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Thread: Sea Movement and the Cimbri/Teutons Invasion

  1. #1
    Bruadair a'Bruaisan Member cmacq's Avatar
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    Default Sea Movement and the Cimbri/Teutons Invasion

    As you may know I’m somewhat new to EB. Downloaded it late last month. I must say overall, EB is a vast improvement over TW-R. You’ve fixed all of the major inherent TW-R problems. Now, am I to understand that today, October12th, marks the introduction of a new (as I've read much improved) EB version? I’ve reviewed the changes and they're extremely well thought out. Great would be an understatement as I plan to download it soon.

    Yet, I’ve two small additional questions?

    (1) By the 4th BC sea movement within a 90 day period easily reached anywhere in the Mediterranean. In fact, this appears to be the sailing time for Greek merchantmen departing southern France for southwest Britain (please see Pytheas’ "Peri Tou Okeanou" [Latin font]).

    I know all movement in the game has been abstracted and the basic maritime aspect comes from TW-R. Yet one can not traverse the Italian Peninsula in 90 days and it takes several years to cross the Mediterranean Basin? This seems a bit light? Rapid naval redeployment of their ground armies was critical to Roman expansion outside of and military maintenance within Italy (ie. Tolemon campaign, Punic campaigns, Cimbri/Teuton Invasion, Slave Wars, 1st century Civil Wars).

    Has the EB design team considered increasing the per-turn range of some types of naval units? Also it seems that certain types of sea craft preformed well, as far as range was concerned, in one realm (general maritime region) but not in others. Finally, the end of the 1st question, have you considered giving loaded ground troops on ships the ablity to fight as marines to increase/enhance Roman naval attack strenght (see as this tipped the scale in the 1st Punic War)?

    (2) I see you addressed a Swabian Military Reform and its association with the Cimbri/Teutons. As you may know one of the most significant events between the 2nd Punic War and the Civil Wars of the 1st century was the sudden appearance of Cimberi/Teutons late in the 2nd century on the north Euro. frontier. Because of the nature of their early history (Keltic capture of Rome, Hannibal’s Kelts, and reconquest of the north Italian Kelts) this event scared the holy be-Jesus out of the Romans (ie. terror cimbricus).

    Forced by the devastation of their homeland due to one or more North Sea quakes and associated tsunami (see Strabo), the Cimberi/Teutoni invasion was finally halted by Marius in southern France and later northern Italy (yes Sulla is given credit here). This Cimberi/Teutoni invasion of more than a half million people resulted in the direct ruin of the northern Iberian, Gallic, and Boii (Kelto-germanic confederation) economies and politics; opened the door for Swabian dominance in Germany (and forced the mid 1st century Usipeti/Tencterian invasion of 450,000 people) and later attempted expansion in Gaul, and the outright destruction of several very large Roman armies.

    Their final defeat also catapulted the career of Marius into the upper troposphere (helped Sulla as well), and flooded the Italian markets with many hundreds of thousands of slaves, which in turn contributed to the early 1st century Italian slave revolts and all that associated with the increased status of the Roman rich (cheap labor, lower costs, richer, bigger estates, fewer small farms, more landless young Latin men; better trained and larger permanent armies) and accelerated the end of the Republic. If Marius was not as capable as he was, Rome may never have become a world-class empire?

    This event may be similar to the hordes demonstrated in TW-BI. I see you have inserted a simlar change called the Yuezhi Invasion. Has the EB design team considered including the sudden appearance of a Cimberi/Teutoni or so-named Eleutheroi horde in Denmark sometime in the late 2nd century?

    If the EB team has already considered a naval movement change and a Cimbric Event please disregard.
    Last edited by cmacq; 10-13-2007 at 09:12.
    quae res et cibi genere et cotidiana exercitatione et libertate vitae

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  2. #2
    EB2 Baseless Conjecturer Member blacksnail's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sea Movement and the Cimbri/Teutons Invasion

    Naval movement rates pretty much have to remain where they are because of the turn-based nature of the game. The same for overland movement rates. Otherwise everybody teleports everywhere and the AI breaks completely.

    Also, there is no way we can modify the game to turn troops on ships into marines - hardcoding prevents us. Good idea, though!

  3. #3
    Bruadair a'Bruaisan Member cmacq's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sea Movement and the Cimbri/Teutons Invasion

    Thank you, I understand completely
    quae res et cibi genere et cotidiana exercitatione et libertate vitae

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    EB II Romani Consul Suffectus Member Zaknafien's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sea Movement and the Cimbri/Teutons Invasion

    I have long been an advocate of a scripted Cimbri/Teutones invasion, but most of the team would disagree with me, with good reason, as EB doesnt re-write history, we merely set the stage accurately and let it play out. Who is to say the same conditions would exist in your EB game as to cause the tribes to migrate en masse?


