AI Battle Formation Mods

[AlExal]

I tried all AI mods and liked Sinuhet's AI most of all.
But there is a problem: elephants behave themself rather stupid.
Instead of crashing enemy orders they stay aside and throw missles. It seems that AI can't use them. Is there a way to solve this problem?

[Lysander13]

Originally Posted by AlExal

I tried all AI mods and liked Sinuhet's AI most of all.

That makes 2 of us.

But there is a problem: elephants behave themself rather stupid.
Instead of crashing enemy orders they stay aside and throw missles. It seems that AI can't use them. Is there a way to solve this problem?

Well the AI in general is rather stupid no matter what formations are being used....but hell, stupid AI is a rather common theme in most computer games. More to the point, i take it you mean you've seen elephant units discharge all their missiles and then do nothing but sit there? or do you just want them to barrel into battle lines and missiles be damned? Anyhow, I have seen both occur as i'm sure most who have played RTW for any length of time...Not necessarily using Sinuhet Formations for EB ( not yet anyway..but i'm sure i will at some point )..i've seen it in Vanilla and other formation mods, not to mention other mods in general that say they have "optimized" settings to go along with their formation systems. So to answer question..**shrugs**
who knows?..your guess is as good as mine. For a more so to speak detailed answer...this has to do with the battlefield role flags as of course everything on the battlefield is as it's relative to formations but what's not absolutely clear to me sometimes it's how these flags interact with hardcoded AI routines. Sure i know there's a general idea of what these flags do...however it's tricky to discern when they toggle during the flow of battle so to speak.
Sorry...the AI is just dumb in general. I love playing RTW with great mods like EB....but it's never been because of the AI.

[AlExal]

No no. I haven't said that AI is stupid. I've just said that AI can't use elephants. For exampe it knows how to use skurmish cav or archers. Right? It doesn't make archers charge melee. It uses them in a right way. Some people say that in vanilla AI general uses elephants in best way. And in most AI mods he doesn't know what to do with them.
Mod is nearley perfect, and I enjoy playing it because I like history of those times, atmospere it creates. I can't name all it's features)
But this thread is about AI. Right? So I post my questions about it there.

[Lgk]

...or do you just want them to barrel into battle lines and missiles be damned?

If you ask me - yes, "missiles be damned". Elephants tend to lose most shootouts anyway. Esp stupid if they try it vs velites and artillery.

I found that increased "stat_charge_distance" in EDU forces them to make at least one initial charge, but after disengaging they love to bunch aside and start playing Robin Hood yet again. AI = Artificial Idiot.

[Lysander13]

No no. I haven't said that AI is stupid. I've just said that AI can't use elephants. For exampe it knows how to use skurmish cav or archers. Right? It doesn't make archers charge melee. It uses them in a right way. Some people say that in vanilla AI general uses elephants in best way. And in most AI mods he doesn't know what to do with them.
Mod is nearley perfect, and I enjoy playing it because I like history of those times, atmospere it creates. I can't name all it's features)
But this thread is about AI. Right? So I post my questions about it there.

My pardons friend...I did not mean to come across rather gruff so to speak, if that's what you inferred. I assure you that was not my intent. I was bored at work and went on a rant apparantly but i understood perfectly what you were saying. By all means friend, feel free to discuss all things AI related in this thread. You make a good point on how the elephants were used in Vanilla and how it differs from their use in AI mods, for example like Darth's & Sinuhet's. In vanilla, if i recall correctly, elephants were pretty much grouped in with regular cavalry. Which was why they charged in and didn't bother too much with skirmishing and the same could be said with skirmishing type cavalry for that matter, if i recall correctly. I remember people complaining that skirmishers didn't bother to skirmish. Where as in AI mods, the formations have been a bit more specialized and elephants have been assigned to skirmisher blocks for the most part along with perhaps chariots, missile infantry, or perhaps other missile cavalry depending on the formation and the formation block. The aim being for them to discharge their missiles and in the case of elephants and let's say horse archers or other missile cavalry, to charge in when they had spent a good amount of their ammunition, instead of charging in from the outset. At the same time, in the case of Sinuhet's Formations, manipulate the default_melee_state flag within the formation to influence skirmisher block behaviour..i.e.skirmish..fire_at_will..
engage_at_will..etc..Depending on the purpose flag.

