General Discussion

[Sarmatian]

can it be coded that they start as vassal?

My thoughts exactly

and another question - for coders - would it be a good idea (and can it be coded) to make a rebellion after faction leader dies (lets say that we make a 60% or 70% chance that after faction leaders die a stack or 2 of rebel armies spawn in your land to simulate the instability of states back then and feudal anarchy - remember what happened to Serbia and Hungary after 2 great kings -Ludovik and Dusan - died)

Good idea, but I doubt it can be implemented properly.

[Tsar]

If you think that Bosnia should be in what religion should be official: catholic or orthodox?

[matko]

If you think that Bosnia should be in what religion should be official: catholic or orthodox?

Bosnian kings were "officially" catholic, but "unofficially" supported krstjani. how about making new religion for bosnia ? Crkva Bosanska ( ) were considered as heretic by both Pope and SPC (srpska pravoslavna).

[Vla_86]

Bosnian kings were "officially" catholic, but "unofficially" supported krstjani. how about making new religion for bosnia ? Crkva Bosanska ( ) were considered as heretic by both Pope and SPC (srpska pravoslavna).

This is very hard to explain.All three curches were present in Bosnia in 14th century (Serbian Orthodox,Roman Catolic and Bogumils).I think,there could be no official religion,if you decide to make Bosnia as faction(by the way,I am against making Bosnia as faction).Bosnian church lasted for a short time and never had a proper influence.Later on,bogumils accepted Islam or other Christian religions.Today you have living proofs of Catolic and Orthodox churches in Bosnia,built in medieval period and bogumils were considered as heretic..So,why should you put them in the game?I think,this could only make trouble for the coders,who are working on this mod.

[Tsar]

Bosnian kings were "officially" catholic, but "unofficially" supported krstjani. how about making new religion for bosnia ? Crkva Bosanska ( ) were considered as heretic by both Pope and SPC (srpska pravoslavna).

You see Matko, I ask this because, this will be another thing why not include Bosnia. You said "catholic" If bosnian king accept to be catholic (politics and power) that doesn't mean that BIG majority of the population did same. And I think that wouldn't be fair that we have two serbian factions(Tsardom of Serbia and Kingdom of Bosnia)

read this:
SREDNJOVEKOVNA "BOSANSKA CRKVA" BILA JE PRAVOSLAVNA
NAPISAO
DR VASO GLUŠAC.

Serb Land of Bosnia

[matko]

This is very hard to explain.All three curches were present in Bosnia in 14th century (Serbian Orthodox,Roman Catolic and Bogumils).I think,there could be no official religion,if you decide to make Bosnia as faction(by the way,I am against making Bosnia as faction).Bosnian church lasted for a short time and never had a proper influence.Later on,bogumils accepted Islam or other Christian religions.Today you have living proofs of Catolic and Orthodox churches in Bosnia,built in medieval period and bogumils were considered as heretic..So,why should you put them in the game?I think,this could only make trouble for the coders,who are working on this mod.

Bosnian church (Crkva Bosanska) appeared at the time of ban Kulin and ceased to exist somewhere after 15 century. so it is present during whole time Bosnian state existed. in fact this is one of unique features that the state. and dont call them bogumils, in fact they didnt have much in common with bogumil heresy in bulgaria. they called themselves Krstjani, so should we also call them that name.

- why problems for coders? - there are already heretics in game. and my opinion is that they should be made as a heretic state. if that is possible (we will have to ask coders).
if it is not possible then we can make a that king is catholic (and Stjepan Kotromanic was) and population is mixed catholic-orthodox with lot of heretics (unfortunately none has a clue how many percent which church -we can even make compromise 33% C, 33% O, 33% heretic). but Bosnian kingdom will have more than one province and that means that we can make very detailed religious composition. central province the - Central Bosnia - is mostly heretic, any province eastern ans south of it will have a large procent of orthodox, and western and northern province will have lots of catholics. so i don't see where is the problem.
and we could make nice traits for kings - like - "secret heretic", or "heretic supporter", or even - "sympathy for orthodox church" - that will lower piety.