    "urbani, seruate uxores: moechum caluom adducimus. / aurum in Gallia effutuisti, hic sumpsisti mutuum." --Suetonius, Life of Caesar

  5. #5

    Default Re: Sea Movement and the Cimbri/Teutons Invasion

    But so far i know the Yhuezi invasion doesn't take place if certain pre set conditions are met?
    The same could be made for the Cimbri/Teutoni.

  6. #6
    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sea Movement and the Cimbri/Teutons Invasion

    Then again, the Yuezhi come out of a region beyond the edge of the campaign map, whereas the C&T would pretty much have to crawl out of the woodwork in what are more likely than not decently developed faction provinces...
    It's not like they'd be suddenly rolling out of northern Scandinavia or anything after all.
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

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  7. #7

    Default Re: Sea Movement and the Cimbri/Teutons Invasion

    Rebells pop out from nowhere too. I would have no problem with this :)

  8. #8
    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sea Movement and the Cimbri/Teutons Invasion

    I'd say a bunch of rowdy mercs, troublemaking local warriors, major bandit packs, minor aristocrats with delusions of grandeur, disgruntled peasants etc. that the random-spawning rebel stacks represent were a bit different thing from a full-blown migration-cum-invasion tho'...
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

    -Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

  9. #9
    EB II Romani Consul Suffectus Member Zaknafien's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sea Movement and the Cimbri/Teutons Invasion

    I've often concepted dynamic conditions that would cause such a migration. Say, if the homelands of the Cimbri or Teutones were occupied by a non-Sweboz faction, or even perhaps the Sweboz if the right kind of government were installed, a mass exodus would spawn, with messages indicating such to every player in the region: "Imperator/Chieftan etc, an entire nation of people have begun to travel because of ..." and many (5 or 6) full stack armies would spawn.

    Problem is, we cant make spawned armies do anything, and usually they just sit around. Maybe in M2TW.


    "urbani, seruate uxores: moechum caluom adducimus. / aurum in Gallia effutuisti, hic sumpsisti mutuum." --Suetonius, Life of Caesar

  10. #10
    EBII Mod Leader Member Foot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sea Movement and the Cimbri/Teutons Invasion

    Watchman is right on the money, the Yeuzhi invasion is absolutely fine to work with as the conditions for it appear outside of the EB map, where we assume that history takes its course as usual. The Cimbri invasion has conditions within the map, which makes things more difficult. Whilst dynamic reforms may be possible, as Zaknafien rightly points out, they wouldn't do anything (which kinda defeats the point of having them).

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  11. #11

    Default Re: Sea Movement and the Cimbri/Teutons Invasion

    Ok this might not be historically correct but wjatabput leting the Cimbri/Teutoni come from out of the map by ships?

  12. #12
    EB II Romani Consul Suffectus Member Zaknafien's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sea Movement and the Cimbri/Teutons Invasion

    why on earth, for the sake of pete, would we ever do something like that?


    We might as well make EB: Atlantean Invasion


    "urbani, seruate uxores: moechum caluom adducimus. / aurum in Gallia effutuisti, hic sumpsisti mutuum." --Suetonius, Life of Caesar

  13. #13
    Bruadair a'Bruaisan Member cmacq's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sea Movement and the Cimbri/Teutons Invasion

    There is evidence that this event also set in motion the large scale de-Kelt/Balt-ification of much of Germany and the rise of the Nordic Swabian confederation. Second and first century BC Hellenic and Latin texts mention many of the tribes found in Germany, that are nearly all either gone from history or resettled west of the Rhine by the mid 2nd century AD.

    I'm just saying it could be a kind of wild-card to keep the Romans and Greeks always guessing, and looking to the north as they did historically?
    Last edited by cmacq; 10-13-2007 at 14:33.
    quae res et cibi genere et cotidiana exercitatione et libertate vitae

    Herein events and rations daily birth the labors of freedom.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Sea Movement and the Cimbri/Teutons Invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaknafien
    why on earth, for the sake of pete, would we ever do something like that?


    We might as well make EB: Atlantean Invasion
    Hey no means to be rude. I was just brainstorming to have a moveable eleuteroi army.

  15. #15
    EBII Mod Leader Member Foot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sea Movement and the Cimbri/Teutons Invasion

    How would that make them moveable anyway? I mean, they wouldn't even appear anywhere near where they historically appeared

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  16. #16

    Default Re: Sea Movement and the Cimbri/Teutons Invasion

    They could land in Jutland (the supposed historical homeland of the Cimbri) disband the ships and go on wandering and sacking througout europe.

  17. #17
    Bruadair a'Bruaisan Member cmacq's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sea Movement and the Cimbri/Teutons Invasion

    Don't forget the Usipeti/Tencterian Invasion of nearly a half million in the mid 1st century BC, which was caused by Swabian expansion within Germany, and slamed by GJC before it got off the ground. Right, Caesar saved the republic one more time just like Marius and Sulla about 50 yrs earlier.
    Last edited by cmacq; 10-13-2007 at 13:40.
    quae res et cibi genere et cotidiana exercitatione et libertate vitae

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    EB II Romani Consul Suffectus Member Zaknafien's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sea Movement and the Cimbri/Teutons Invasion

    you dont see the problem--we cant make a scripted army, even on boats, go where we want them to go. Theres no telling if they will land in Jutland or in Asia MInor, or if they'll even land at all.

