    GAMEPLAY;

    - Anatolia and the Levant can do with a few more factions, namely the Turks and Egyptian factions can be split, to teh
    1. Sultanate of Iconium (Antalya/Konya/Nicaea)
    2. Sultanate of Rum (Rum/Armenia/Sinope)
    3. Great Seljuks (Edessa/Antioch/Mosul/Alleppo)
    4. The Damascenese (Damascus/Tripoli)
    5. The Fatimids (Palestine/Egypt)

    The medieval arabic world for large tracks of time was a collection of divided fiefdoms/city states. This actually ensured the survival of teh Crusader states until Saladin took over.

    This offers the potential for these additional factions in the game that will make the are way more interesting and game progression significantly less predictable for the early setting.

    I wouldnt make the Armenians a faction in their own right - since this would entail hypothetical rosters for the high and late era which i find not nice for gameplay and historical plausibility. Representing them as a string rebel force will do.

    The arabic and turkic factions can share rosters - indeed the Ottomans that took over as ruling clan eventually were one of these fiefdoms.

    - The Hispanic Kingdoms.
    It will help considerably to add extra Catholic kingdom/principality/duchy. This will help with game progression (especially since it is allowed by all the new Iberian provinces); it ll make it less predictable. Ideally all existing major plyayers of teh time can be represented since it was by the *hand of God* - circumstances that Castile and leon merged (as well as Castile and Aragon later on).
    It will also delay the Spanish kingdoms from quickly unifying their lands and become a high game superpower - a common occurence (actually one of the achilles heels of MTW for me). This should be coupled with reducing the total agricultural wealth of the Iberian provinces that in v1.0.9 is considerable.

    The obvious candidates are the Duchy of Portugal and Kingdom of Navarre but in my opinion the most important is splitting the Castilans and Leonese.

    Again, Spanish kingdoms can share a common roster (with the addition of extra gun/pike Portuguese units in the late era).

    In the same vein it might be possible to reduce the Almohads in Mahreb (Fes/Marakkesh/Algeria/Tunisia) and introduce some of the Taifa kingodms or the Almoravids (whichever seems more historically plausible to the creator) by splitting the current (1.0.9 beta) Almoravid roster via homelands to Iberia recruitable units and Mahreb recruitable units.

    Again this multitude of factions will create more lengthy and uncertain outcomes (assuming that overall wealth and starting situations are tweaked so that all factions have a fair chance and their own advantages and disadvantages) increasing the replayability without decreasing balance.

    -Byzantium
    Given that the vision for Byzantium is to offer a tough starting setting for the early period - the only province still in Byzantine hands in Anatolia should be Trebizond.

    -Italian City States
    Given that GA mode is not encompassed by the Pom scope - the Italians can be split having in mind a spirit similar with those mentioned above (for the Levant and Iberia). The obvious choices for all eras are Milan/Genoa/Pisa(early) and Florence(late) based respectively in Milan/Genoa/Tuscany as well as the default Italian faction that can be the Venetians. One of the things that i like about the Pike and Musket mod is that it represents all Italian factions and there is indeed a tough warring competition before a clear winner is decleared.

    The Italian roster also needs more personalising in my view in order to distinguish it from its feudal neighbours into a force of high upkeep, foot based, good stat but low morale, anti cavalry and crossbow specialist militia. But i ll post in the unit section for this.


    In a similar vein a few more Russian principalities can be represented as independent, as Novgorod is in order to create a similar tough competition environment. The principality of Muscovy makes the first candidate. The steppes have a good number of provinces that allows 3 or 4 starting factions to war over them.

    My suggestion here seems to be towards a *more factions* approach - and yet this is for the sake of gameplay. In no case are (according to my suggestion) the rosters of the say Arabic kingdoms or Spanish Kingdoms meant to be *individuated*. They should stay (quasi) uniform among them creating the setting for fierce local competition that needs overcoming before one is ready for global competition. Pom attributes such as high average rebeliousness and lack of immediate access to happy buildings as border forts can make sure that re-appearances will ensure such local competitors being an issue for quite a while.