To Tsar:

i wouldnt call Bosnia a "Serbian state". id prefer neutral term "south Slavic".
but please NO POLITICS in this mod (or we will have an mini war here because some people consider Bosnia as Croatian land, and some prefer some other ideas (Bosnian nation )... so please i dont want a discussion about origin of Bosnian state and people here. There were some really nasty fights on TWC and other forums about this subject. so i beg you, this is not the place or the time.

it cannot be proved that Bosnian church (Krstjani) were orthodox (actually nothing can be proved - not enough sources from period).
only thing we are certain is that they were considered to be heretics by whole world.

and even if we accept a hypothetical situation that B is a "Serbian state" i dont see how is this unfair- there were 4 "italian" factions in vanilla (Pope, Venice, Milan, Sicily).
and political fragmentation is one of Balkan specialties

We re here to make a historically realistic mod ! that means everyone gets the same (equal) treatment. no privileges. and Bosnian kingdom existed at the time mod starts and lasts longer than Serbian Tsardom/Despotate.

PS.
And one more thing - there wont be a "Bosnian kingdom" - but "Banate of Bosnia" - Tvrtko was the first king and mod starts before he was crowned. so we will have Bans not kings.

[Vla_86]

I like the suggestion about making a compromise for religions.That would be the best.I really would not like to argue about the origin of Bosnian state.And I saw,what happened on TWC..That was really bad I was born in Bosnia ( near Banja Luka ) and I have heard thousand of versions about Bosnian origin,and to whom this land belongs.I agree..We do not need politics here,that's not our problem

[matko]

and it is just how the game starts. you can change everything. if you play as Serbia, you can raise an army, conquer Bosnia and make it 95% orthodox if you wish. this is what the game is really about. changing the region, making an empire !

[Sarmatian]

and it is just how the game starts. you can change everything. if you play as Serbia, you can raise an army, conquer Bosnia and make it 95% orthodox if you wish. this is what the game is really about. changing the region, making an empire !

... And hope that Venice doesn't make you stop, as happened historically

[Vazul's Ghost]

Hurray! Feudalism Total war returns!!!!!!

[Milos98]

Im not sure about the idea of adding bosnia,... we could add croatia as vassal faction to hungary. But bosnia as a faction? If we added a heretic faction (bogumils) named bosnia, it wouldnt be historically correct. In that case we should consider ading Dubrovnik faction. But I doubt that either of those two factions could EVER control the whole balkans.
So to make myself short; im against adding Bosnia as a faction.

[King Orko]

Bosnia is a good idea for a faction
BTW what about that:
if you conquer a certain amount of provinces you can be a tsar/emperor?

[Milos98]

If we want Bosnia in TTW, We should consider adding Zeta faction, Zahumlje faction (Herzegovina), Dubrovnik faction and some others. They all have common chance of conquering Balkans. We cant be selective if we want HISTORICAL mod.

PS Matko, there is no historically correct compromise.

[King Orko]

If we want Bosnia in TTW, We should consider adding Zeta faction, Zahumlje faction (Herzegovina), Dubrovnik faction and some others. They all have common chance of conquering Balkans. We cant be selective if we want HISTORICAL mod.

PS Matko, there is no historically correct compromise.

Bosnia was WEIGH more important than these factions.

[Milos98]

Bosnia was WEIGH more important than these factions.

Important doesent mean military strong, unified ,...etc
Christian majority surely wouldnt allow public heretic ruler to rule, and bosnia was a part of Hungary,...OK if you dont understand what do I want to say, I will put it this way; You cant make todays BIH attack for example serbia, or croatia. But you can make a PART of bosnia attack serbia or croatia, but about the consequences...I dont want to speak about. The same thing was back in 14 cent.
You know what I mean .
We could make them as a faction, but consider that as a nonhistoricall mod,

I need some air...