    Like I said, this would be great, maybe we can do it in EB II.


    "urbani, seruate uxores: moechum caluom adducimus. / aurum in Gallia effutuisti, hic sumpsisti mutuum." --Suetonius, Life of Caesar

  19. #19

    Default Re: Sea Movement and the Cimbri/Teutons Invasion

    Ah ok. I understand. So the Yuhezi, too, would only emerge and then wander wherever the KI is pleased to go?

  20. #20
    Bruadair a'Bruaisan Member cmacq's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sea Movement and the Cimbri/Teutons Invasion

    Right spawned armies just set there? That would be a problem. No way of treating spawned armies as the crusader armies in M-TW? That is giving stacks random destination provinces in western Anatolia, Balkans, Spain, and/or Italy?
    Last edited by cmacq; 10-13-2007 at 18:40.
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    Member Member Bonny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sea Movement and the Cimbri/Teutons Invasion

    Right spawned armys just set there? That would be a problem. No way of treating spawned armies as the crusader armies in M-TW? That is giving stacks random destination provinces in western Anatolia, Balkans, Spain, and/or Italy?
    I'm sorry no way, this feature won't make it in EB1 but as far as i know MTW2 has greater modding possibilities in this area, so that this feature might be something that could be done in EB 2. imho it would add more depth to the game, especially in regards of the Marian reforms. We will see.
    Last edited by Bonny; 10-13-2007 at 15:58.


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    EB II Romani Consul Suffectus Member Zaknafien's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sea Movement and the Cimbri/Teutons Invasion

    in EB II, we can probably use the Jihad function to make spawned armies target specific territories, no?


    "urbani, seruate uxores: moechum caluom adducimus. / aurum in Gallia effutuisti, hic sumpsisti mutuum." --Suetonius, Life of Caesar

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    EB annoying hornet Member bovi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sea Movement and the Cimbri/Teutons Invasion

    I don't think rebels can crusade.

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  24. #24
    Bruadair a'Bruaisan Member cmacq's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sea Movement and the Cimbri/Teutons Invasion

    Well then thats a rap on this subject. Thanks for all the info.
    quae res et cibi genere et cotidiana exercitatione et libertate vitae

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    EB II Romani Consul Suffectus Member Zaknafien's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sea Movement and the Cimbri/Teutons Invasion

    Not all. I have an idea...


    "urbani, seruate uxores: moechum caluom adducimus. / aurum in Gallia effutuisti, hic sumpsisti mutuum." --Suetonius, Life of Caesar

  26. #26
    Bruadair a'Bruaisan Member cmacq's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sea Movement and the Cimbri/Teutons Invasion

    Not to beat a dead horse too badly, but have another question concerning Roman marines (question #1, part 3, above). Could a naval commander be given a random trait (such as ‘grapple-drawbridge thingie builder’) that comes and goes which increases the chance an enemy craft would be captured if it attacks or defends against a Roman naval unit while transporting troops?
    Last edited by cmacq; 10-13-2007 at 20:39.
    quae res et cibi genere et cotidiana exercitatione et libertate vitae

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    EB II Romani Consul Suffectus Member Zaknafien's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sea Movement and the Cimbri/Teutons Invasion

    Impossible. Its called a corvus ("raven") btw.


    "urbani, seruate uxores: moechum caluom adducimus. / aurum in Gallia effutuisti, hic sumpsisti mutuum." --Suetonius, Life of Caesar

  28. #28
    Bruadair a'Bruaisan Member cmacq's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sea Movement and the Cimbri/Teutons Invasion

    right, ships cant be captured. I must have games mixed up?
    quae res et cibi genere et cotidiana exercitatione et libertate vitae

    Herein events and rations daily birth the labors of freedom.

  29. #29
    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sea Movement and the Cimbri/Teutons Invasion

    I always figured marine complements and the like were already factored into the warship stats anyway, boarding tactics being common enough. It's not like dedicated warships could actually carry that many men on top of their actual crew in the first place (not in the least given that most of them moved under oars in battle...), and conversely the kinds of ships that made for decent troop carriers tended to be, well, transports. Which is to say more or less designed to move stuff around cost-effectively, not fight.

    Megalomanical weirdnesses like those crackpot giant polymeres nonwithstanding.
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

    -Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

  30. #30
    Bruadair a'Bruaisan Member cmacq's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sea Movement and the Cimbri/Teutons Invasion

    Just finished some quick research on the marine-corvus combo. Seems it was only effective for a very short period of time. I didn't know that, so junk that idea.
    quae res et cibi genere et cotidiana exercitatione et libertate vitae

    Herein events and rations daily birth the labors of freedom.

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