    !it burnsus!
    Last edited by gollum; 01-17-2009 at 16:35.
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  12. #42

    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod: Factions

    (cont d)

    AESTHETIC

    - I would agree with the fellow above about faction standards and faction colours. While being able to discern units in the midst of battle is a key goal to have in mind - MTW vanilla factions indeed with a bit of imagination resemble *football team* colours as he writes.

    The colours that i find alright are;

    The Turks
    The Egyptians
    The Almohads

    that is the Islamic factions feel ok colour wise IMHO.

    Ones that can be improved are;

    The Byzantines; a combination of pinkish red and golden, instead of the purple/white. This will make the opulent and religious character of the empire felt.

    Standard ideas - crux gemmata/archangels from orthodox icons/the eyes of Christ from Orthodox icons (the eyes of Christ were indeed used as a military standard - it was thought that they d paralyse the opponents particularly in wars that were thought to be fought over an injustice such for religious persecution).

    The Siculo-Norman Kingdom of Sicily - the best representation seems a clear/deep yellow and red stripe as shown here;

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Sicily

    (to be continued)

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  13. #43
    Cthonic God of Deception Member ULC's Avatar
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    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod: Factions

    I would have to disagree with just making Cilicia Armenia rebel. Cilicia was not only an independent (but admittedly weak) state at the beginning of the game, it consistently grew in power as time when on until it's fall in 1375. It was also instrumental in helping the Crusader states to grow.

    Your argument for saying that it would be fantasy to think of high and late units for Armenia is a bit false. Armenia's military structure was initially similar to the East Roman one, and was eventually "westernized" by the Crusaders, most notably the French principality of Antioch.

    Also, not to bring in another game really, but have you ever played Broken Cresent? Yes, it is for M2tw, but it has a well researched Cilicia Armenia in it, and one could use the units and information from that.

    That is not to say I disagree with your other assertions about factions however, but we only have limited faction slots, and those faction need to be given to deserving, unique, and fun factions.

    This would be my list
    Principality of Cilicia Armenia
    Kingdom of Georgia
    Duchy of Venice
    Duchy of Pisa
    Emirate of Damascus
    Sultanate of Iconium
    Khanate of Volga-Bulgaria
    Duchy of Lithuania
    Duchy of Aquitaine
    Duchy of Portugal
    Kingdom of Bohemia (Or Emirate of the Zirids)

  14. #44

    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod: Factions

    Quote Originally Posted by gollum View Post
    - Anatolia and the Levant can do with a few more factions, namely the Turks and Egyptian factions can be split, to teh
    1. Sultanate of Iconium (Antalya/Konya/Nicaea)
    2. Sultanate of Rum (Rum/Armenia/Sinope)
    3. Great Seljuks (Edessa/Antioch/Mosul/Alleppo)
    I haven't time to reply to everything just yet. :

    The Seljuk Sultanate of Konya (Iconium) is in fact the Seljuk Sultanate of Rum. They are the very same. The Great Seljuk Empire is a separate faction. I have always had a problem with these as the provinces on the map are only a tiny fraction of their territory, but still...

    As to the Byzantine territories, those that I have in the early period at present are as close as I can get it to the early era, handing more territories to the Turkic peoples in 1087 would look and feel wrong.

    When it comes to a matter of new factions, there is a lot of work - and artwork involved which I don't not have the time nor the necessary skill to engage in. If others wish to take this on they are free to do so.

    Last edited by caravel; 01-18-2009 at 00:42.

  15. #45
    Cthonic God of Deception Member ULC's Avatar
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    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod: Factions

    Quote Originally Posted by Caravel View Post
    I haven't time to reply to everything just yet. :

    The Seljuk Sultanate of Konya (Iconium) is in fact the Seljuk Sultanate of Rum. They are the very same. The Great Seljuk Empire is a separate faction. I have always had a problem with these as the provinces on the map are only a tiny fraction of their territory, but still...

    As to the Byzantine territories, those that I have in the early period at present are as close as I can get it to the early era, handing more territories to the Turkic peoples in 1087 would look and feel wrong.