[matko]

there is no Zeta or Hum in 1345. there even isn't Croatia in 1345. "Problem" with Dubrovnik is that they were never interested in expansion and didn't have much army. But Bosnian state was interested in expansion in every direction, and Stjepan II Kotromanic and Tvrtko doubled its territory. Stjepan II captured Završje and Krajina (between Cetina and Ston).Tvrtko conquered all Dalmatia from Zadar (including castles - Knin, Ostrovica, Klis ; cities Split, Trogir, Šibenik and islands Hvar, Brač - they even possessed navy !) to Ston.
And Crossed Drina river (and had controll over Podrinje and Milesevo) and proclaimed himself a king of the Serbs. So Tvrtko had some intentions to rule at least a part of Serbia. He died too early. What if he didn't ?

Bosnia at least in this part of their history played important part. And they showed that they had the ambition to want more.

In Croatia (Tvrtko also proclaimed himself to be king of Croatia and Dalmatia - his mother was from Šubić family and he wanted their legacy) T. supported rebellion against Sigismund of Luxembourg - which almost succeed - Sigismund and his army in the end didn't managed to defeat Bosnians until Tvrtko's death. His main (Tvrtko's) ally and later commander of one of his armies was Ivan de Palina (od Paližne -one who led detachment of hospitallers in the battle of Kosovo -under command of Vlatko Vuković) who was at the same time prior of Vrana (fortress near Zadar) and commander of knights Hospitallers in Croatia. -What ?- we have a knight of Order of Saint John of Jerusalem leading an army from a heretic land - and hospitallers in Bosnian army ???
-isn't that too interesting to be left out ? complex - yes but that is the point !!

Are you all afraid that your Tsardom is going to be overshadowed by Bosnian Banate? Don't you like a little challenge ?

and to remind you that this is the best illumination of an knight in full armor in
whole region.... enjoy - this if what historians call - a first class source.

-------

PS. im not from Bosnia, and no one from my family is from there.
PPS. if you really want to add Croatia go ahead

TO MILOS - unified - which feudal state in 14 century was unified ?? France ? Holy Roman Empire ?
Byzant ? - it is time of civil wars in Byzant - pretenders to the throne slaughtering each other (Kantakouzenos (allied to Turks) against John V Palaiologos ) - so we should left them out ?

Bosnia was unified as a country could be at the time - it had a king, an army, a currency, laws ....
Bosnian people had 3 different religions, so what ?

"part of Bosnia" - you mean mighty feudal lords acting on their own ? again you name a country in Europe that didn't have them in 14 century. if you are interested were there any civil wars in Bosnia in 14 century - YES - but not people vs people but pretenders to the throne and feudal lords vs each other. But this happened in all countries!

"nonhistorical" . WHY ? where is the problem ? A country with Catholic king and its population divided in three different faiths - why is that unhistorical ?



I'm worried -what do they teach you all in schools about middle ages in Balkan ?

[Vazul's Ghost]

I don't know much about the history of Bosnia, and i don't want to offend anyone by saying this but; a heretical faction would be EXTREMELY interesting and unique. I haven't seen a single other mod that has such a thing, and since Bosnia would be a relatively small faction if it is included, then it would have its own uniqueness to it if it was heretical. besides if it hails to its own religion you wouldn't have to worry about it being too much of a threat to the surrounding factions, who would all have a different religion to it and thus make it harder for bosnia to control its people. On the other hand, if your going for extreme historical accuracy then i guess it sounds like bosnia should be excluded, do what you judge best i just thought i'd voice my opinion.

[matko]

if we go to extreme historical accuracy than Bosnia has to be in. But in this case king will be catholic and most of his followers not.