Well it's pretty much been my experience that this works out pretty well. However, if i had to name a culprit as to perhaps why on occasions the AI doesn't seem to know what to do with elephants. I would guess it's because of the unit classification of heavy cavalry for elephants. In AI mods, like i said they are placed in skirmisher blocks...in EB's AI ( by AI i'm referring to descr_formations_ai.txt, BTW ) they are placed in their own block within a given formation, as oppose to being part of a skirmisher block, if i recall correctly. However, in both, they are placed in those respective blocks under unit_type elephants. Where as in vanilla there is no such occurrence in the descr_formations_ai.txt file. They are simply labeled as cavalry or heavy cavalry and are placed in blocks within the formations as such. BTW, the same is true for heavy_chariots. Perhaps the unit_type elephants tag, as it's relative to the formation blocks, confuses the AI on how exactly to utilize this unit. Don't get me wrong it is a working tag/code of course, in the sense that it places the elephants in the respective blocks when called upon. I'm only saying it wasn't used in vanilla as elephants and chariots for that matter, were classified as cavalry, heavy cavalry, and in the case of chariots a few instances of missile cavalry. Just an observation.....

Originally Posted by Lgk

If you ask me - yes, "missiles be damned". Elephants tend to lose most shootouts anyway. Esp stupid if they try it vs velites and artillery.

Right....Especially in EB where their not unstoppable M1 Abrams Tanks.

I found that increased "stat_charge_distance" in EDU forces them to make at least one initial charge, but after disengaging they love to bunch aside and start playing Robin Hood yet again. AI = Artificial Idiot.

I've toyed around alot with the stat_charge_distance stat in the EDU and to be honest, i'm not really sure it's worth the trouble. BTW Lgk, nice tip in the Steppe expansion thread.....

[AlExal]

Thanks, everything is clear now.
So i can make elephants attack immidiately by putting them in one group with
ordinary cav?
It's only my opinion, but i still think that missle attack is secondary for them. They do extremly little damage with their bows and they can't stand agains group of peltasts or archers. They stand aside and allow to drive them crazy with the help of firing missles.
So do i have to edit descr_formations_ai?

[Lysander13]

Thanks, everything is clear now.
So i can make elephants attack immidiately by putting them in one group with
ordinary cav?
It's only my opinion, but i still think that missle attack is secondary for them. They do extremly little damage with their bows and they can't stand agains group of peltasts or archers. They stand aside and allow to drive them crazy with the help of firing missles.
So do i have to edit descr_formations_ai?

Right...to try out what your saying with Sinuhet's formations you would have to do a small alteration to the descr_formations_ai.txt file. I'm at work right now, so unfortunately I cannot give you an example of the code. But I assure you is very simple, if you would like to give it a try.
I'm not sure if your going to know what I'm talking about..but here goes...in the formations ai file..go to the skirmisher block of each formation and simply comment out all instances of unit_type elephants by using... ; of course. I can't think of any conflicts off hand at the moment but doing this should revert elephant units to be assigned to cavalry blocks as oppose to the skirmisher block..since in the EDU their classified as heavy cavalry. Test it out and see what you think..Let me know how it goes...I'll be curious to know what you think...

[AlExal]

So first of all I've tried to fix Darth 2nd Version.
That's my first experience in modding so the result of my efforts is quite poor(
Nevertheless it seems that elephants started to act a bit more like cav, not like missile inf.
So I deleted elephants from any block with missile inf and put it with cav.
Could someone more expirienced in modding have a look at my work?
Or is there anywhere some kind of manual about modding AI?

[Decimus Attius Arbiter]

Bravo on Darthmod for phalanx factions. I need to do more testing. But I noticed a dramatic difference playing Selukeia against Makedon in custom battles. The enemy kept its formation approaching me. The light spearmen did not try to run in front of its fellow phalanx and tried to attack my flanks.