    When it comes to a matter of new factions, there is a lot of work - and artwork involved which I don't not have the time nor the necessary skill to engage in. If others wish to take this on they are free to do so.

    May I ask what you think of my faction list then? I wish for your insightful critique and approval before working on it. If it does not fit the Pocket Mods aims, then it would be a bit pointless to put to much effort into it.

  16. #46
    Senior Member Senior Member naut's Avatar
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    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod: Factions

    I'd gladly offer what little help can provide.

    And yes I agree with YLC, starting work on factions just for the sake of working on them would be a waste of time. Firstly how many can be added, and how many would, in terms of gameplay, you want to add? Secondly where would they be placed? Which areas need or can handle more factions?
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  17. #47

    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod: Factions

    Well so far I can see the point in adding Portugal and for splitting Castile-Leon into two factions. Apart from that I'm not entirely convinced.

    Taking Damascus as an example. This province would have had periods of independence in between being part of the Fatimid Caliphate and the Ayyubids. None of these periods warrant making a faction of it. So rebel or perhaps Seljuk is the best designation for this province as it would have been ruled by Seljuk dynasties up until Salah al-Din coming on the scene.

    I don't much like the idea of Cilician Armenia but it probably qualifies more as an independant faction than some of the others mentioned.

    It would be a good idea to place more factions in the Mahgreb. This region only ever has one faction at a time.

  18. #48

    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod: Factions

    The Seljuk Sultanate of Konya (Iconium) is in fact the Seljuk Sultanate of Rum. They are the very same.
    Indeed - however it was divided in a number of semi-independent Beyliks. These were fighting from time to time against each other as much as against outsiders. In gameplay terms as you say it would be too much to assign all Anatolia to a single Turkic power. A split however would work well in abstracting a very complex reality. The Byzantines played often these Beyliks against each other and in fact survived for about 100 years more past 1320 because of this lack of unity among the Anatolian Turcs that pulverised with the advent of the Ottomans as the ruling *clan* in Anatolia.

    As to the Byzantine territories, those that I have in the early period at present are as close as I can get it to the early era, handing more territories to the Turkic peoples in 1087 would look and feel wrong.
    Without wanting to press my case i ll just mention the arguments pro;

    1. its historical - no one knows how the course of the power struggle in the area would have gone if the Crusaders hadnt give back a number of important towns to the Byzs.

    2. its (in my view) good for gameplay as it will add fierce competition between Turks and Turks and Turks and Byzs.

    The last call is of course yours.



    When it comes to a matter of new factions, there is a lot of work - and artwork involved which I don't not have the time nor the necessary skill to engage in. If others wish to take this on they are free to do so.


    !it burnsus!
    Last edited by gollum; 01-18-2009 at 14:35.
    The Caravel Mod: a (very much) improvedvanilla MTW/VI v2.1 early campaign

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  19. #49

    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod: Factions

    Well so far I can see the point in adding Portugal and for splitting Castile-Leon into two factions.

    It would be a good idea to place more factions in the Mahgreb. This region only ever has one faction at a time.
    If so then the Iberian theater and Mahreb may turn into real grinders as they deserve since they are well represented in terms of provinces.

    The same in my view can be said about Anatolia and the Levant - they are well represented with the PoM map and collectivelly (together) they can bear one or two more factions that may add to the PoM more unique character as well as additional gameplay depth. This is all the more so as the map alterations seem complete in that area.



    !it burnsus!
    The Caravel Mod: a (very much) improvedvanilla MTW/VI v2.1 early campaign

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  20. #50

    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod: Factions

    Well I don't see it as being my "last call", because if it was then I'd say quite simply "add no more factions". Though something tells me that a few extra factions in the right places might be a good idea. It's worth bearing in mind that we are working in the early era only and that only factions that should be around in that era should be of concern.

    I am happy for someone else to take over the new factions part of the mod. What is need is an impartial factions debate. If you assume that in the end it's up to me, then we won't make much progress.

    So far YLC and gollum are coming up with some of the more realistic ideas (I'm impressed that no one has mentioned the Irish and Swedes as yet!).