TO OTHERS MOD MEMBERS. Most of us is from x-yugoslavia. my english is not so good. so to prevent any future misunderstandings we could discuss this in our language inside dev forum. I will make a new thread about bosnia tomorrow. then we can in peace make our arguments. and I will draw a map of bosnian state with provinces (i neznam kako da ovo na engleskom kazem - bit ce na mapi za svaku provinciju postoci koliko ljudu pripada kojoj vjeri - kad sve izvedemo na cistac vidjet cete da se sve mozemo dogovoriti).

[Milos98]

1. Sorry for my bad english
2. You cant compare "The mighty banate of Bosnia" to "weak bizantium", and to France...
3. Who said that I WANT to add croatia ?
4.

Are you all afraid that your Tsardom is going to be overshadowed by Bosnian Banate? Don't you like a little challenge ?

If we add bosnia, the gameplay will be better im sure of that, but still, we can make even bigger challange and say
Are you all afraid that your Tsardom is going do be totally destroyed by some dubrovnik city?

I think my question has more challenge.

5.Matko, you talk so much that I cant understand anymore, what do you want. Do you want faction "banat of bosnia" with bosniak population with catholic religion, or you want "kingdom of bosnia" (Tvrtko became a king in 1377 year ) with sheep population and heretic religion. Do you want bosnia to be vassal to Hungary or not? You want bosnia to have Hospitallers ?

6.So you want to say that Tvrtko would attack serbia if he lived long enough and had a chance? That is true, but why didnt he reinforce Vlatko Vukovics army and he could instead helping serbs on Kosovo, conquer Serbia, I think that would be a great chance.
He died in 1391, right? So he had a chance to attack weakend Serbia.
There can be only two reasons for it;
He wasnt military strong or
He didnt want to conquer Serbian lands. He went conquering (1391) Split, Trogir, Šibenik,... like you said.
I know that they hade solid military and won some battles against hungary, but we are talking about year 1345.

Yes, I know, he would surely attack serbia, if he lived some years more, but it would be a catastrophy. The Turks would "cut his head of and spit on his neck ". If Tsar Dusan lived few years more, he would conquer vienna and constantinople.


7.Dubrovnik

"Problem" with Dubrovnik is that they were never interested in expansion and didn't have much army.

Yes, but we can allow player to decide if he likes expansion of Dubrovnik, can we?
OK, lets forget Dubrovnik, im not going to mention it anymore.

8.

"part of Bosnia" - you mean mighty feudal lords acting on their own ? again you name a country in Europe that didn't have them in 14 century. if you are interested were there any civil wars in Bosnia in 14 century - YES - but not people vs people but pretenders to the throne and feudal lords vs each other. But this happened in all countries!

In the case if we add bosnia, I suggest that (if it is possible), to allow player to choose wich religion bosnia will be, (like in RTW:BI) and for example if you choose heretic, there would be rebelion from christian side, and opposite.


History about middle ages in Balkan are different in serbian, bosnian and croatian schools, I think you could learn that by now.

I dont want to argue about it any more, if the team chooses to add bosnia, I will have to add it.

[matko]

1. my englis isnt perfect either
2. that was not the point.
3.then dont
4.dubrovnik as a faction. actually that could be a good idea. IF you can make their diplomacy to be very peaceful and defensive. so they are interested in diplomacy and trade.
5.yes i talk much. in 1345 Bosnia is a Banate (Banovina), officially Catholic but large procent of population are Krstjani. and the king is actually very friendly to heretics. B is a Hungarian vassal.
6.we will newer know what would happened. Balkan kings and tsars have tendency to die too early.
7. same as 4
8."In the case if we add bosnia, I suggest that (if it is possible), to allow player to choose which religion bosnia will be, (like in RTW:BI) and for example if you choose heretic, there would be rebellion from christian side, and opposite."
- if you can make that it would be great

[Vla_86]

This disussion about Bosnia lasts more then 5 days.So,are you gonna tell me..What's the final decision? Are we going to have Bosnia as faction or not???

[King Orko]

This disussion about Bosnia lasts more then 5 days.So,are you gonna tell me..What's the final decision? Are we going to have Bosnia as faction or not???

it depends when Phoenix is here.
I don't see hin recantly.
but he sent me a PM yesterday.