My theory is that Sinhuet's seems to be better for player factions like Rome or maybe Aedui or Arverni. I never got massive RTW 1.0 spreading playing as them like I did as the Selukids. Darth's seems great with phalanxes. Finally hammer and anvil tactics.

[delablake]

thank you very much, I'll go and try this out in my new campaign!

And this is for you:

[Lysander13]

So first of all I've tried to fix Darth 2nd Version.
That's my first experience in modding so the result of my efforts is quite poor(
Nevertheless it seems that elephants started to act a bit more like cav, not like missile inf.
So I deleted elephants from any block with missile inf and put it with cav.
Could someone more expirienced in modding have a look at my work?
Or is there anywhere some kind of manual about modding AI?

Fix??...What do you mean by fix?
I'm going to assume you mean that you attempted what i suggested to you in a previous post. You don't have to delete anything persay and you don't have to put them in any other block. As by commenting out this line they should revert back to being used in the formations as cavalry in the respective cavalry blocks. All you have to do is comment out the elephant line in the skirmisher block by using a semicolon ( ; )...( without the parenthesis ) at the beginning of each line with an instance of unit_type elephant in the skirmisher block of each formation. Note: I've never experimented with this, therefore i'm not sure of how it's going to look or play on the battlefield with these particular formations ; as i happen to like them right where they are, but in Vanilla they were not used in skirmish blocks per say, as the unit_type elephant wasn't used, if i recall correctly and by default would get assigned to cavalry blocks. I only made this suggestion to you, so you could test it and see if you happen to like it better. If your still having a problem doing this...I'll give you an example of the code later on, if you'd still like to do it yourself. ( I'm using a blackberry right now and it's a pain just to type this.. )

@ Decimus Attius Arbiter & delablake....

[Lysander13]

@ AlExal
Here's an example of code for a skirmisher block in Sinuhet's Formations. Notice the unit_type elephants line.

;; Skirmishing and front attack
		begin_block 0
			max_units			3			
			not_general
			unit_type			elephants		1.0
			unit_type			heavy_chariots		1.0
			unit_type			missile cavalry		0.9
			unit_type			skirmish infantry	0.6
			unit_type			chanting_screeching 0.5
			default_melee_state	fire_at_will_and_defend_and_skirmish
			block_formation		line
			block_relative_pos	0 0.0 0.0
			inter_unit_spacing	4.0
			priority			1.0
		end_block

Here is the same block of code with the unit_type elephants line commented out.

;; Skirmishing and front attack
		begin_block 0
			max_units			3			
			not_general
			;unit_type			elephants		1.0
			unit_type			heavy_chariots		1.0
			unit_type			missile cavalry		0.9
			unit_type			skirmish infantry	0.6
			unit_type			chanting_screeching 0.5
			default_melee_state	fire_at_will_and_defend_and_skirmish
			block_formation		line
			block_relative_pos	0 0.0 0.0
			inter_unit_spacing	4.0
			priority			1.0
		end_block

Notice the only difference in the second example is the use of the semicolon at the beginning of the unit_type elephants line. The compiler will now disregard this line and skip on to the next. Add this semicolon to every instance of unit_type elephants using your text editor ( such as notepad )
and all elephants should now revert back to being deployed like heavy cavalry, as they were in vanilla. Keep in mind these formations were designed and tested with the unit_types within the formation blocks as they currently stand. However, if you'd like to try this out for yourself...By all means friend...go right ahead.

[Hooahguy]

just one question: is this save-game compatible?
and whats the difference between the two ai formation mods?

[Lysander13]

just one question: is this save-game compatible?
and whats the difference between the two ai formation mods?

Yes it is.
Their are some differences in the manner in which each formation mod is coded. However, as for performance differences, that's a matter of opinion. Some like Darth...Some like Sinuhet...I'd suggest to try them both and decide for yourself friend....

[Hooahguy]

which is more stable?

[Lysander13]

Stability is not an issue in either case. They both work perfectly fine.

[Boyar Son]

If the installer says I require a password but a choice to skip (i skipped all of them for each formation) does that mean I have done some thing wrong?