    Once the factions have been decided on I'm quite happy for the responsibility for them to be divided out. For example if someone wants to concentrate on a particular theatre, culture or just a particular bit of the map, then I'm fine with that.

    I'd advise however that the Muslim factions be taken as one theatre, including the Byzantines and any minor factions and that Spain and the Maghreb be taken as another. This will ensure that areas are balanced. The same goes for the Turks. If you're working on the Turks or Armenia then you will need to balance them against the Byzantine and other neighburs. I would prefer that the Byzantine were left alone as I feel that enough work has been done on them already. As for the Turks, they can easily be divided into two factions but keeping the same units. I have no problem with a faction having the same units.

    As I said what is needed is a debate as to why factions are needed in specific areas. I think Iberia and the Mahgreb is an obvious one whereas in other areas it is not so clear.

  21. #51

    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod: Factions

    Posted by YLC
    I would have to disagree with just making Cilicia Armenia rebel. Cilicia was not only an independent (but admittedly weak) state at the beginning of the game, it consistently grew in power as time when on until it's fall in 1375. It was also instrumental in helping the Crusader states to grow.

    Your argument for saying that it would be fantasy to think of high and late units for Armenia is a bit false. Armenia's military structure was initially similar to the East Roman one, and was eventually "westernized" by the Crusaders, most notably the French principality of Antioch.

    Also, not to bring in another game really, but have you ever played Broken Cresent? Yes, it is for M2tw, but it has a well researched Cilicia Armenia in it, and one could use the units and information from that.
    Thanks for the info and the very interesting post. In fact i have dedicated very little time in M2 - its putting me greatly off. I have noticed that BC is a popular and well researched mod, together with SS as well as Retrofit , however i am very slow in getting on with M2 due to disliking what i perceive as its cartoonishness, lack of true strategy in the strategic portion and the despicable battle mechanics and general engine quirks that ruin gameplay for me.



    This would be my list
    Principality of Cilicia Armenia
    Kingdom of Georgia
    Duchy of Venice
    Duchy of Pisa
    Emirate of Damascus
    Sultanate of Iconium
    Khanate of Volga-Bulgaria
    Duchy of Lithuania
    Duchy of Aquitaine
    Duchy of Portugal
    Kingdom of Bohemia (Or Emirate of the Zirids)
    Aquitaine certainly gets my vote. Something may be said about the Duchy of Brittany that could start with Brittany and Anjou as territories.

    Aquitaine will provide the necessary wedge between England, France and the Spanish kingdoms in the south - instead of having the southern french provinces as a battle ground between the Spaniards and French/English. it would also provide a another competitor for the french area that is historical and good for gameplay. The same can be get out of introducing Brittany/Anjou as well as a powerful french Duchy.

    I second Pisa and i would add Genoa to the mix for the Italians - it has been done by many other mods but its so imperative for the setting and period that if the Italians are split its hard to avoid.

    Georgia and Armenia can be done and they would hardly brake the current balance in the area as they start with one Province. BC has a map that extents however deep in the east - unlike the MTW map that is sliced off even before the Caspian sea appears in view. In this respect a faction like georgia is unlikely to face the challenges and power balance that it may face in BC. The MTW map is simply not detailed enough in that are in my view.

    Cilician Armenia is viable as you say - i wouldnt do it this way, but your arguments perfectly stand.

    Volga-Bulgaria and Lithuania - they are obviuos candidates for the steppe area. Both existed and were influencial over time. In addition MTW/VI has certain units that can obviously be assigned to them and make up a roster in PoM style quickly and easily. I concur for both of them as hey will enhance gameplay and add in terms of historical plausibility and feel.

    Duchy of portugal gets my vote, as Navarre yet as i wrote they are both secondary in regards to the kingdom of Leon.

    I disagree with the kingdom of Bohemia - while semi-independent and independent at times its best left as a part of HRE - having a HRE replacement as in XL its not to my taste. Also if Bohemia is to be made a kingdom the area its set (Poland, Austria and Bohemia itself) needs splitting.

    Sultanate of Iconium and Great Seljuks i fully concur.