[Sarmatian]

Well, I am all for inclusion of Bosnia. We have to debate among ourselves some more, but 99% Bosnia will be in.

Even if we put aside the fact that Bosnia was pretty expansive in that time period, we need a faction on west of Serbia to limit early Serbian expansion west. Bosnia being a vassal of Hungary will make this even harder. In 1345. Balkan isn't a very interesting place. Serbia is top dog. East of Serbia is a weak Bulgaria (after Velbuzhd), south is crumbling Byzantium. If there is nothing west, if we put rebels there, it's gonna be to easy for Serbia to expand there. If we put Bosnia under Hungarian rule, it's gonna make it too strong because they are already in favourable position since map ends with them... So, Bosnia as a Hungarian vassal, will force Serbian expansion south as happened in reality and put it in direct confrontation with byzantium and ottomans...

Bosnia is a good idea, both from historical and gameplay point of view.

[Vla_86]

Your explanation sounds very good.That's gonna make playing with Serbia even more interesting.It wouldn't be too interesting,if you could make a thrue empire with Serbia in several turns.Personally,I like it and bearly can wait to fight the Ottomans.Have you thought about adding Karaman in Asia Minor? They were very important in these period.

[King Orko]

Somethinng about Wallachia:
It only held HALF of the size of the Romanian Province.

[matko]

BOSNIA is in. jeey !!

now we have other things to discuss.

1. Timurids - we totally forgot about them ! they need to be added to faction list. they might be "the saviors of Balkan" as they will cruelly back stab Turks in 1400's.

2. Dubrovnik. maybe a faction D is too much. but we should think how do we make them stay alive for at least a while. if they are a rebel settlement Serbs or Bosnians or Venice will conquer the city in a few turns.

[Sarmatian]

BOSNIA is in. jeey !!

now we have other things to discuss.

1. Timurids - we totally forgot about them ! they need to be added to faction list. they might be "the saviors of Balkan" as they will cruelly back stab Turks in 1400's.

2. Dubrovnik. maybe a faction D is too much. but we should think how do we make them stay alive for at least a while. if they are a rebel settlement Serbs or Bosnians or Venice will conquer the city in a few turns.

I don't know about Timurids. Their clash with Ottomans was more of a personal conflict between Beyazid and Timur than organised campaign in Asia Minor. After Ankara, Timur didn't continue his conquest, instead he turned back. In the long run that battle didn't really change anything. We could represent them as horde, but then we could see Timurid Venice, and I don't think that's a good thing.

2. Dubrovnik is a good idea but in a game like EU3. In total war engine, factions like Ragusa can not be represented truthfully. If we create it as a faction with weak army, it's still gonna get conquered. If we give it a larger army, we could see Dubrovnik empire which would again be unhistorical. I think we should leave Ragusa out, at least for v1.00, until we see if we can implement it properly. If we are going to create a faction which will be destroyed in i first couple of turns in 99% of the cases, than its's a waste of time...

[Vazul's Ghost]

Are you going to use some of the skins we saw in the previews of feudalism total war in this mod?, or is it a clean slate. Also, are you going to modify the textures for already existing factions e.g. hungary, byzantium, ottomans, and if you do will you use the works of other modders like white wolf and csatadi, or make your own? sorry about the barrage of questions, but its just exciting that a balcan mod is finally being made.

[phoenix[illusion]]

We'll make totally new textures, some models. All textures from FTW are about Novgorod, Moscow and Bulgaria. That texture won't be in use. No texture pack nor other textures in other mod will be used in this mod. So totally new textures!

[matko]

Sarmatian:
Timurids - make them unplayable - just to give Turks a hard time. they spawn a stack or 2 in Asia minor.

Dubrovnik - thats a hard one - i think that whole decision depends on if it is possible to make their diplomacy right.


Vazul's Ghost

I'm glad you are excited. I'm to.