Maybe the proof that it is correct is the fact that my troops are better organized, there are no pre-battle speech, and my Roman front line starts with guard mode (fire at will too?) and the second line has fire at will on, and battles seem harder ( but it might not and just be the same thing).

BUT: If the installer says I require a password but a choice to skip (i skipped all of them for each formation) does that mean I have done some thing wrong?

[Lysander13]

If the installer says I require a password but a choice to skip (i skipped all of them for each formation) does that mean I have done some thing wrong?

Maybe the proof that it is correct is the fact that my troops are better organized, there are no pre-battle speech, and my Roman front line starts with guard mode (fire at will too?) and the second line has fire at will on, and battles seem harder ( but it might not and just be the same thing).

BUT: If the installer says I require a password but a choice to skip (i skipped all of them for each formation) does that mean I have done some thing wrong?

Installer says you require a password but your given a choice to skip them all, which you did for each formation?????
I'm afraid i have no idea what your talking about.
I did not put these files in an installer; they are contained within a zip file and they certainly do not require any password to access. To install, you unzip into your EB/data folder and click yes to overwrite when prompted to. These files do not affect anything other than formations and formation buttons for the UI.

[Boyar Son]

well the last paragraph was just so you know what happened when I played with the formations supposedly "installed"...

I think its installed because in the armies my infantry are set in a historicaly plausible formation....

-BUT- I'm just not sure with the installer asking me for a _password_. And you didnt say anything about a _password_ so I assumed I did it wrong... and I didnt click "overwrite" anywhere....

Really did I do it or not? because there are changes, but it happened with installing it a different way

[Lysander13]

well the last paragraph was just so you know what happened when I played with the formations supposedly "installed"...

I think its installed because in the armies my infantry are set in a historicaly plausible formation....

-BUT- I'm just not sure with the installer asking me for a _password_. And you didnt say anything about a _password_ so I assumed I did it wrong... and I didnt click "overwrite" anywhere....

Really did I do it or not? because there are changes, but it happened with installing it a different way

Do you happen to have Windows Vista as your OS? If so, i'm not yet familiar with the particulars of Vista as i'm holding on to my trusty XP OS for the time being. Perhaps asking you for a password is a security feature of sorts on your system. Other than that, i'm not really sure why your being asked for a password as these files are not password protected. BTW, as a rule, i don't think file sharing sites like filefront for example, allow password protected files to be uploaded on their sites.

Anyhow, to verify you have installed;
Go to....Your Rome Installation/EB/data folder and open the descr_formations_ai.txt file with a text editor. ( ie..notepad )
If at the top of the file you don't see anything referencing Darth Formations 16.2 or Sinuhet Battle Formations ( depending on which one you attempted to install ) then it did not install correctly and it's a safe bet the other files associated with this addon did not install correctly either.

[Boyar Son]

I have XP.

Ya it asked me for a password each time for each install (even tho I only installed darth's).

I'll try what you said, but these formations in game look diffenerent and historically plausible, who knows?

Thanks for the support and giving me these formations!

[Hooahguy]

this is a bump for olly to easily find this.....

[olly]

Cheers fella

[phonicsmonkey]

thanks lysander13, this is great!

[mlc82]

Just saying thanks for this!

[worlddomination88]

So the AI is smarter with the Darth mod formations. Does this apply to 1.0?
And if im not mistaking somebody said that they tweaked things for battle formations in 1.0. Is the Darth mod formation still better than 1.0??

Or should I just leave it alone and keep playing 1.0

[Ludens]

Yes, this mod works with 1.0, and I think that the A.I. performs a little better. The R:TW will never win any prizes, but with Darth's or Sinuhet's formations it's a bit more proactive.

[olly]

Hello

These two mini mods have greatly improved the fun I have had but in the last couple of weeks I have been using Alexander instead of BI. How would these mods work with Alex?

Thanks

[NEver]

They work the same, pretty much. Unit size affects them more than anything.

[Leão magno]

Ave Lysander13, are those links bellow your sig updated? Or should I make some manual updates?