    Emirate of Damascus is good addition however - i understand caravels view that it can be left under the Arabic or Turkic empires of the area as it did little than being semi-independent and independent at most at times.

    Emirate of the Zirids gets my vote - i am all for mahreb extra muslim factions rather than the Almoravids/hads being the only one. This was an area of fiefdoms and civil wars and the Almohads were a product of that local grinder.

    The danger with going in a faction spree is to go in a corresponding unit spree - personalise all factions. This is bad for the gameplay the battle engine simply does not have the range for the 100 units of vanilla - they are already too many. i am all for more factions that are historical unique and warranted in terms of map and gameply - but i do not advocate to inflate the unit pool. My suggestion is to have a roster per culture/area and the factions there to share them. The unit pool should be drawn directly from vanilla and simply be modified as becesary to become reasonably accessible for the player and the AI factions - to make sure there are no redundancies and to add a hint of flavor and spice, in my opinion.



    !it burnsus!
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  22. #52
    Cthonic God of Deception Member ULC's Avatar
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    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod: Factions

    Quote Originally Posted by gollum View Post
    Thanks for the info and the very interesting post. In fact i have dedicated very little time in M2 - its putting me greatly off. I have noticed that BC is a popular and well researched mod, together with SS as well as Retrofit , however i am very slow in getting on with M2 due to disliking what i perceive as its cartoonishness, lack of true strategy in the strategic portion and the despicable battle mechanics and general engine quirks that ruin gameplay for me.

    Oh, I play M2TW for the features If MTW had the same modding or internal gameplay mechanics, you'd think I pay it any attention? I can admit to liking the graphics a bit, if only because I'd like to be able to port some of the unit designs over into MTW

    Quote Originally Posted by gollum View Post
    Aquitaine certainly gets my vote. Something may be said about the Duchy of Brittany that could start with Brittany and Anjou as territories.

    Aquitaine will provide the necessary wedge between England, France and the Spanish kingdoms in the south - instead of having the southern french provinces as a battle ground between the Spaniards and French/English. it would also provide a another competitor for the french area that is historical and good for gameplay. The same can be get out of introducing Brittany/Anjou as well as a powerful french Duchy.
    And that's my thoughts exactly. It would be quite a contender in it's own right, and could actually keep the French and Spanish in check, which is needed (The four usual superpowers by high are Spain, France, Egypt, and Byzantines). Also, Aquitaine's army was much light then Frances, depending more on skirmishers, archers, and light cavalry, rather then raw brute force (Of course they would have a few heavy units)

    Quote Originally Posted by gollum View Post
    I second Pisa and i would add Genoa to the mix for the Italians - it has been done by many other mods but its so imperative for the setting and period that if the Italians are split its hard to avoid.
    Actually, Genoa would already be in. The Factions I suggested are only using up the empty slots, so the "Italians" would become Genoa (Milan/Genoa) with Venice (Venice/Dalmatia), and Pisa (Tuscany/Corsica) created. With the Papacy and Sicilians however, it might be quite crowded.


    Quote Originally Posted by gollum View Post
    Georgia and Armenia can be done and they would hardly break the current balance in the area as they start with one Province. BC has a map that extents however deep in the east - unlike the MTW map that is sliced off even before the Caspian sea appears in view. In this respect a faction like Georgia is unlikely to face the challenges and power balance that it may face in BC. The MTW map is simply not detailed enough in that are in my view.

    Cilician Armenia is viable as you say - I wouldn't do it this way, but your arguments perfectly stand.
    The main reason for including Armenia and Georgia is that they would create balance. Every Faction needs competitors - Georgia can be both the competitor for the Volga-Bulgars, Kievians, and the Seljuks, while Armenia would compete with the Byzantines, Iconium, and whoever is in the Levant.

    Also, both factions would fall under "Orthodox" and I like Orthodox factions

    Speaking of a map, I have one that does extend all the way to the Caspian, but Caravel has rejected it due to the fact he would have to redo much of his work on the map. However, if I am able to somehow fit what Caravel has currently on to it, would you except it then Caravel?

    I can easily get the data for both Factions from BC (with their permission).

    Quote Originally Posted by gollum View Post
    Volga-Bulgaria and Lithuania - they are obvious candidates for the steppe area. Both existed and were influential over time. In addition MTW/VI has certain units that can obviously be assigned to them and make up a roster in PoM style quickly and easily. I concur for both of them as hey will enhance gameplay and add in terms of historical plausibility and feel.


    Quote Originally Posted by gollum View Post
    Duchy of Portugal gets my vote, as Navarre yet as I wrote they are both secondary in regards to the kingdom of Leon.
    The reason I included Portugal was it's increasing influence overtime - even into this day, where as many states and nations during this time cannot say the same!

    Your argument for a Leon AND Castile is an interesting one, but a bit hard to do inside MTW. By the start of the game, the two kingdoms have been in union for over 50 years and would continue to remain in union until 1157 and not be rejoined until 1230, for the last time. For all intents and purposes, this is like having a single territory revolt. Portugal IMHO is different enough, and valid enough, to warrant a spot more then Leon AND Castile

    Quote Originally Posted by gollum View Post
    I disagree with the kingdom of Bohemia - while semi-independent and independent at times its best left as a part of HRE - having a HRE replacement as in XL its not to my taste. Also if Bohemia is to be made a kingdom the area its set (Poland, Austria and Bohemia itself) needs splitting.
    I believe Caravel spoke of splitting up that area, correct me if I am wrong. I placed Bohemia there if only for another "German" faction. Not a very strong argument besides what you mention above .

    Quote Originally Posted by gollum View Post
    Sultanate of Iconium and Great Seljuks I fully concur.


    Quote Originally Posted by gollum View Post
    Emirate of Damascus is good addition however - I understand caravels view that it can be left under the Arabic or Turkic empires of the area as it did little than being semi-independent and independent at most at times.
    True - no one that held the Levant was in a real position of power. However, only Damascus ever held onto the entirety of the Levant, and maintain it's independence. Just as well, it was ruled by an offshoot of the Turks, that is correct, but it never really fell back under the Great Seljuks influence again, and if we want a Levantine faction, they are really the only option.

    Quote Originally Posted by gollum View Post
    Emirate of the Zirids gets my vote - I am all for mahreb extra muslim factions rather than the Almoravids/hads being the only one. This was an area of fiefdoms and civil wars and the Almohads were a product of that local grinder.
    Well, it is either the Zirids (Tunisia) or the Hammadids (Algeria). The Zirids would most likely end up moving through Italy once the Sicilians are gone, and the Hammadids would expand into Almohad territory. The Hammadid's have two things in their favor though - they lasted longer then the Zirids, and ingame would not be immediately wiped out by the Sicilians (who almost always go after Tunisia).

    Quote Originally Posted by gollum View Post
    The danger with going in a faction spree is to go in a corresponding unit spree - personalize all factions. This is bad for the gameplay the battle engine simply does not have the range for the 100 units of vanilla - they are already too many. I am all for more factions that are historical unique and warranted in terms of map and gameplay - but I do not advocate to inflate the unit pool. My suggestion is to have a roster per culture/area and the factions there to share them. The unit pool should be drawn directly from vanilla and simply be modified as necessary to become reasonably accessible for the player and the AI factions - to make sure there are no redundancies and to add a hint of flavor and spice, in my opinion.



    !it burnsus!
    That's essentially the same theory I tried to use in my Dark Age mod. There were "cultural" rosters, with a few of those cultural units replaced by that factions 2-4 unique units. I think I still have the info floating around - I will repost it here so we can discuss the merits and organization of it further.


  23. #53

    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod: Factions

    I can admit to liking the graphics a bit,
    no worries, i admit liking the graphics a lot. Its unfortunately the only thing i like though.

    No one showed this best other than Sin; here are my favorite of his masterful editor videos;
    Crusaders vs Turks
    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Zs5aDpjq0nM
    Ottomans vs Kingdom of Hungary
    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_bcaAW...e=channel_page
    battle of ravenna
    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=BubXmP...e=channel_page

    I watch them for inspiration before... playing MTW

    And that's my thoughts exactly. It would be quite a contender in it's own right, and could actually keep the French and Spanish in check,
    This actually works precisely that way - i have modded in Burgundy as a Aquitaine/Brittany/Anjou - *western french duchies unite* faction - and it made a substantial difference in gameplay.


    With the Papacy and Sicilians however, it might be quite crowded.
    it can be balanced even so - the key in my opinion is to make the Italian factions have very strict homelands and particular rosters. Then - they wont be able to expand beyond the Italian north in a bulldozer fashion they ll need to depend on their homelands for troops.

    Your argument for a Leon AND Castile is an interesting one, but a bit hard to do inside MTW. By the start of the game, the two kingdoms have been in union for over 50 years and would continue to remain in union until 1157 and not be rejoined until 1230, for the last time. For all intents and purposes, this is like having a single territory revolt. Portugal IMHO is different enough, and valid enough, to warrant a spot more then Leon AND Castile
    All iberian kingdoms were allies and yet bitterly contested each other - my aim in terms of gameplay would be to achieve an unpredictable development were Leon or Castile or Aragon or Portugal may end up the leading power in the area. The division is meant to represent the simple reality that castile and Leon didnt act uniformly and optimally in a modern government fashion against their enemies.

    This lack of unity again prevented the Spanish kingdoms in taking out the Moors of the equation quickly and efficiently. It took centuries of fighting to accomplish this feat, because among other reasons the local players had to have a strong motive to come together like say major Almohad incursions.

    However, only Damascus ever held onto the entirety of the Levant, and maintain it's independence. Just as well, it was ruled by an offshoot of the Turks, that is correct, but it never really fell back under the Great Seljuks influence again, and if we want a Levantine faction, they are really the only option.
    i actually suggested the Damascenese as an independent faction almost a month back independently. I agree with you.

    There were "cultural" rosters, with a few of those cultural units replaced by that factions 2-4 unique units.
    Yes this is the middle ground approach that can enmesh balance and flavor - the spice of uniqueness with the benefits of uniformity.



    !it burnsus!
    Last edited by gollum; 01-18-2009 at 21:19.
    The Caravel Mod: a (very much) improvedvanilla MTW/VI v2.1 early campaign

    Please make sure you have the latest version (v3.3)
    Since v3.3 the Caravel Mod includes customised campaigns for huge and default unit settings

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  24. #54

    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod: Factions

    Quote Originally Posted by YLC View Post
    Speaking of a map, I have one that does extend all the way to the Caspian, but Caravel has rejected it due to the fact he would have to redo much of his work on the map. However, if I am able to somehow fit what Caravel has currently on to it, would you except it then Caravel?
    Is this a finished, Maptex2.tga and LUKUPMAP2.lbm? If it extends to the caspian how does it overcome the hardcoded province limit?


  25. #55

    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod: Factions

    As for Damascus, I've been looking into the various dynasties a bit more and I think the Burid Emirs might be the closest to what you want. The Zengids would be too late, so we'd have to leave them until the high era, once we get around to that.

  26. #56
    Cthonic God of Deception Member ULC's Avatar
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    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod: Factions

    Quote Originally Posted by Caravel View Post
    Is this a finished, Maptex2.tga and LUKUPMAP2.lbm? If it extends to the caspian how does it overcome the hardcoded province limit?

    It is a finished MapTex2.tga, but the LBM provided has provinces set for a more Dark Age era and may be insufficient for your needs. It was made with Lukmapmaker by Omarpacha.

    Link

  27. #57

    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod: Factions

    And how does it overcome the total number of provinces restriction?

  28. #58
    Cthonic God of Deception Member ULC's Avatar
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    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod: Factions

    Thats the "problem" it doesn't, and I wish it did. However, how many provinces do you have left? IIRC serves, you still have many left since all you have done is reassignment, correct?

  29. #59

    Default Re: MTW Pocket Mod: Factions

    I'll need to check that, but I haven't only done reassignment. I've used about 4 of the surplus provinces up as well.

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